Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Newbie
Jan 5, 2015
5 posts
Mississauga, ON
djino wrote:
Jan 7th, 2015 11:30 am
The prosecutor will likely offer a reduced charge. Whatever is offered, will likely be a minor conviction, but still a conviction that could have an affect on your next insurance renewal. If you are satisfied with that, then you should wait to meet with the prosecutor and accept a deal.

If you are not fine with that, then you will deny the deal with the prosecutor, which will mean a trial date will later be set. You would then later file your request for disclosure. Once received, we can then discuss your options for trial. Since as you say, that its already taking a considerable amount of time to meet with the prosecutor, this may mean you'll have a trial date set for a time that could be cause for unreasonable delay.

djino
"Hope that helps"
Thanks Djino. It's approaching 7 weeks since I mailed the ticket in and no response yet regarding a date to meet with the prosecutor. I'll continue to wait but I will be looking for a reduction as you mentioned and if not satisfied, take the steps you outlined. Thanks for your response.
Member
Mar 5, 2011
216 posts
12 upvotes
Toronto
I have a speeding ticket and a court date set for early Feb. I also already received my disclosure. If I decide to just try to get the charge lessened, is it too late to avoid the trial by meeting with a prosecutor?
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14136 posts
4921 upvotes
Gatineau
helenhelen wrote:
Jan 7th, 2015 3:37 pm
I have a speeding ticket and a court date set for early Feb. I also already received my disclosure. If I decide to just try to get the charge lessened, is it too late to avoid the trial by meeting with a prosecutor?
Since you have received disclosure, my assumption is that you have the prosecutor's contact information. Why not give them a call?

djino
Jr. Member
Mar 1, 2011
195 posts
58 upvotes
Mississauga
Hey folks,

Kudos to djino especially. So far, I want to say a BIG THANK YOU for the insights you give others to prepare for their trial. I just had my trial today and long story short it got ended up adjourned to August 2015. Yes that's right... 7 months from now...that's about 10 months from the alleged offence for speeding in October 2014.

On the legal side, here's what I experienced:

I received the notice of trial in the mail on November 13, 2014 stating that my trial date is January 7, 2014. On the same day, I requested the disclosure by fax. As advised by djino, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR EMAIL OR PHONE NUMBER. ONLY LEAVE YOUR MAILING ADDRESS.

DO NOT USE THE DISCLOSURE REQUEST FORMS FROM THE CITY

USE YOUR OWN CUSTOM FORM AS DJINO MENTIONED

ASK FOR SPECIFIC THINGS THAT YOU FIND RELEVANT TO YOUR CASE SO THAT YOU CAN PREPARE A FULL DEFENCE

Let the prosecutor work for your money ;)

On November 21, 2014, I received a letter from the prosecutor stating that they are in receipt of the disclosure request but they cannot send it by mail. :facepalm: Okay so analysis here is that why the hell did you mail me a letter just to stay that versus mailing the disclosure already? LOL. Anyways, they pressed for either pick up, fax or email. Don't get intimidated folks.

On the same day, I send a second request stating the same things except added the reasons why disclosure by registered mail is a must.

Reasons:

- I live a considerable distance from the place of the court where the trial is held (100+ km one way)
- I do not have a fax at home to receive the fax. (In order for me to send a fax, I went to the nearest Canada Post Office in which I had to pay every time. Oh well. At least this gives you a nice papertrail to prove that you sent it. You get a fax confirmation sheet)
- Because of email security concerns and the disclosure contains confidential information. Email transmission is not the best choice. When I took a look at the Privacy Policy of the municipal government (Niagara Region) it said that
Senders of messages should be aware that personal and other information contained in electronic correspondence (or printed versions thereof) which are directed to Niagara Region are subject to Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and may be deemed releasable under this legislation, and that the anonymity or confidentiality of the sender and any information contained within the correspondence cannot be guaranteed.
Emphasize this:
and that the anonymity or confidentiality of the sender and any information contained within the correspondence cannot be guaranteed.


So far, no response was received.

I sent a third request on December 9, 2014 (4 weeks from trial date) requesting the same thing. No response was received.

On December 22, I filed my Notice of Application for Stay of Proceedings under Section 7 for non-disclosure. I didn't do the Full Monty on this one and I went with the Friendly Fax method as mentioned on the first page of this thread. I decided to take that risk. Also, do fill the affidavit and get it notarized!

At this time, nothing was heard from the prosecutor.

Part 2 - The Trial Date - January 7, 2015

Once you enter the court room ahead of schedule, you have the option to negotiate with the prosecutor for a lesser charge. I was surprised at how many people just went for the plea bargain. I was the only one who decided not to meet with the prosecutor and was ready to make some preliminary motions prior to entering a plea when I get call on the stand.

WORD OF ADVICE:

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF THE COURT OF JUSTICE ACT from the "Procedural Matters" section (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK146) and print just past section 109. You MUST include everything of section 109 because it's VERY important when you support your charter argument. I did receive flak for that part but luckily I stood ground.

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF REGULATION 200 AS WELL!!! (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/e ... 0200_e.htm) The first two pages is fine but just slightly past more than that. YOU MUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ALL OF SECTION 7 OF REGULATION 200!!!

Anyways, there were a few cases that went ahead of me and it's all of those who pleaded guilty and plea bargained with the prosecutor. After that there was a recess so that the prosecutor can meet with those who did not check in and so my name was called to see if I was there and I had to acknowledge my name. She let out an "Ai yai yai" sound and went through my file and just handed my disclosure right there :facepalm: and said that it's impossible to reach me. LOL. Right. You got my mailing address though... :facepalm:

So the court session resumed and she continued to clear those who plea bargained and it was time for those who wanted the trial. I was up first. At this time, most of the people are gone but there were a bunch of officers just watching including mine and another person who wanted a trial as well.

