Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
21 posts
Toronto
That's okay Djino.
You're a popular person here...LOL!
I actually never even knew I could ask for a disclosure until last Thursday when I viewed this forum.
With just 3 business days until my court date (Aug 9 at 3pm at York CC), I doubt that is possible now.
I talked to a friends husband who is a Peel cop and he thinks I'm screwed.
The only chance that I have is that the officer does not show up, or that I can prove that the 8:50pm time is incorrect, which it maybe be because I thought it was after 10pm.
I told his I was surprised that there was a restriction for rights on a light, largely because I didn't see it...or expect it.
the only thing I can think of is going back there tonight (when it's dark) and see how visible the sign is.
Outside of that...be prepared to be convicted and have insurance rates increase in Sept.
Any further thoughts on this?
Appreciate your efforts.
MB

PREVIOUS POSTS
Crap.. Sorry, I completely missed your post. Not sure how, but let me see what advice I can give.


Originally Posted by mishabear

Hi djino,
I sent a thread to the general forum as well but thought I would ask you specifically.
Time is also running out.

I'm trying to find out if I have a chance to beat this ticket I received last November 2011.
I got pulled over for turning right going westbound on Bloor West onto Keele Street northbound on a red light at 10:pm.
I did stop but did not see the sign!!!
Go figure.
I've gone through it 1000s of times but did not ever see it.
You can turn right kiddy corner at that intersection, in fact, it has a right turning merging lane...with porkchop!
My court day is next week Aug 9th.

Months ago when I registered the date at York Civic Centre, an ex-copper passed me a business card, I told him my ticket problem, and he just said "you can beat that without me".
So I've been assuming it's easy.
Would you have any info to share that could help me?
I guess if I really do need an ex-copper (or equivalent) I could do it by tomorrow or Tuesday.

I'm concerned that my insurance company (CAA) will see the conviction even if the demerit points are only 2. I got a speeding conviction a year ago with no points but this second might do me in. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

Have you requested disclosure? If so, have you received it? If so, can you PM it to me.

djino
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mishabear wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 8:02 am
That's okay Djino.
You're a popular person here...LOL!
I actually never even knew I could ask for a disclosure until last Thursday when I viewed this forum.
With just 3 business days until my court date (Aug 9 at 3pm at York CC), I doubt that is possible now.
I talked to a friends husband who is a Peel cop and he thinks I'm screwed.
The only chance that I have is that the officer does not show up, or that I can prove that the 8:50pm time is incorrect, which it maybe be because I thought it was after 10pm.
I told his I was surprised that there was a restriction for rights on a light, largely because I didn't see it...or expect it.
the only thing I can think of is going back there tonight (when it's dark) and see how visible the sign is.
Outside of that...be prepared to be convicted and have insurance rates increase in Sept.
Any further thoughts on this?
Appreciate your efforts.
MB
DO THIS!

Since today is a holiday, tomorrow morning contact the court and ask for the prosecutor's contact information (including fax number). Once received, use the disclosure request document on the first post and fax it to the prosecutor ASAP. <-- Keep the fax receipt and bring it with you to court.

Yes, you obviously will not receive disclosure before your trial, but the point is to have put out the request to make the following arguments at trial.

On the day of trial, each of you will have an opportunity to discuss your case with the prosecutor just prior to trial starting. You would tell the prosecutor that you will be requesting to stay your trial since you have not received disclosure (do not discuss when you sent in your request). The prosecutor will offer you a reduced fine if you plead guilty (do not accept). There is also a likely chance that the prosecutor will drop your charges as he/she will not have a good reason for not sending you disclosure.

If in the chance that the prosecutor does not drop charges when your trial begins, the Justice will ask you how you wish to plead. You say "Before entering a plea your worship, I would like to motion to stay these proceedings as my rights to disclosure have been violated."

