Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

[OP]
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Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
Djino,
- The accident was April 10. I requested a meeting with the persecutor.
- May 16 I e-mailed the filled "disclosure form" for York region. (I have the e-mail and a confirmation that they received the request)
- I did not hear back from them.
- Jun 7 I had my ERM and I rejected the offer the persecutor had. I complained I did not receive the disclosure. He said "I have it" and handed me the 1st package. It included the (ERM notice, the accident report, the notes of the officer that gave me the ticket). When I saw what was in the package I tried to submit another disclosure request immediately but they would not accept it. I was told at the window that I have to wait until I get the letter for the court date. She said that they are so behind on the requests that they will not get to it anyway.
I would keep note of this as this will assist with your stay argument over an adjournment.
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
- July 5 I sent the 2nd disclosure request as soon as I received my trial date. (I faxed and e-mailed a copy) I also sent e-mails requesting confirmation that they received it but they did not respond.
Another item that can assist as it shows the prosecutor's office not being very cooperative.
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
- Aug 27 at the end of the day I received a call from the persecutor office saying that they have some of the information I requested. I told her that I requested the notes of both officers and it be typed. She said they are not typed. She also said one of the officers the notes are clear but the other one the hand writing is not clear. I said I need it typed. She said they give what they have.
And of course make note of this. This being the most important part of your argument showing that they are not giving you legible material to be able to prepare a defence. And since this was their answer, a adjournment will not change this outcome.
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
- Aug 28 I went there and was given two packages. The first is another copy of the first disclosure and the other is the second disclosure. I said I wanted to check it because I was told it is not complete. She checked back with someone and she told me "this is what we have for you deal with it with the persecutor and the Justice on trial date" I said I intend to proceed with the motion for a stay. She said "deal with it with the persecutor on trial day". I heard the persecutor asking the clerk what was missing and she said "He wants us to type the notes and we have no time to do that. His trial is next week". I'm not sure why wouldn't they have time. How long does it take to type the notes???
Whether they have time to do something or not is not relevant. It is not your fault that the prosecutor is too busy to handle your case properly. They do have the option of dropping your charges if the work load they currently have is too much for them.
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
I have all the fax transmission receipts and the e-mails sent and received.
Great. Bring all of this with you on Wednesday.
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
I asked for the "witness will say statement" and this was not provided. Can they still use the witness? The notes from the officers did not quote anything from the witness other than how the accident happened. What could they possibly ask her? After the accident she was led by her husband to start complaining more and I heard her husband saying to the officers "I hope someone gets charged for this". I intend to try and make sure that her husband is not around when she gives witness.
If this witness is present at court, you will need to mention that you requested witness will say statements as part of your disclosure request which is another item you did not receive. If the witness is not there in court, then there is no need to mention this.

If you proceed to trial and during the officer's testimony, the officer quotes any statements made by the other driver(s) (statements that you did not receive through disclosure), you will need to object. Specifically say "objection, hearsay" or "what is the relevancy?". Whatever the prosecutor responds with, you will follow up with that you requested witness statements through disclosure which was not given. If the justice didn't agree with your stay motion, this objection will force his hand. You argued you didn't get disclosure and now the officer testifying to statements made by witnesses, statements which you requested through disclosure that you have never seen. How can you prepare a defence against something they won't show you?
Al400 wrote:
Aug 29th, 2012 10:26 pm
Another point, the officer is quoting me as saying I was 50 feet back. What I said was 50 meters (That's three times the distance).
There is nothing you can do about this for the moment unless you proceed to trial. You would have to provide testimony stating what you actually told the officer and then make the argument that the officer is unreliable having confused the two statements.

----------

AT TRIAL

Arrive at the court at least 30 minutes before your trial is to begin and just wait outside with everyone in your court session. Keep an eye out for the police officer and any the other driver. At some point the prosecutor will arrive and enter the court room in which everyone will be allowed to enter to discuss any plea deals/options with the prosecutor before the court session begins. Feel free to talk with the prosecutor. Tell him/her that you are still proceeding with your stay request due to improper disclosure. The prosecutor will either say that they will drop the charges or they will present a plea deal which you would reject. If no agreement is made, then they will ask you to sit down as he/she continues to speak with others before the court session begins.

When the Justice enters the court room, the court session has officially begun. When your name is called, the prosecutor will say that they are withdrawing the charges, or he/she will say nothing and the court clerk will ask you how you wish to plea.

You say..."Before entering a plea Your Worship, I would like to motion to stay my trial as my rights to disclosure under section 7 of the Charter have been violated". Expect the Justice to question the prosecutor on why you have not received disclosure. The Prosecutor will most likely say that they gave you disclosure. You will then need to present your request and state what is missing along with WHY it is important.

---

Homework
- Prepare notes for yourself that will contain the missing items you didn't receive
- Under each item, explain why this is important (I discuss them in my responses above). But feel free to ask me any questions about that if you need help there.