I take a stand and for the record of the court, they ask you what your name is and you have to respond. The JP then asked if I am familiar with the rules and how everything goes. I said "Somewhat, Your Worship." Always address the JP Your Worship. At times I ended up saying "Sir" in which he did not mind and he can tell I was actually quite nervous because it's really my first time doing something like it so the pressure was on. If I can go back in time, attend more than one court session just to get the feel of the environment. I only went one time prior to the trial date in my location just to see how things go.

He then explained the rules and procedures and asked what my plea is.

Now this was surprising....the prosecutor then jumped in to mention that I have a motion for the stay of proceedings. The real show begins here. ;)

As mentioned in the Ticket Combat website, I'll just quote from that website and it happened EXACTLY what it said.
The justice will then give you a nasty look and reach for her paperwork. She will shuffle through it looking for the motion and an affidavit. She won't find one because you didn't file it with the court.

She will then state that there is no motion before the court. Expect the prosecutor to pipe in with similar objections including the fact that he did not receive any fax (because he didn't check the inbox in his office). Be patient. Let them get it all out. Wait till they have finished raising all their objections and look to you for a response.
So now the court was surprised that I pulled something sneaky like that. Obviously the first thing the JP said was that I did not file one with the court ahead of time. I told the JP that I was aware of that and I would to file one now in the spot. I then pulled Regulation 200 out of my binder and cited Section 7. I then cited subsection 7 of section 7 "an application may be heard without notice" subsection (7a) "on consent" and subsection (7b) "where, having regard to the subject-matter or the circumstances of the application or motion, it would not be unjust to hear the application or motion without notice."

Then the prosecutor chimed in to dare say that she "only" got 5 business days notice as well and that the holidays and weekends do not count. Oh yea? Watch this...

I then pulled out section 109 of the Court of Justice Act (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK148) and stated the subsection 2.2
Time of notice
(2.2) The notice shall be served as soon as the circumstances requiring it become known and, in any event, at least fifteen days before the day on which the question is to be argued, unless the court orders otherwise. 1994, c. 12, s. 42 (1).
Emphasize the words: AT LEAST

Next, I went back to Regulation 200 and quoted Section 4, subsection 4
4. Where the days are expressed to be clear days or where the term “at least” is added, the time shall be calculated by excluding both the first day and the last day of the period. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 200, r. 4; O. Reg. 498/94, s. 2; O. Reg. 567/00, s. 1.
Then I mentioned that it never specified that holidays and weekends are excluded. Therefore, those days are to be counted as well. Then I said that I faxed the forms to the prosecutor on December 21, 2014. That is the first day and it will not be counted. Today is January 7, 2015 and the last day isn't counted either. Therefore, from December 23, 2014 to January 6, 2015 are counted.

Let's do the math...

23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Holy crap tell me the total again? 15 days right? Well within the law.

Next, the JP still said that I was supposed to file with the court ahead of time but I repeated Section 7 Subsection 7 of Regulation 200. He didn't budge and didn't gave me a good reason why. Looking back I should've asked "For the record for the court, Your Worship, does that mean the court is unwilling to give consent to hear the motion without notice? If so, what is the court's justification to say that it is unjust to hear my motion without notice?" - take note of this folks!

He Then asked if I sent the notice to the Attorney General of Ontario and Canada correctly and I said, "Yes Your Worship, I have faxed the forms to the respective fax numbers, I have the confirmation receipt stating that it transmitted fine AND I got a lawyer to notarize the affidavits. Prior to notarizing the affidavits, the lawyer verified everything and said that I did everything correctly prior to signing the document."

The JP then asked me about the disclosure and how many times I requested and if I received anything. Then I said, I didn't receive anything until the recess to which when I checked in with the prosecutor, she just handed my disclosure. His eyes lit up.

The prosecutor confirmed that she gave the disclosure to me just now. She then argued about the fiasco how it was impossible to reach me other than the mailing address. She stated that I did not provide an email, phone number and fax number. She emphasized about the fax number saying how come I was able to fax but have no number to receive. The JP nodded to the prosecutor. I then told the JP that I would like to comment on what she said and he gave me permission. I then said that "I was able to fax because I went to the nearest Canada Post Office to fax from there and I have receipts to prove so. (Yes, Canada Post charges for fax. Much cheaper than registered mail though!) I had to go there because I do not own a fax at home. That's why I am unable to receive fax."

Next, she spoke about the email and not picking up in person. I then replied that email is not secure and also it even mentioned in their Privacy Policy that transmission of data electronically does not guarantee anonymity and confidentiality. Since the disclosure contains confidential information pertaining to a court case, it is not a viable method of transmission. Regarding pick up in person, I live a considerable mileage in which I have to take time off of work in which results to lost income such as today.

This is the reasons why I find that disclosure by registered mail is the best option for both.

For this part, apparently the prosecutor mailed a second letter on December 17 to reiterate the previous letter and added that the disclosure is ready to be picked up. I was shocked when I heard this in court because I never received the letter in the mail. The prosecutor then said "That is the reason why we don't mail out disclosure."

I responded "And there is a reason why Canada Post provides something called 'Registered Mail' and 'Xpresspost' to prevent this from happening. The mail is tracked and with Xpresspost, you get a delivery certificate certifying that the letter has been delivered. Also there is a tracking number included in which the mail can be traced. Did you mail the letter with the tracking number? How can you prove that you even sent it?" The prosecutor remained silent.

The JP then said, the best call here is to adjourn the matter as you have received the disclosure and you need the time to prepare your defence. I then agreed. At this time, the future dates has been selected. The prosecutor pushed for an early date stating that the officer did attend and the prosecutor is ready for trial. The initially gave me January 26 to which I disagreed because I mentioned my work situation in which they suggested the August date. I then asked if there are any available dates after January but earlier than August because I do not want to waive my 11B rights. Then the court said that it'll have to be January 26 then. I then said, I'll just take the August. Then the JP said to clear the line of communication between the prosecutor and I. He didn't explicitly say that I must do email, fax or in person though.... I am sure you know where this will go ;) ...I knew I did nothing wrong! :)

In the end, the matter has been adjourned to August 2015.