1) Expect the Justice to question the prosecutor on why he/she never sent you disclosure. The prosecutor will most likely say that no disclosure request was received. The Justice will ask you if you have proof of your request. You show your transmission receipt (yes, this will only show that you only submitted it on Tuesday morning). The Prosecutor will argue that this is an unreasonable amount of time to fulfill a disclosure request. The Justice will agree, but will grant an Adjournment (postpone trial) so that you can receive disclosure....OR

2) The Prosecutor will request a 5 minute recess while you and the police officer go outside the court room so that he can show you his notes so that you can continue trial after reviewing his notes. Go ahead outside and review it with him. When you return, tell the Justice that you requested much more evidence than just the officer's notes and that it is also UNREASONABLE for to prepare an answer to your charge only moments after reviewing disclosure. The Justice will agree with you, but will grant an adjournment so that you can later receive disclosure and prepare a defense.

So in either 1 or 2 above, the likely result is an Adjournment, which means the cop needs to return (which may not happen) and it also means you will receive disclosure. Once you do receive disclosure, return to this thread, and we can prepare a defense to your charge.

djino
"Goodluck! Let me know what happens!"
Newbie
Mar 14, 2011
2 posts
HAMILTON
If you have a no insurance card or improper or expired sticker or you didn't sign your ownership in ink, etc. these are convictions on your record. Not all insurance companies count 'em, some do. Let's see, if you have more convictions, they can charge more money.......you do the math.

Course I am one of those ticket professionals, so I wouldn't be a good source of info. I only do this stuff for a living!! LOL

djino wrote:
May 18th, 2012 6:45 pm
No. That type of conviction will not affect your insurance.

Though you could have got that ticket dropped if you would have showed up with it later with in a certain time after receiving the ticket. The police officer usually mentions this too.

Djino
Newbie
Mar 14, 2011
2 posts
HAMILTON
sigh - Some HTA charges are strict liability offences, some are Absolute liability!! YOU MUST KNOW WHICH YOUR CHARGE IS TO MOUNT A CREDIBLE DEFENCE!! Speeding, stop signs, Red lights, fail to have any of your paperwork or your license, etc. are all ABSOLUTE LIABILITY OFFENCES, don't bother explaining unless it was literally life and death with no other available options. The defences to these charges are limited and quite different from being a reasonable and prudent person. There may have been no other traffic at that intersection, you may have seen no moving vehicles or pedestrians but unless your wheels came to a complete stop in the right place, even if moving forward to see, you are guilty of a stop sign offence.

djino wrote:
May 19th, 2012 8:14 am
WHAT TO ARGUE IN COURT? - You should keep in mind STRICT LIABILITY

What happens if you actually have to proceed to trial and fight for a not-guilty verdict? How does one prepare to battle it out in court when receiving a traffic ticket?

You will have months and months and months to prepare a defense, And as I've already mentioned many many times already, the first thing you should do as soon as you receive notice of trial is to request disclosure of the evidence against you. And if you happen to get sufficient disclosure, doesn't mean you should give up and accept a plea.

When you receive a traffic ticket, you should make notes to remind yourself of what happened that day. Before committing the illegal act, did you at least attempt to do something prior to being pulled over to avoid having the incident occur? If the answer is Yes, then it may not be as hard to prove your case as you may think.

Most traffic offences fall under a "STRICT LIABILITY" offence (like most provincial offences). With a strict liability offence, the Justice will hand you a NOT GUILTY verdict if you are successful in arguing due diligence. To argue due diligence, you must show that you took all reasonable care to avoid committing the offence.

http://ticketcombat.com/step5/strict.php



djino
"UPDATED OP"
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Bruce15 wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 3:19 pm
If you have a no insurance card or improper or expired sticker or you didn't sign your ownership in ink, etc. these are convictions on your record. Not all insurance companies count 'em, some do.
You are correct here on that. So Yes, I was previously incorrect on that when I stated that back in May. But since then, you will notice I corrected myself on that and have stated that this conviction can have an affect on ones insurance.
Bruce15 wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 3:27 pm
sigh - Some HTA charges are strict liability offences, some are Absolute liability!!
By default ALL offences are strict liability.
Bruce15 wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 3:27 pm
YOU MUST KNOW WHICH YOUR CHARGE IS TO MOUNT A CREDIBLE DEFENCE!!
Of Course.
Bruce15 wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 3:27 pm
Speeding, stop signs, Red lights, fail to have any of your paperwork or your license, etc. are all ABSOLUTE LIABILITY OFFENCES
Can you point me to some Provincial Act Document/Case Law that suggests ALL those offences are absolute liability offences?? - In R. v. Sault Ste. Marie, by default, the Supreme Court stated that all charges are to be considered strict liability offences. This means morally innocent people should not be convicted for an offence they did not intend to commit.

