Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2007
503 posts
98 upvotes
Port Colborne
LJ_Gencoupe wrote:
Jan 7th, 2015 6:19 pm
Hey folks,
As soon as I read "cannot send by mail", I knew it was Niagara. My first disclosure request, they indeed did mail it to me via standard post. The second trial I had, they refused to mail it to me and pulled that *****. Did you have your trial in Welland, St. Catharines or Niagara Falls?

I'm writing a request for disclosure for another PON as we speak.
Jr. Member
Mar 1, 2011
195 posts
58 upvotes
Mississauga
Millstone wrote:
Jan 10th, 2015 2:05 pm
As soon as I read "cannot send by mail", I knew it was Niagara. My first disclosure request, they indeed did mail it to me via standard post. The second trial I had, they refused to mail it to me and pulled that *****. Did you have your trial in Welland, St. Catharines or Niagara Falls?

I'm writing a request for disclosure for another PON as we speak.
Had it in Niagara Falls.
Jr. Member
Jan 12, 2008
101 posts
20 upvotes
What's the waiting list like these days? Any chance of an 11b in Toronto (Markham Rd)?
Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2007
503 posts
98 upvotes
Port Colborne
cantrips wrote:
Jan 10th, 2015 4:45 pm
What's the waiting list like these days? Any chance of an 11b in Toronto (Markham Rd)?
my trials have been 3 months out
Jr. Member
Jan 12, 2008
101 posts
20 upvotes
That sucks. Guess I will go to trial anyway, might as well. I'm assuming cops these days always show up to the courtroom?
Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2007
503 posts
98 upvotes
Port Colborne
cantrips wrote:
Jan 10th, 2015 5:52 pm
That sucks. Guess I will go to trial anyway, might as well. I'm assuming cops these days always show up to the courtroom?
Most are not so lucky. My next trial, literally that is my only angle. If they show up I have no other standing and have to plead guilty to the original reduced fine.

HOWEVER -- my last trial, he was there but talked to the prosecutor and appeared to say he had to go and couldn't stay through a trial. He remained seated in the gallery, me ready to do battle, but the prosecutor then withdrew the charge -- "no evidence".
Jr. Member
Mar 1, 2011
195 posts
58 upvotes
Mississauga
Hey djino,

I just realized that Section 16 of Regulation 200 states that
A justice shall not quash a proceeding or amend a certificate of offence in respect of a defendant who is appearing before the justice for the purposes of section 7 of the Act. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 200, r.16.
This might be helpful when a justice will try to deny the Section 7 for those who try to apply without notice like me.

I think a good strategy here, ask the justice "Your worship, are you thereby quashing the proceeding?"

Then if the justice says "Yes",

Fire back saying "Your worship, Section 16 of Regulation 200 states that ...... "
djino wrote:
Jan 8th, 2015 11:38 am
Great job LJ_Gencoupe,

You came VERY prepared to respond to the nonesense from the Prosecutor. Its great to see the material posted in this thread being put to good use.

But unforunately, you were not successful in getting the Justice to agree to stop the trial due to the Prosecutor's mishandling of your case. Fair enough that you got the trial adjourned, but your efforts should have pushed the Justice into stopping it there.

Perhaps though, it is best that I provide some more info on building off of what you have done in order to get the Justice to agree to stop the trial as opposed to adjourning.

-----------------

My assumption in most cases is that the Prosecutors/Justices are well versed in the rules of the court. By your experience alone, this seems to not be the case. So my first suggestion for everyone going to court for the purpose of motioning to STAY is to print off 3 copies of the following documents (one for yourself, one for the Justice, and one for the prosecutor)..

1) Section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act
- The reason this document is important, as your Form 4F (Stay Application) is governed by this section
- It specifies the rules and procedures required in letting the court know about your expected motion to stop your trial.
- This document would be brought up if the Justice/Prosecutor question on whether you followed the proper steps in submittion your request to stop your trial prior to coming to court.

2) Section 7 (7) "Pronounced Section 7 Subsection 7" from Regulation 200 of the Courts of Justice Act
- If you didn't follow Section 109 above properly (didn't give enough notice), but still wish to complete a stay and the Justice/Prosecutor has issue with this, read off this section and hand copies to them that basically says that you are able to motion before the court WITHOUT NOTICE

I'm surprised that the Justice was adement in your case that you include the entire Section or Regulation. That seems unnecessary. You have quoted them where the Sections in question exist, the Court clerk can easily pull out their book and confirm it and read any other additional information if they require it. So I leave it up to you if you want to waste Ink/Paper in printing off more than what is required.

If the Justice still has issue with the way you are making this request to Stay, you must stay (lol) on that point (do not move away from it). Have an answer (by quoting any regulation/law) to show that what you have done is within the law. Maybe even end this stage with "Your Worship, do you have any further issue with how I am making this request or do you agree that I have done this correctly?".

The next issue to deal with is the Merits of your request. If this motion to stay is due to not receiving disclosure, you will want to provide similar responses as LJ_Gencoupe has mentioned below. Here are the typical responses that the Prosecutor will say as a reason why you did not receive disclosure.

1) We do not mail out disclosure
- Your objective here should be to get the Prosecutor to provide a reason why without asking exactly that. So you'll want to be creative. I usually respond with along the lines of "Communications with the court has been by mail (Notice of Trial/etc.). I fail to see a valid reason why the Prosecutor is unable to mail out disclosure OR at the very least, a mailing of a letter indicating that disclosure cannot be sent by mail"
- Prosecutor would need to respond with a good reason why they do not mail out. A likely response might be "Mailing out disclosure is not a secure method". So lets discuss that response

2) Mailing out disclosure is not a secure communication
- Your objective here should be to have the Prosecuter point out other methods they would accept for communication other than coming in person to pick it up.
- My response to this might be (directing my response to the Justice) "Your worship, should the prosecutor not offer other options for people like myself who (Insert applicable response from a) Live quite a distance away from the prosecutor's office b) Work during the normal office hours c) something better) as it seems quite unreasonable for the prosecutor to simply not respond to disclosure request along with having such a restrictive policy in only offering defendants to pick it up in person. You must have other acceptable methods of providing disclosure other than in person. Do you not?"