Side story...after I left the court room, the guy who went next won because his cop didn't show up. Lucky guy! He caught up to meet me, shook my hand and asked what my name was again. He then said that "That's how it should be done! Make them work for their money!"

LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED FROM MY EXPERIENCE

- You CAN fax the prosecutor and the Attorney Generals as long you give "at least 15 days notice". The first and last day doesn't count. Therefore, the minimum total calendar days is 17 days
- To receive less flak from the JP about filing the motion and make it easier during court, just serve the court in person TBH rather than without notice. I realized that the JPs aren't up to speed with the law and process...I spent a lot of time trying to educate them with no budge.
- So, fax the prosecutor and Attorney Generals. Fax the two Attorney Generals first, complete the affidavits and get it notarized, then fax the prosecutor the same thing but add the fax receipts and affidavits of both Attorney Generals to prove that you served them already

- Next, go to the court to serve them. Complete another affidavit and get it notarized to say that you served the prosecutor as well.
- Do all of this minimum 17 calendar days ahead of your trial date

More fun part

I got my disclosure but obviously didn't get everything I asked for. I only got the handwritten notes (In which I said three FREAKING times to type it in the first place...and the reason was to avoid the problems of reading chicken scratch. My cop's notes are hard to read...can't understand everything), driver's abstract, and manual on how to test the lidar device. I asked a whole other list to help me set my FULL DEFENCE in which I didn't get anything.

Time to turn the heat up.

Until next time!
Jr. Member
Mar 1, 2011
195 posts
58 upvotes
Mississauga
Folks,

Just to add one more point and I wish I knew about this prior to the trial. Taken from website Highwaytrafficact.com

[QUOTE]not to take ANYTHING from the prosecutor on the day of trial - he can slip the disclosure, one of the dirty tactics employed by crown prosecutors we have heard about.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much if you attempted to File a Section 7 for non disclosure like me, DO NOT BOTHER CHECKING IN WITH THE PROSECUTOR AT ALL. JUST WAIT TILL YOUR NAME IS CALLED OUT TO TAKE THE STAND DURING COURT IS IN SESSION.

Don't see the prosecutor during recess!
Deal Addict
Jul 3, 2006
1686 posts
320 upvotes
LJ_Gencoupe wrote:
Jan 7th, 2015 6:19 pm
Hey folks,

Kudos to djino especially. So far, I want to say a BIG THANK YOU for the insights you give others to prepare for their trial. I just had my trial today and long story short it got ended up adjourned to August 2015. Yes that's right... 7 months from now...that's about 10 months from the alleged offence for speeding in October 2014.

On the legal side, here's what I experienced:

I received the notice of trial in the mail on November 13, 2014 stating that my trial date is January 7, 2014. On the same day, I requested the disclosure by fax. As advised by djino, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR EMAIL OR PHONE NUMBER. ONLY LEAVE YOUR MAILING ADDRESS.

DO NOT USE THE DISCLOSURE REQUEST FORMS FROM THE CITY

USE YOUR OWN CUSTOM FORM AS DJINO MENTIONED

ASK FOR SPECIFIC THINGS THAT YOU FIND RELEVANT TO YOUR CASE SO THAT YOU CAN PREPARE A FULL DEFENCE

Let the prosecutor work for your money ;)

On November 21, 2014, I received a letter from the prosecutor stating that they are in receipt of the disclosure request but they cannot send it by mail. :facepalm: Okay so analysis here is that why the hell did you mail me a letter just to stay that versus mailing the disclosure already? LOL. Anyways, they pressed for either pick up, fax or email. Don't get intimidated folks.

On the same day, I send a second request stating the same things except added the reasons why disclosure by registered mail is a must.

Reasons:

- I live a considerable distance from the place of the court where the trial is held (100+ km one way)
- I do not have a fax at home to receive the fax. (In order for me to send a fax, I went to the nearest Canada Post Office in which I had to pay every time. Oh well. At least this gives you a nice papertrail to prove that you sent it. You get a fax confirmation sheet)
- Because of email security concerns and the disclosure contains confidential information. Email transmission is not the best choice. When I took a look at the Privacy Policy of the municipal government (Niagara Region) it said that

Emphasize this:

So far, no response was received.

I sent a third request on December 9, 2014 (4 weeks from trial date) requesting the same thing. No response was received.

On December 22, I filed my Notice of Application for Stay of Proceedings under Section 7 for non-disclosure. I didn't do the Full Monty on this one and I went with the Friendly Fax method as mentioned on the first page of this thread. I decided to take that risk. Also, do fill the affidavit and get it notarized!

At this time, nothing was heard from the prosecutor.

Part 2 - The Trial Date - January 7, 2015

Once you enter the court room ahead of schedule, you have the option to negotiate with the prosecutor for a lesser charge. I was surprised at how many people just went for the plea bargain. I was the only one who decided not to meet with the prosecutor and was ready to make some preliminary motions prior to entering a plea when I get call on the stand.

WORD OF ADVICE:

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF THE COURT OF JUSTICE ACT from the "Procedural Matters" section (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK146) and print just past section 109. You MUST include everything of section 109 because it's VERY important when you support your charter argument. I did receive flak for that part but luckily I stood ground.

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF REGULATION 200 AS WELL!!! (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/e ... 0200_e.htm) The first two pages is fine but just slightly past more than that. YOU MUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ALL OF SECTION 7 OF REGULATION 200!!!

Anyways, there were a few cases that went ahead of me and it's all of those who pleaded guilty and plea bargained with the prosecutor. After that there was a recess so that the prosecutor can meet with those who did not check in and so my name was called to see if I was there and I had to acknowledge my name. She let out an "Ai yai yai" sound and went through my file and just handed my disclosure right there :facepalm: and said that it's impossible to reach me. LOL. Right. You got my mailing address though... :facepalm:

So the court session resumed and she continued to clear those who plea bargained and it was time for those who wanted the trial. I was up first. At this time, most of the people are gone but there were a bunch of officers just watching including mine and another person who wanted a trial as well.