Nowhere under the Highway Traffic Act nor the Provincial Offences Act are there any wording excluding the possibility of a due diligence defense for the offences you mentioned.
Bruce15 wrote:
Aug 6th, 2012 3:27 pm
don't bother explaining unless it was literally life and death with no other available options.
absolute liability offences do allow for a defence of either of Involuntariness, causation, or necessity.

djino
Newbie
May 29, 2012
11 posts
OTTAWA
Hi Djino
Tomorrow is my court date for a parking ticket
I faxed in 2 requests for disclosure so far and did not receive any. So now the plan is go to an plead not guilty. If the agent is there then what do I say? That I have not received disclosure and should get an adjournment?
Im not sure the proper way to phrase it.. lol

In addition, I am currently out of town to see my parents. Is it possible to have my boyfriend to go court and represent me?

Thanks
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jemy1415 wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 7:25 am
Hi Djino
Tomorrow is my court date for a parking ticket
I faxed in 2 requests for disclosure so far and did not receive any.
When did you receive the parking ticket?

When did you send in your 2 disclosure requests?
jemy1415 wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 7:25 am
So now the plan is go to an plead not guilty. If the agent is there then what do I say? That I have not received disclosure and should get an adjournment?
Im not sure the proper way to phrase it.. lol
By "Agent" do you mean Police Officer?

As mentioned on the OP, there is a formal process to request to have your trial stopped for not receiving disclosure, but it requires 15 days prior to your trial to send in the form. Having followed the process, you would not receive much difficulty in acceptance of your request.

BUT, you are still legally allowed to simply request to have your trial stopped (legal context is "STAY") at trial without submitting any form, but you will have much difficulty at trial explaining why you deserve this. Also, some Justices may not be experienced with the rules of the court and may expect that you follow the formal process (as I outline in Post #2).

At trial, the Justice will ask you how you wish to plea. You say "Before entering a plea your worship, I would like to motion to stay these proceedings as my rights to disclosure have been violated".

Expect the Justice to question the prosecutor on why he/she never sent you disclosure. They may say that they never received your request. You would then show proof of your 2 requests. The Justice may be inclined to grant an adjournment (postpone trial) so that you can have your disclosure request fulfilled. What you want to argue here is that an adjournment is also unreasonable since there is no clear reason why your disclosure request were ignored since you have sent multiple request. An adjournment would further delay these proceedings through no fault of your own (you may want to state that having to come back to court again would have an impact on your ability to make a living/etc). Just try to throw anything you have at the Justice so that he is more inclined to grant a stay.
jemy1415 wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 7:25 am
In addition, I am currently out of town to see my parents. Is it possible to have my boyfriend to go court and represent me?
Yes, you may have any family/friend/legal professional represent you. But you would want to be sure your boyfriend can present the arguments above in getting your ticket dropped. My advice is for you to attend court yourself.