3) You did not provide a Phone Number
- You could say something along the lines of "I did not want to leave this as a line of communication since I had switched carriers/changed phone numbers since my original disclosure request. And again, since communication with the court has been done by mail, there is no reason why even a simple communication by mail containing disclosure availability could not have been provided."

Once you find that the Prosecutor cannot come up with any responses. Your objective should then be to argue why a delay in these proceedings is unreasonable. You will want to focus your arguments on the facts that show how the prosecutor is mishandling your case. Argue how unreasonable it is to just ignore a simple request. Show that by doing this, it has wasted the courts time. Show that adjourning these proceedings will likely waste time since the Prosecutor has shown lack of professionalism in the handling of my case thus far. You will want to end with something along the lines of "Your worship, the only reasonable action at this point would be to grant my request of a stay."

I'm not saying the above is full proof. You should prepare to build off of what I have written above. Like Big Brother..."expect the unexpected".

djino
Deal Addict
User avatar
May 8, 2002
3945 posts
340 upvotes
jhardydj wrote:
Jan 9th, 2015 2:59 pm
In any case, what ever route you decide to take, make sure your wife does NOT drive while under suspension - this is very hard to fight and a conviction is a criminal charge.

Hope that helps.
Doesn't help by spreading false info. Drive under susp is NOT a criminal charges, however it is serious

HTA s53(1). If you are mistakenly referring to drive disqualified, which is a criminal charge, that does not apply in this Scenario.

In general, folks reading this thread please take caution in that none of this advice is provided by experts and may result in different outcomes due to different jurisdictions etc
Newbie
Sep 7, 2009
22 posts
Ontario
I need help here. I have a court date tomorrow and I'm planning to ask to "quash" the ticket due to Fatal Flaw (no date on the ticket).
I can also ask for "stay" of the proceedings due to "not receiving" the disclosure statement (requested 8 weeks ago).
Which one is better and what do to first, and what do I tell the prosecutor before the trial (when they still offer lesser charge)?
What if the officer does not show up? Do I do, say nothing?
I got stopped for "using handheld device", but I was only moving my gps from higher to lower position and explained that to the officer.
ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks.
Deal Addict
Aug 27, 2011
3047 posts
336 upvotes
Toronto
damamaj wrote:
Jan 11th, 2015 6:01 pm
I need help here. I have a court date tomorrow and I'm planning to ask to "quash" the ticket due to Fatal Flaw (no date on the ticket).
I can also ask for "stay" of the proceedings due to "not receiving" the disclosure statement (requested 8 weeks ago).
Which one is better and what do to first, and what do I tell the prosecutor before the trial (when they still offer lesser charge)?
What if the officer does not show up? Do I do, say nothing?
I got stopped for "using handheld device", but I was only moving my gps from higher to lower position and explained that to the officer.
ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks.
I wouldn't use the fatal flaw route if you plan on going to court, as it requires you not to show up to court and to let the judge notice the error and quash the ticket without your involvement. I believe if you point it out to the Judge they can amend the ticket.
Deal Guru
Aug 26, 2002
11662 posts
3736 upvotes
Toronto, ON
damamaj wrote:
Jan 11th, 2015 6:01 pm
I need help here. I have a court date tomorrow and I'm planning to ask to "quash" the ticket due to Fatal Flaw (no date on the ticket).
I can also ask for "stay" of the proceedings due to "not receiving" the disclosure statement (requested 8 weeks ago).
Which one is better and what do to first, and what do I tell the prosecutor before the trial (when they still offer lesser charge)?
What if the officer does not show up? Do I do, say nothing?
I got stopped for "using handheld device", but I was only moving my gps from higher to lower position and explained that to the officer.
ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks.
Moving/touching your GPS while driving is still distracted driving so if you explained this to the officer, you've already admitted to the offense.
Newbie
Sep 7, 2009
22 posts
Ontario
rvs007 wrote:
Jan 11th, 2015 11:08 pm
Moving/touching your GPS while driving is still distracted driving so if you explained this to the officer, you've already admitted to the offense.
Thank you for your input, but this was not my question. ;)
Deal Addict
User avatar
May 8, 2002
3945 posts
340 upvotes
Apparently not ^
damamaj wrote:
Jan 11th, 2015 6:01 pm
ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks.
This will be a hard one to beat, I think best outcome would be asking for adjournment due to not receiving disclosure, or cross fingers that officer won't show...
Newbie
Nov 26, 2006
54 posts
7 upvotes
Burlington
Hi djino,
Thank you so much for the great advice. I'm sure that your getting a bit tired of answering the same questions over and over.
got an improper stop on a red light while taking a right turn.
Although the officer did not say, I assume that this is points? The amount was around $325.
The officer really encouraged me to plead early and the fine and points could be reduced depending on the mood of the JP or crown.
Do you have any thoughts on the best approach. Really want to avoid the points if I can.
Deal Addict
Jan 13, 2007
4831 posts
356 upvotes
rvs007 wrote:
Jan 11th, 2015 11:08 pm
Moving/touching your GPS while driving is still distracted driving so if you explained this to the officer, you've already admitted to the offense.
Actually not. A recent court decision stated that merely touching/moving the device is not considered distracted driving. I don't remember where I've seen it first time, probably here on RFD

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