I take a stand and for the record of the court, they ask you what your name is and you have to respond. The JP then asked if I am familiar with the rules and how everything goes. I said "Somewhat, Your Worship." Always address the JP Your Worship. At times I ended up saying "Sir" in which he did not mind and he can tell I was actually quite nervous because it's really my first time doing something like it so the pressure was on. If I can go back in time, attend more than one court session just to get the feel of the environment. I only went one time prior to the trial date in my location just to see how things go.

He then explained the rules and procedures and asked what my plea is.

Now this was surprising....the prosecutor then jumped in to mention that I have a motion for the stay of proceedings. The real show begins here. ;)

As mentioned in the Ticket Combat website, I'll just quote from that website and it happened EXACTLY what it said.



So now the court was surprised that I pulled something sneaky like that. Obviously the first thing the JP said was that I did not file one with the court ahead of time. I told the JP that I was aware of that and I would to file one now in the spot. I then pulled Regulation 200 out of my binder and cited Section 7. I then cited subsection 7 of section 7 "an application may be heard without notice" subsection (7a) "on consent" and subsection (7b) "where, having regard to the subject-matter or the circumstances of the application or motion, it would not be unjust to hear the application or motion without notice."

Then the prosecutor chimed in to dare say that she "only" got 5 business days notice as well and that the holidays and weekends do not count. Oh yea? Watch this...

I then pulled out section 109 of the Court of Justice Act (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK148) and stated the subsection 2.2

Emphasize the words: AT LEAST

Next, I went back to Regulation 200 and quoted Section 4, subsection 4

Then I mentioned that it never specified that holidays and weekends are excluded. Therefore, those days are to be counted as well. Then I said that I faxed the forms to the prosecutor on December 21, 2014. That is the first day and it will not be counted. Today is January 7, 2015 and the last day isn't counted either. Therefore, from December 23, 2014 to January 6, 2015 are counted.

Let's do the math...

23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Holy crap tell me the total again? 15 days right? Well within the law.

Next, the JP still said that I was supposed to file with the court ahead of time but I repeated Section 7 Subsection 7 of Regulation 200. He didn't budge and didn't gave me a good reason why. Looking back I should've asked "For the record for the court, Your Worship, does that mean the court is unwilling to give consent to hear the motion without notice? If so, what is the court's justification to say that it is unjust to hear my motion without notice?" - take note of this folks!

He Then asked if I sent the notice to the Attorney General of Ontario and Canada correctly and I said, "Yes Your Worship, I have faxed the forms to the respective fax numbers, I have the confirmation receipt stating that it transmitted fine AND I got a lawyer to notarize the affidavits. Prior to notarizing the affidavits, the lawyer verified everything and said that I did everything correctly prior to signing the document."

The JP then asked me about the disclosure and how many times I requested and if I received anything. Then I said, I didn't receive anything until the recess to which when I checked in with the prosecutor, she just handed my disclosure. His eyes lit up.

The prosecutor confirmed that she gave the disclosure to me just now. She then argued about the fiasco how it was impossible to reach me other than the mailing address. She stated that I did not provide an email, phone number and fax number. She emphasized about the fax number saying how come I was able to fax but have no number to receive. The JP nodded to the prosecutor. I then told the JP that I would like to comment on what she said and he gave me permission. I then said that "I was able to fax because I went to the nearest Canada Post Office to fax from there and I have receipts to prove so. (Yes, Canada Post charges for fax. Much cheaper than registered mail though!) I had to go there because I do not own a fax at home. That's why I am unable to receive fax."

Next, she spoke about the email and not picking up in person. I then replied that email is not secure and also it even mentioned in their Privacy Policy that transmission of data electronically does not guarantee anonymity and confidentiality. Since the disclosure contains confidential information pertaining to a court case, it is not a viable method of transmission. Regarding pick up in person, I live a considerable mileage in which I have to take time off of work in which results to lost income such as today.

This is the reasons why I find that disclosure by registered mail is the best option for both.

For this part, apparently the prosecutor mailed a second letter on December 17 to reiterate the previous letter and added that the disclosure is ready to be picked up. I was shocked when I heard this in court because I never received the letter in the mail. The prosecutor then said "That is the reason why we don't mail out disclosure."

I responded "And there is a reason why Canada Post provides something called 'Registered Mail' and 'Xpresspost' to prevent this from happening. The mail is tracked and with Xpresspost, you get a delivery certificate certifying that the letter has been delivered. Also there is a tracking number included in which the mail can be traced. Did you mail the letter with the tracking number? How can you prove that you even sent it?" The prosecutor remained silent.

The JP then said, the best call here is to adjourn the matter as you have received the disclosure and you need the time to prepare your defence. I then agreed. At this time, the future dates has been selected. The prosecutor pushed for an early date stating that the officer did attend and the prosecutor is ready for trial. The initially gave me January 26 to which I disagreed because I mentioned my work situation in which they suggested the August date. I then asked if there are any available dates after January but earlier than August because I do not want to waive my 11B rights. Then the court said that it'll have to be January 26 then. I then said, I'll just take the August. Then the JP said to clear the line of communication between the prosecutor and I. He didn't explicitly say that I must do email, fax or in person though.... I am sure you know where this will go ;) ...I knew I did nothing wrong! :)

In the end, the matter has been adjourned to August 2015.

Side story...after I left the court room, the guy who went next won because his cop didn't show up. Lucky guy! He caught up to meet me, shook my hand and asked what my name was again. He then said that "That's how it should be done! Make them work for their money!"

LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED FROM MY EXPERIENCE

- You CAN fax the prosecutor and the Attorney Generals as long you give "at least 15 days notice". The first and last day doesn't count. Therefore, the minimum total calendar days is 17 days
- To receive less flak from the JP about filing the motion and make it easier during court, just serve the court in person TBH rather than without notice. I realized that the JPs aren't up to speed with the law and process...I spent a lot of time trying to educate them with no budge.
- So, fax the prosecutor and Attorney Generals. Fax the two Attorney Generals first, complete the affidavits and get it notarized, then fax the prosecutor the same thing but add the fax receipts and affidavits of both Attorney Generals to prove that you served them already

- Next, go to the court to serve them. Complete another affidavit and get it notarized to say that you served the prosecutor as well.
- Do all of this minimum 17 calendar days ahead of your trial date

More fun part

I got my disclosure but obviously didn't get everything I asked for. I only got the handwritten notes (In which I said three FREAKING times to type it in the first place...and the reason was to avoid the problems of reading chicken scratch. My cop's notes are hard to read...can't understand everything), driver's abstract, and manual on how to test the lidar device. I asked a whole other list to help me set my FULL DEFENCE in which I didn't get anything.

Time to turn the heat up.

Until next time!
What court house is this? Did you submit another disclosure request yet?

THanks
Newbie
Nov 14, 2010
6 posts
Toronto
So I got a ticket for turning left on yellow. It was a middle of the night, very wet and slick and I was in a hurry to get home (was feeling sick and this happened 2 minutes away from home). Coming up to the intersection, I tapped on the brakes when I saw the light switch to yellow, but when I realized there's no way I'd stop without slamming on brakes, so I proceeded through the yellow lights.
Cop pulls me over, telling me, asking if i was drinking. Starts lecturing me about how I am supposed to turn from left-most lane to left-most lane and how I almost didn't make it. Asks why I was in a hurry. I told him the reason. He again asked me if i was drinking. Went on for 5-10 min, then gave me a ticket.
Trial set for 14th jan. Requested disclosure on dec 1 or 2. got the voicemail to pick it up yesterday. picked it up today (jan 8). got everything, including dash cam video and typed notes.
I checked the HTA and it says that I should stop if safely possible, and if not, proceed.
In the notes, officer states that he started recording after I made the turn, so there's no way to show that I applied brakes before entering intersection. I will review the video later on, but I don't have high hopes since the officer himself stated that he started recording too late.
I am not sure if I can argue that I tried to safely stop since there's nothing to back my story except for my words. Also I did not mention that to the officer when he pulled me over.
Any recommendations how to tackle this? I _could_ say that I got the disclosure too late and need more time to prepare, but considering I didn't file the request till Dec 1, I am not sure this will fly either.
Thanks in advance
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14136 posts
4921 upvotes
Gatineau
Great job LJ_Gencoupe,

You came VERY prepared to respond to the nonesense from the Prosecutor. Its great to see the material posted in this thread being put to good use.

But unforunately, you were not successful in getting the Justice to agree to stop the trial due to the Prosecutor's mishandling of your case. Fair enough that you got the trial adjourned, but your efforts should have pushed the Justice into stopping it there.

Perhaps though, it is best that I provide some more info on building off of what you have done in order to get the Justice to agree to stop the trial as opposed to adjourning.

-----------------

My assumption in most cases is that the Prosecutors/Justices are well versed in the rules of the court. By your experience alone, this seems to not be the case. So my first suggestion for everyone going to court for the purpose of motioning to STAY is to print off 3 copies of the following documents (one for yourself, one for the Justice, and one for the prosecutor)..

1) Section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act
- The reason this document is important, as your Form 4F (Stay Application) is governed by this section
- It specifies the rules and procedures required in letting the court know about your expected motion to stop your trial.
- This document would be brought up if the Justice/Prosecutor question on whether you followed the proper steps in submittion your request to stop your trial prior to coming to court.

2) Section 7 (7) "Pronounced Section 7 Subsection 7" from Regulation 200 of the Courts of Justice Act
- If you didn't follow Section 109 above properly (didn't give enough notice), but still wish to complete a stay and the Justice/Prosecutor has issue with this, read off this section and hand copies to them that basically says that you are able to motion before the court WITHOUT NOTICE

I'm surprised that the Justice was adement in your case that you include the entire Section or Regulation. That seems unnecessary. You have quoted them where the Sections in question exist, the Court clerk can easily pull out their book and confirm it and read any other additional information if they require it. So I leave it up to you if you want to waste Ink/Paper in printing off more than what is required.

If the Justice still has issue with the way you are making this request to Stay, you must stay (lol) on that point (do not move away from it). Have an answer (by quoting any regulation/law) to show that what you have done is within the law. Maybe even end this stage with "Your Worship, do you have any further issue with how I am making this request or do you agree that I have done this correctly?".

The next issue to deal with is the Merits of your request. If this motion to stay is due to not receiving disclosure, you will want to provide similar responses as LJ_Gencoupe has mentioned below. Here are the typical responses that the Prosecutor will say as a reason why you did not receive disclosure.

1) We do not mail out disclosure
- Your objective here should be to get the Prosecutor to provide a reason why without asking exactly that. So you'll want to be creative. I usually respond with along the lines of "Communications with the court has been by mail (Notice of Trial/etc.). I fail to see a valid reason why the Prosecutor is unable to mail out disclosure OR at the very least, a mailing of a letter indicating that disclosure cannot be sent by mail"
- Prosecutor would need to respond with a good reason why they do not mail out. A likely response might be "Mailing out disclosure is not a secure method". So lets discuss that response

2) Mailing out disclosure is not a secure communication
- Your objective here should be to have the Prosecuter point out other methods they would accept for communication other than coming in person to pick it up.
- My response to this might be (directing my response to the Justice) "Your worship, should the prosecutor not offer other options for people like myself who (Insert applicable response from a) Live quite a distance away from the prosecutor's office b) Work during the normal office hours c) something better) as it seems quite unreasonable for the prosecutor to simply not respond to disclosure request along with having such a restrictive policy in only offering defendants to pick it up in person. You must have other acceptable methods of providing disclosure other than in person. Do you not?"