djino
Newbie
Jul 26, 2012
15 posts
Toronto
djino wrote:
Jul 28th, 2012 12:29 pm
Ticket Fighters cannot guaranty that they can get your ticket dropped/receive a not guilty verdict. They usually only guaranty to get the fine reduced which can be done by anyone if they go see the prosecutor prior to their trial. djino
Can i go see the prosecutor before the trial now that I have requested a trial date? I am sure the first charge (unvalidated ownership) should be dropped because they charged me under wrong act and my ownership is valid, just doesn't have sticker in the back because validation tag number and expiry date already on ownership (was new ownership as I had changed addresses and they took my old ownership which had sticker and gave me one with validation and expiry on it already, the MTO said it is valid as I went and asked them after and told me to fight it). The second one (turning left) will they will drop to one with lower demerit points if I go and see prosecutor beforehand or better to wait till court and plead to the JP my situation.
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bluestar6000 wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 10:23 am
Can i go see the prosecutor before the trial now that I have requested a trial date?
You can either contact the court and request for the prosecutor's contact info (though it may not be able to provide this if you have not received a notice of trial yet) OR you can go to the court and ask the clerk there to setup a First attendance meeting.
jemy1415 wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 7:25 am
I am sure the first charge (unvalidated ownership) should be dropped because they charged me under wrong act and my ownership is valid, just doesn't have sticker in the back because validation tag number and expiry date already on ownership (was new ownership as I had changed addresses and they took my old ownership which had sticker and gave me one with validation and expiry on it already, the MTO said it is valid as I went and asked them after and told me to fight it). The second one (turning left) will they will drop to one with lower demerit points if I go and see prosecutor beforehand or better to wait till court and plead to the JP my situation.
Your best bet is to just follow the steps outlined on the first post. After requesting trial, wait for the notice of trial to arrive. Then request disclosure. Once you receive disclosure, come back to this thread and we can discuss options for your trial. If at that time you wish to plea to a lesser fine instead of proceeding to trial, you will still have that option.

djino
Newbie
Aug 6, 2012
3 posts
EDMONTON
First off Djino thank you for taking your time to help all of us out I know a lot of people arent saying it but it means a lot.

So I got a speeding ticket going down highway 2 for going 136 in a 110. He pulled me over and said he got me at 26 over at 304meters away. What I want to argue is that he had his car on uneven ground(on grassy area on the side of the highway), the gun may not be accurate since he used it from his cruiser through the window and tagged me against the sun(it was 6pm the sun was directly behind me so it probably played a role in the infrared signal), and the road was winding to the left I was in the left lane there was moderate traffic but he was on the right side of the road so he had to have gotten me through all cars on the right hand side of the road which may have interfered. As a summary he got the front of my car from 304 meters away with the sun glaring him through his window from uneven ground with traffic coming toward him. If asked if I was speeding I was planning on saying that I wasn't sure was traffic was frusturating and was focusing on the road. I was the last car of the bunch and the officer even told me at the scene he pulled me over cause I was the last car and he can't be expected to pull everyone over. Now I want to say that even if I may be speeding I highly doubt it was 26 over since the first car in my lane was a 2 trailer semi passing a Greyhound bus, and it would be really irresponsible for the officer to pull me over but not the semi which poses a much greater danger but I have the utmost confidence the reason he didn't pull him over was because he wasn't going that fast and since I was following the rest of the cars in my lane I shouldn't be either.