There is a good chance that after you have stated why you need the missing items that the Justice will be inclined to grant an adjournment. You will need to present reasons for why an Adjournment is unreasonable
- State your communications with the prosecutor's office since your first meeting with them
- Make clear arguments stating how he/she has mishandled your case and how postponing trial will not make things right.

---

If you need assistance with any of the above, reply. If at trial after going through all that and the Justice still insist that an Adjournment is the right decision. Make note of the Justice's explanation for this. It is important that any ruling made comes with a proper explanation as to why the ruling is made. And if an adjournment happens, let it be. We can then discuss options for what you should do at your next trial date.

djino
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Apr 23, 2006
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Djino,

I received a ticket for the offence of "Fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle; contrary to HTA". Section 159(1)(a). He wrote a fine of $85, but the correct set fine should be $400. Is this considered a fatal error?

Basically what happened was I made an improper left turn into a neighbourhood road (proceed contrary to sign at intersections), and after I made the turn he had his lights flashing on the opposite side of the road about 50m from the intersection. I didn't know he was after me so I just kept driving straight. He made a U-turn, caught up to me, and gave me two tickets.
[OP]
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ak-47 wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 10:26 am
Djino,

I received a ticket for the offence of "Fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle; contrary to HTA". Section 159(1)(a). He wrote a fine of $85, but the correct set fine should be $400. Is this considered a fatal error?

Basically what happened was I made an improper left turn into a neighbourhood road (proceed contrary to sign at intersections), and after I made the turn he had his lights flashing on the opposite side of the road about 50m from the intersection. I didn't know he was after me so I just kept driving straight. He made a U-turn, caught up to me, and gave me two tickets.
I am having some issue with this one. So far to me it does appear that the set fine should be $400, but I am trying to be 100% on that. Some offences do not have a set fine, but a range.

Example: Careless Driving..contrary to section 130 of the Highway Traffic Act states
Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $400 and not more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. 2009, c. 5, s. 41.
But if we look at the Ontario Courts of Justice site (probably where you got your info from), it shows Careless driving to have a set fine of $400. Actually none of the fines on this page show a range, but an actual fine amount.

---

Looking back at the Highway Traffict Act for your offence - section 159(1)(a), it does not state the fine in the definition like it does for Careless Driving.
159. (1) The driver of a vehicle, upon the approach of a police department vehicle with its bell or siren sounding or with its lamp producing intermittent flashes of red light or red and blue light, or upon the approach of an ambulance, fire department vehicle or public utility emergency vehicle with its bell or siren sounding or its lamp producing intermittent flashes of red light, shall immediately bring such vehicle to a standstill,
(a) as near as is practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway and parallel therewith and clear of any intersection;
But on the Ontario Courts of Justice site, it has the set fine of $400.

----------

For the moment, I am not 100% sure if your fine should have been $400, or if $400 is included in the range of fine. I will have to do further research on that and get back to you (or perhaps you could anonymously contact your court and ask them if there is a range in fine or a specific set fine for someone charged with the offence contrary to section 159(1)(a)).

djino
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Dec 30, 2005
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Djino,

I received a parking ticket over the weekend. Supposedly committed the parking infraction of (Code No.5) "Park Signed Highway during prohibited (Times/Days) and Time of infraction of 2039hrs. I remember clearly looking at the sign and it states that I am able to park on Saturday from 0800-2100 and purchased a ticket until 2100hrs, but still received a ticket. I went back to the area I where I supposedly committed the infraction and noted the officer wrote the closest location in which I thought was incorrect. This makes a difference because it's past the pole where parking is not permitted, but the ticket states I was parking during prohibited times as opposed to parking prohibited...so do I follow post #44 and do nothing or do I have a case to take it straight to trial. BTW, I took photos and have the ticket receipt from that day.
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yyz2hkg wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 11:58 am
Djino,

I received a parking ticket over the weekend. Supposedly committed the parking infraction of (Code No.5) "Park Signed Highway during prohibited (Times/Days) and Time of infraction of 2039hrs. I remember clearly looking at the sign and it states that I am able to park on Saturday from 0800-2100 and purchased a ticket until 2100hrs, but still received a ticket. I went back to the area I where I supposedly committed the infraction and noted the officer wrote the closest location in which I thought was incorrect. This makes a difference because it's past the pole where parking is not permitted, but the ticket states I was parking during prohibited times as opposed to parking prohibited...so do I follow post #44 and do nothing or do I have a case to take it straight to trial. BTW, I took photos and have the ticket receipt from that day.
What city did you receive this ticket? If in the Toronto, I would start by filing a parking ticket dispute as I list on the first post
2) Parking Tickets

- GTA: Consider filing a parking ticket dispute -> http://www.toronto.ca/pay-toronto-ticke ... cation.pdf
If not in Toronto, contact the city regarding the ticket and filing some sort of dispute.

djino
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Dec 9, 2009
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djino wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 9:18 am
I would keep note of this as this will assist with your stay argument over an adjournment.



Another item that can assist as it shows the prosecutor's office not being very cooperative.