3) You did not provide a Phone Number
- You could say something along the lines of "I did not want to leave this as a line of communication since I had switched carriers/changed phone numbers since my original disclosure request. And again, since communication with the court has been done by mail, there is no reason why even a simple communication by mail containing disclosure availability could not have been provided."

Once you find that the Prosecutor cannot come up with any responses. Your objective should then be to argue why a delay in these proceedings is unreasonable. You will want to focus your arguments on the facts that show how the prosecutor is mishandling your case. Argue how unreasonable it is to just ignore a simple request. Show that by doing this, it has wasted the courts time. Show that adjourning these proceedings will likely waste time since the Prosecutor has shown lack of professionalism in the handling of my case thus far. You will want to end with something along the lines of "Your worship, the only reasonable action at this point would be to grant my request of a stay."

I'm not saying the above is full proof. You should prepare to build off of what I have written above. Like Big Brother..."expect the unexpected".

djino

LJ_Gencoupe wrote:
Jan 7th, 2015 6:19 pm
Hey folks,

Kudos to djino especially. So far, I want to say a BIG THANK YOU for the insights you give others to prepare for their trial. I just had my trial today and long story short it got ended up adjourned to August 2015. Yes that's right... 7 months from now...that's about 10 months from the alleged offence for speeding in October 2014.

On the legal side, here's what I experienced:

I received the notice of trial in the mail on November 13, 2014 stating that my trial date is January 7, 2014. On the same day, I requested the disclosure by fax. As advised by djino, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR EMAIL OR PHONE NUMBER. ONLY LEAVE YOUR MAILING ADDRESS.

DO NOT USE THE DISCLOSURE REQUEST FORMS FROM THE CITY

USE YOUR OWN CUSTOM FORM AS DJINO MENTIONED

ASK FOR SPECIFIC THINGS THAT YOU FIND RELEVANT TO YOUR CASE SO THAT YOU CAN PREPARE A FULL DEFENCE

Let the prosecutor work for your money ;)

On November 21, 2014, I received a letter from the prosecutor stating that they are in receipt of the disclosure request but they cannot send it by mail. :facepalm: Okay so analysis here is that why the hell did you mail me a letter just to stay that versus mailing the disclosure already? LOL. Anyways, they pressed for either pick up, fax or email. Don't get intimidated folks.

On the same day, I send a second request stating the same things except added the reasons why disclosure by registered mail is a must.

Reasons:

- I live a considerable distance from the place of the court where the trial is held (100+ km one way)
- I do not have a fax at home to receive the fax. (In order for me to send a fax, I went to the nearest Canada Post Office in which I had to pay every time. Oh well. At least this gives you a nice papertrail to prove that you sent it. You get a fax confirmation sheet)
- Because of email security concerns and the disclosure contains confidential information. Email transmission is not the best choice. When I took a look at the Privacy Policy of the municipal government (Niagara Region) it said that

Emphasize this:

So far, no response was received.

I sent a third request on December 9, 2014 (4 weeks from trial date) requesting the same thing. No response was received.

On December 22, I filed my Notice of Application for Stay of Proceedings under Section 7 for non-disclosure. I didn't do the Full Monty on this one and I went with the Friendly Fax method as mentioned on the first page of this thread. I decided to take that risk. Also, do fill the affidavit and get it notarized!

At this time, nothing was heard from the prosecutor.

Part 2 - The Trial Date - January 7, 2015

Once you enter the court room ahead of schedule, you have the option to negotiate with the prosecutor for a lesser charge. I was surprised at how many people just went for the plea bargain. I was the only one who decided not to meet with the prosecutor and was ready to make some preliminary motions prior to entering a plea when I get call on the stand.

WORD OF ADVICE:

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF THE COURT OF JUSTICE ACT from the "Procedural Matters" section (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK146) and print just past section 109. You MUST include everything of section 109 because it's VERY important when you support your charter argument. I did receive flak for that part but luckily I stood ground.

BRING THREE (3) COPIES OF REGULATION 200 AS WELL!!! (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/e ... 0200_e.htm) The first two pages is fine but just slightly past more than that. YOU MUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ALL OF SECTION 7 OF REGULATION 200!!!

Anyways, there were a few cases that went ahead of me and it's all of those who pleaded guilty and plea bargained with the prosecutor. After that there was a recess so that the prosecutor can meet with those who did not check in and so my name was called to see if I was there and I had to acknowledge my name. She let out an "Ai yai yai" sound and went through my file and just handed my disclosure right there :facepalm: and said that it's impossible to reach me. LOL. Right. You got my mailing address though... :facepalm:

So the court session resumed and she continued to clear those who plea bargained and it was time for those who wanted the trial. I was up first. At this time, most of the people are gone but there were a bunch of officers just watching including mine and another person who wanted a trial as well.

I take a stand and for the record of the court, they ask you what your name is and you have to respond. The JP then asked if I am familiar with the rules and how everything goes. I said "Somewhat, Your Worship." Always address the JP Your Worship. At times I ended up saying "Sir" in which he did not mind and he can tell I was actually quite nervous because it's really my first time doing something like it so the pressure was on. If I can go back in time, attend more than one court session just to get the feel of the environment. I only went one time prior to the trial date in my location just to see how things go.

He then explained the rules and procedures and asked what my plea is.

Now this was surprising....the prosecutor then jumped in to mention that I have a motion for the stay of proceedings. The real show begins here. ;)

As mentioned in the Ticket Combat website, I'll just quote from that website and it happened EXACTLY what it said.



So now the court was surprised that I pulled something sneaky like that. Obviously the first thing the JP said was that I did not file one with the court ahead of time. I told the JP that I was aware of that and I would to file one now in the spot. I then pulled Regulation 200 out of my binder and cited Section 7. I then cited subsection 7 of section 7 "an application may be heard without notice" subsection (7a) "on consent" and subsection (7b) "where, having regard to the subject-matter or the circumstances of the application or motion, it would not be unjust to hear the application or motion without notice."