What are my chances with that? And also I have my regular licence so only 8 pts on it and I got 1 left so I'm doing this to get my pts back I was wondering how long the trial will take to set since I have 1 pt now and Ill be taking my advanced road test in like 3 months where it will reset my points to 15. Pretty much I want my points back so that if I get caught speeding again in the next 3 months I dont get my licence suspended.
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meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
First off Djino thank you for taking your time to help all of us out I know a lot of people arent saying it but it means a lot.
No problem, glad I can help.
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
So I got a speeding ticket going down highway 2 for going 136 in a 110. He pulled me over and said he got me at 26 over at 304meters away.
When did you receive the ticket? Where did you receive the ticket?
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
What I want to argue is that he had his car on uneven ground(on grassy area on the side of the highway), the gun may not be accurate since he used it from his cruiser through the window and tagged me against the sun(it was 6pm the sun was directly behind me so it probably played a role in the infrared signal), and the road was winding to the left I was in the left lane there was moderate traffic but he was on the right side of the road so he had to have gotten me through all cars on the right hand side of the road which may have interfered.
You can make these arguments at trial as you will also be able to ask the officer questions while he is on the witness stand, but you will also need to back up these arguments with facts from the radar's user manual. So after you have received disclosure, you may want to return to the prosecutor and ask to see the radar's manual first hand and ask that they make copies of pages relating to the above. Then you should prepare questions to ask the police officer so that he can admit to where he was positioned when clocking you.
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
As a summary he got the front of my car from 304 meters away with the sun glaring him through his window from uneven ground with traffic coming toward him. If asked if I was speeding I was planning on saying that I wasn't sure was traffic was frusturating and was focusing on the road.
You would not be asked any questions unless you agree to go on the stand to provide your version of the events which means you are then subject to cross examination by the prosecutor. So you don't have to take the witness stand if you don't want too, which means you do not have to answer questions from the prosecutor like "Were you speeding?".
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
I was the last car of the bunch and the officer even told me at the scene he pulled me over cause I was the last car and he can't be expected to pull everyone over. Now I want to say that even if I may be speeding I highly doubt it was 26 over since the first car in my lane was a 2 trailer semi passing a Greyhound bus, and it would be really irresponsible for the officer to pull me over but not the semi which poses a much greater danger but I have the utmost confidence the reason he didn't pull him over was because he wasn't going that fast and since I was following the rest of the cars in my lane I shouldn't be either.
This explanation is the reason why I caution when people take the witness stand. Giving a response as the above will get yourself convicted. The argument during trial is no longer about by how much you were speeding, but just the fact that you were speeding. So if you admit to speeding only 1 km over, you have just admitted guilt, and the Justice will find you guilty of the offence of speeding.
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
What are my chances with that?
Your arguments are fine, but you need proof via radar manual/police officer's testimony to back it up.

If you take the witness stand and provide the answer above, will be bad for you.

Right now, I assume you have yet to request trial. If so, it is too early to come up with a good defence to argue at trial. Just wait until you receive your notice of trial. Then request disclosure. Once you have received disclosure, you can come back and we can discuss what defence to mount at trial and how you should handle yourself if you decide to take the witness stand.
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
And also I have my regular licence so only 8 pts on it and I got 1 left so I'm doing this to get my pts back I was wondering how long the trial will take to set since I have 1 pt now and Ill be taking my advanced road test in like 3 months where it will reset my points to 15. Pretty much I want my points back so that if I get caught speeding again in the next 3 months I dont get my licence suspended.
Have you received other convictions within the past few years?

djino
Newbie
Aug 6, 2012
3 posts
EDMONTON
So the ticket was recieved in person on friday he pulled me over around the Ponoka area, which is roughly 200km away from Calgary where I will be taking it to court. How can I get the radar's make, model number, manual, testimony, etc... Forgive my ignorance but what is disclosure? I've gotten another speeding ticket on the highway before I was doing 145 but it was like 2am and no cars on the road and the officer lowered it to 130 on scene so I didn't fight it; this was 3 months ago. Like I said paying a small fine is ok with me as long as I can get the demertis removed asap so making a deal with the prosecutor would be good too. If you have some advice on what I should say that would be much appriciaited. Also if the cop doesn't show up, will it still go to trial or is it automatically thrown out? I read your first thread but was wondering if this is different in Alberta. Thanks again.
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meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 1:01 pm
So the ticket was recieved in person on friday he pulled me over around the Ponoka area, which is roughly 200km away from Calgary where I will be taking it to court. How can I get the radar's make, model number, manual, testimony, etc... Forgive my ignorance but what is disclosure?
You may want to have a read through the first post.

First Step to fighting a traffic ticket is to request a trial. Weeks/Months later, the court will mail you a notice of trial showing your trial date/time/location.

At the point you receive the notice of trial, you should send a letter/fax to the prosecutor requesting disclosure (See the disclosure Request Document on the first post).