Then the prosecutor chimed in to dare say that she "only" got 5 business days notice as well and that the holidays and weekends do not count. Oh yea? Watch this...

I then pulled out section 109 of the Court of Justice Act (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK148) and stated the subsection 2.2

Emphasize the words: AT LEAST

Next, I went back to Regulation 200 and quoted Section 4, subsection 4

Then I mentioned that it never specified that holidays and weekends are excluded. Therefore, those days are to be counted as well. Then I said that I faxed the forms to the prosecutor on December 21, 2014. That is the first day and it will not be counted. Today is January 7, 2015 and the last day isn't counted either. Therefore, from December 23, 2014 to January 6, 2015 are counted.

Let's do the math...

23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Holy crap tell me the total again? 15 days right? Well within the law.

Next, the JP still said that I was supposed to file with the court ahead of time but I repeated Section 7 Subsection 7 of Regulation 200. He didn't budge and didn't gave me a good reason why. Looking back I should've asked "For the record for the court, Your Worship, does that mean the court is unwilling to give consent to hear the motion without notice? If so, what is the court's justification to say that it is unjust to hear my motion without notice?" - take note of this folks!

He Then asked if I sent the notice to the Attorney General of Ontario and Canada correctly and I said, "Yes Your Worship, I have faxed the forms to the respective fax numbers, I have the confirmation receipt stating that it transmitted fine AND I got a lawyer to notarize the affidavits. Prior to notarizing the affidavits, the lawyer verified everything and said that I did everything correctly prior to signing the document."

The JP then asked me about the disclosure and how many times I requested and if I received anything. Then I said, I didn't receive anything until the recess to which when I checked in with the prosecutor, she just handed my disclosure. His eyes lit up.

The prosecutor confirmed that she gave the disclosure to me just now. She then argued about the fiasco how it was impossible to reach me other than the mailing address. She stated that I did not provide an email, phone number and fax number. She emphasized about the fax number saying how come I was able to fax but have no number to receive. The JP nodded to the prosecutor. I then told the JP that I would like to comment on what she said and he gave me permission. I then said that "I was able to fax because I went to the nearest Canada Post Office to fax from there and I have receipts to prove so. (Yes, Canada Post charges for fax. Much cheaper than registered mail though!) I had to go there because I do not own a fax at home. That's why I am unable to receive fax."

Next, she spoke about the email and not picking up in person. I then replied that email is not secure and also it even mentioned in their Privacy Policy that transmission of data electronically does not guarantee anonymity and confidentiality. Since the disclosure contains confidential information pertaining to a court case, it is not a viable method of transmission. Regarding pick up in person, I live a considerable mileage in which I have to take time off of work in which results to lost income such as today.

This is the reasons why I find that disclosure by registered mail is the best option for both.

For this part, apparently the prosecutor mailed a second letter on December 17 to reiterate the previous letter and added that the disclosure is ready to be picked up. I was shocked when I heard this in court because I never received the letter in the mail. The prosecutor then said "That is the reason why we don't mail out disclosure."

I responded "And there is a reason why Canada Post provides something called 'Registered Mail' and 'Xpresspost' to prevent this from happening. The mail is tracked and with Xpresspost, you get a delivery certificate certifying that the letter has been delivered. Also there is a tracking number included in which the mail can be traced. Did you mail the letter with the tracking number? How can you prove that you even sent it?" The prosecutor remained silent.

The JP then said, the best call here is to adjourn the matter as you have received the disclosure and you need the time to prepare your defence. I then agreed. At this time, the future dates has been selected. The prosecutor pushed for an early date stating that the officer did attend and the prosecutor is ready for trial. The initially gave me January 26 to which I disagreed because I mentioned my work situation in which they suggested the August date. I then asked if there are any available dates after January but earlier than August because I do not want to waive my 11B rights. Then the court said that it'll have to be January 26 then. I then said, I'll just take the August. Then the JP said to clear the line of communication between the prosecutor and I. He didn't explicitly say that I must do email, fax or in person though.... I am sure you know where this will go ;) ...I knew I did nothing wrong! :)

In the end, the matter has been adjourned to August 2015.

Side story...after I left the court room, the guy who went next won because his cop didn't show up. Lucky guy! He caught up to meet me, shook my hand and asked what my name was again. He then said that "That's how it should be done! Make them work for their money!"

LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED FROM MY EXPERIENCE

- You CAN fax the prosecutor and the Attorney Generals as long you give "at least 15 days notice". The first and last day doesn't count. Therefore, the minimum total calendar days is 17 days
- To receive less flak from the JP about filing the motion and make it easier during court, just serve the court in person TBH rather than without notice. I realized that the JPs aren't up to speed with the law and process...I spent a lot of time trying to educate them with no budge.
- So, fax the prosecutor and Attorney Generals. Fax the two Attorney Generals first, complete the affidavits and get it notarized, then fax the prosecutor the same thing but add the fax receipts and affidavits of both Attorney Generals to prove that you served them already

- Next, go to the court to serve them. Complete another affidavit and get it notarized to say that you served the prosecutor as well.
- Do all of this minimum 17 calendar days ahead of your trial date

More fun part

I got my disclosure but obviously didn't get everything I asked for. I only got the handwritten notes (In which I said three FREAKING times to type it in the first place...and the reason was to avoid the problems of reading chicken scratch. My cop's notes are hard to read...can't understand everything), driver's abstract, and manual on how to test the lidar device. I asked a whole other list to help me set my FULL DEFENCE in which I didn't get anything.

Time to turn the heat up.