Disclosure is evidence/material that will be presented at trial by the prosecutor to convict you. This can be the officer's notes he made at the time, statements made by you or other witnesses, equipment used (radar), etc. This evidence is vital to mounting a successful defence against your charge. It is everyone's legal right to obtain disclosure of the evidence against them to prepare an answer to ones charge. And if you don't receive it after requesting disclosure, is a valid reason to have your charges dropped.
meagainstyou wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 12:21 pm
I've gotten another speeding ticket on the highway before I was doing 145 but it was like 2am and no cars on the road and the officer lowered it to 130 on scene so I didn't fight it; this was 3 months ago. Like I said paying a small fine is ok with me as long as I can get the demertis removed asap so making a deal with the prosecutor would be good too. If you have some advice on what I should say that would be much appriciaited. Also if the cop doesn't show up, will it still go to trial or is it automatically thrown out? I read your first thread but was wondering if this is different in Alberta. Thanks again.
Why is demerit points your focus? You do release Insurance Companies do not see/care about demerit points. They care about convictions. receiving multiple convictions within a few years will affect your insurance rates significantly. So your objective should be to not be convicted. If you go see the prosecutor and they offer a reduced fine/demerit points for your guilty plea, this is still a conviction that will be treated the same (regardless of the fine/demerit points) by the insurance company.

The only time I would be concerned with demerit points is if you have accumulated enough that you would be facing your license being suspended if convicted on the current charge.

But if you do not care about all that and just want to have demerit points reduced/eliminated, then you can go to court and request a first attendance meeting with the prosecutor OR you can just wait until your trial date, and speak to the prosecutor just prior to your trial starting.

djino
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Aug 6, 2012
3 posts
EDMONTON
All right so I read your first post a little more thoroughly but still have a few more concerns:

1) I'm in Calgary for work right now but my term ends here in 4 months and I'll be moving to Edmonton (300kms away) so can I request a different court room after if the trial date is longer than 4 months so I don't have to drive 300kms to attend trial?

2) Can I request my trial date be set on a Saturday or a Holiday?

3) If I get assigned a court date and don't show up what happens?

4) If I get another ticket resulting in a licence suspension and I apply for trial am I allowed to drive during this time? The whole innocent untill proven guilty deal? Like do the demerits get taken off when you pay your ticket or when the officer gives you the ticket?

Thanks again for your time and support.

4)
Newbie
May 29, 2012
11 posts
OTTAWA
djino wrote:
Aug 7th, 2012 8:20 am
When did you receive the parking ticket?
I received the parking ticket on November 18th, 2011. I am not sure if you remember but I PM'ed you a copy of the infraction/notice of trial a while ago.
When did you send in your 2 disclosure requests?
I sent one by mail in June and I never got a response so I faxed another copy on July 7th as I would have proof that I requested disclosure that way.


By "Agent" do you mean Police Officer?
I meant the Bylaw officer
As mentioned on the OP, there is a formal process to request to have your trial stopped for not receiving disclosure, but it requires 15 days prior to your trial to send in the form. Having followed the process, you would not receive much difficulty in acceptance of your request.

BUT, you are still legally allowed to simply request to have your trial stopped (legal context is "STAY") at trial without submitting any form, but you will have much difficulty at trial explaining why you deserve this. Also, some Justices may not be experienced with the rules of the court and may expect that you follow the formal process (as I outline in Post #2).

At trial, the Justice will ask you how you wish to plea. You say "Before entering a plea your worship, I would like to motion to stay these proceedings as my rights to disclosure have been violated".

Expect the Justice to question the prosecutor on why he/she never sent you disclosure. They may say that they never received your request. You would then show proof of your 2 requests. The Justice may be inclined to grant an adjournment (postpone trial) so that you can have your disclosure request fulfilled. What you want to argue here is that an adjournment is also unreasonable since there is no clear reason why your disclosure request were ignored since you have sent multiple request. An adjournment would further delay these proceedings through no fault of your own (you may want to state that having to come back to court again would have an impact on your ability to make a living/etc). Just try to throw anything you have at the Justice so that he is more inclined to grant a stay.
What are the chances of getting it thrown out? if I get an adjournment, It will get me close to a one year mark since in infraction. I can get a STAY based on unreasonable delay right?

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