Until next time!
Deal Guru
Aug 26, 2002
11097 posts
3449 upvotes
Toronto, ON
voidrunner wrote:
Jan 8th, 2015 10:53 am
So I got a ticket for turning left on yellow. It was a middle of the night, very wet and slick and I was in a hurry to get home (was feeling sick and this happened 2 minutes away from home). Coming up to the intersection, I tapped on the brakes when I saw the light switch to yellow, but when I realized there's no way I'd stop without slamming on brakes, so I proceeded through the yellow lights.
Cop pulls me over, telling me, asking if i was drinking. Starts lecturing me about how I am supposed to turn from left-most lane to left-most lane and how I almost didn't make it. Asks why I was in a hurry. I told him the reason. He again asked me if i was drinking. Went on for 5-10 min, then gave me a ticket.
Trial set for 14th jan. Requested disclosure on dec 1 or 2. got the voicemail to pick it up yesterday. picked it up today (jan 8). got everything, including dash cam video and typed notes.
I checked the HTA and it says that I should stop if safely possible, and if not, proceed.
In the notes, officer states that he started recording after I made the turn, so there's no way to show that I applied brakes before entering intersection. I will review the video later on, but I don't have high hopes since the officer himself stated that he started recording too late.
I am not sure if I can argue that I tried to safely stop since there's nothing to back my story except for my words. Also I did not mention that to the officer when he pulled me over.
Any recommendations how to tackle this? I _could_ say that I got the disclosure too late and need more time to prepare, but considering I didn't file the request till Dec 1, I am not sure this will fly either.
Thanks in advance
One way you can challenge this charge, which I assume is "amber light – fail to stop” under section 144(15) of the HTA, and that is to prove that the weather and driving condition at the time of the offence made it unsafe to come to a complete stop on the amber light. You can provide the weather report of that night to the courts as evidence. You can question the officer on the stand and try to get him to describe the road conditions. If you can get him to say that the roads were "very wet and slick", as you describe it, then it can support your defense.
Newbie
Nov 14, 2010
6 posts
Toronto
rvs007 wrote:
Jan 8th, 2015 11:38 am
One way you can challenge this charge, which I assume is "amber light – fail to stop” under section 144(15) of the HTA, and that is to prove that the weather and driving condition at the time of the offence made it unsafe to come to a complete stop on the amber light. You can provide the weather report of that night to the courts as evidence. You can question the officer on the stand and try to get him to describe the road conditions. If you can get him to say that the roads were "very wet and slick", as you describe it, then it can support your defense.
That was my plan. I already printed off weather reports and in officer's own notes he states that it was very wet. It is also why he kept lecturing me how I almost didn't make the turn ( I took a wide turning angle). He said that it was not safe, to which i responded (unfortunately) "there was no one around" (this took place around 2:30am)
Only later I realized that i should have said that it was unsafe to stop and point out that i applied brakes to gauge my chances of stopping safely (which i actually did). Unfortunately I am not a lawyer, so my mind was occupied with other things...
Newbie
Nov 14, 2010
6 posts
Toronto
rvs007 wrote:
Jan 8th, 2015 11:38 am
One way you can challenge this charge, which I assume is "amber light – fail to stop” under section 144(15) of the HTA, and that is to prove that the weather and driving condition at the time of the offence made it unsafe to come to a complete stop on the amber light. You can provide the weather report of that night to the courts as evidence. You can question the officer on the stand and try to get him to describe the road conditions. If you can get him to say that the roads were "very wet and slick", as you describe it, then it can support your defense.
Also, while I have looked at the TicketCombat site, I am not 100% sure of when I should say what. Do I say it in the opening statement that I am not guilty cause I've done all I could or do I do it when it comes my turn to testify?
Member
Mar 3, 2009
444 posts
25 upvotes
Does anyone know if either the pre-trial prosecutor or the court is setup to view videos as evidence?

I imagine they must be able to view them, so what kind of media do you bring - flash drive or DVD?

Do you just bring it in with you when you go in to talk to the prosecutor?

Thanks in advance.
Newbie
Jan 7, 2015
5 posts
North York, ON
Hi, there,
I got a speeding ticket at Sep 14th, 2014 (76 KM/H in a 50KM/H zone) and another one (fail to have insurance card). Actually I did carried an old card and tried to find the updated one in my car and the office did not let me to have more time to search. He just asked: did you have it? I said I have it but I need time to look for it and he said showed to the court and they will dropped it.

Then I went to the court 17th to request a trial. At the same time, I change the address on my dirver’s licence, my home address, to my working address for future corresponding.

So until now, Jan 8th, 2015, I have not got anything from the mail, no trial date, no anything, and neither at my working address or my home address.

What shall I do? Do I need to write a letter to them to check, which kind of remind them? Or do I call them? What if the letter lost in the mailing process, will that be my fault?
Deal Fanatic
May 1, 2012
7366 posts
3824 upvotes
Markham
fred999 wrote:
Jan 8th, 2015 2:09 pm
Does anyone know if either the pre-trial prosecutor or the court is setup to view videos as evidence?

I imagine they must be able to view them, so what kind of media do you bring - flash drive or DVD?

Do you just bring it in with you when you go in to talk to the prosecutor?

Thanks in advance.
There is equipment to watch video footage. I suggest you go to the Court Clerk and ask how to present video. I am sure they have a specific way to do so.
Newbie
Jan 7, 2015
1 posts
Etobicoke, ON
Question:

My wife got a traffic ticket in late August - early September. We went to the ministry of transportation, filed an appeal/court date so that we could fight it. Hadn't heard anything back from them since (and our fault for not pursuing it). Today she got a letter in the mail saying her license has been suspended. Called the ministry court, she said she has two options...

1) Pay the ticket $135. Four days from then, pay the suspension fee $150.
or
2) Have a meeting with the prosecutor, see if they will waive the fee... Of course, she has to apply for a meeting. Meaning, even then it is not a for sure thing.

Wife needs her license for work. Are these the only options? Seems unfair hoops to jump through given the error was on their end.


(first time posting on a forum, forgive me if I am doing it wrong)

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