And of course make note of this. This being the most important part of your argument showing that they are not giving you legible material to be able to prepare a defence. And since this was their answer, a adjournment will not change this outcome.



Whether they have time to do something or not is not relevant. It is not your fault that the prosecutor is too busy to handle your case properly. They do have the option of dropping your charges if the work load they currently have is too much for them.



Great. Bring all of this with you on Wednesday.



If this witness is present at court, you will need to mention that you requested witness will say statements as part of your disclosure request which is another item you did not receive. If the witness is not there in court, then there is no need to mention this.

If you proceed to trial and during the officer's testimony, the officer quotes any statements made by the other driver(s) (statements that you did not receive through disclosure), you will need to object. Specifically say "objection, hearsay" or "what is the relevancy?". Whatever the prosecutor responds with, you will follow up with that you requested witness statements through disclosure which was not given. If the justice didn't agree with your stay motion, this objection will force his hand. You argued you didn't get disclosure and now the officer testifying to statements made by witnesses, statements which you requested through disclosure that you have never seen. How can you prepare a defence against something they won't show you?



There is nothing you can do about this for the moment unless you proceed to trial. You would have to provide testimony stating what you actually told the officer and then make the argument that the officer is unreliable having confused the two statements.

----------

AT TRIAL

Arrive at the court at least 30 minutes before your trial is to begin and just wait outside with everyone in your court session. Keep an eye out for the police officer and any the other driver. At some point the prosecutor will arrive and enter the court room in which everyone will be allowed to enter to discuss any plea deals/options with the prosecutor before the court session begins. Feel free to talk with the prosecutor. Tell him/her that you are still proceeding with your stay request due to improper disclosure. The prosecutor will either say that they will drop the charges or they will present a plea deal which you would reject. If no agreement is made, then they will ask you to sit down as he/she continues to speak with others before the court session begins.

When the Justice enters the court room, the court session has officially begun. When your name is called, the prosecutor will say that they are withdrawing the charges, or he/she will say nothing and the court clerk will ask you how you wish to plea.

You say..."Before entering a plea Your Worship, I would like to motion to stay my trial as my rights to disclosure under section 7 of the Charter have been violated". Expect the Justice to question the prosecutor on why you have not received disclosure. The Prosecutor will most likely say that they gave you disclosure. You will then need to present your request and state what is missing along with WHY it is important.

---

Homework
- Prepare notes for yourself that will contain the missing items you didn't receive
- Under each item, explain why this is important (I discuss them in my responses above). But feel free to ask me any questions about that if you need help there.

There is a good chance that after you have stated why you need the missing items that the Justice will be inclined to grant an adjournment. You will need to present reasons for why an Adjournment is unreasonable
- State your communications with the prosecutor's office since your first meeting with them
- Make clear arguments stating how he/she has mishandled your case and how postponing trial will not make things right.

---

If you need assistance with any of the above, reply. If at trial after going through all that and the Justice still insist that an Adjournment is the right decision. Make note of the Justice's explanation for this. It is important that any ruling made comes with a proper explanation as to why the ruling is made. And if an adjournment happens, let it be. We can then discuss options for what you should do at your next trial date.

djino
djino,
Is the officer considered a witness? Shouldn't I get his "witness will say statement" too? How can I prepare for his statement if I do not have it?
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Al400 wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 2:42 pm
djino,
Is the officer considered a witness? Shouldn't I get his "witness will say statement" too? How can I prepare for his statement if I do not have it?
Yes the officer is considered a witness for the crown (prosecutor).

If the officer says he did/you did anything outside of what you received in disclosure, then yes you should object to it during the officer's testimony. But all of this is not really an issue until you actually proceed to trial. Your plan for Wednesday is to either have your charges STAYED (Stopped/dropped) or Postponed through an Adjournment.

If your trial is Adjourned, then we can later discuss/prepare you for what you should do at your next trial for when the prosecutor's witnesses are testifying, since its possible there will be many things to object too due to your lack of disclosure.

djino
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roadrunner17 wrote:
Jul 24th, 2012 2:45 pm
Hi djino

I was followed and stopped by cop while I was on phone(It was on speaker but of course I was holding the phone). But officer gave me break and reduced it to "failed to surrender insurance card" as I wasn't able to find it in my messy glove box.

Reason why he reduced it was because my wife was in hospital and in labor giving birth to our son.

I choose option for early resolution with prosecutor, showed him my pink slip which I ordered from my insurance company, letter which shows I was insured when I was stopped and also birth certificate that my wife was in labor therefore I was in rush and could not find the insurance slip.

Prosecutor said since officer already gave me a break he is not willing to drop the charge but offered me reduced fine. I declined and went for trial option.

My questions are :

1. If I found guilty of this charge will it effect my insurance rates?
2. Can prosecutor argue in court I was originally stopped for talking on phone?
3. If I tell JP on trial date, that insurance card was in the glove box but I wasn't able to find it because I was rushing as my wife was in labor. Will this be a good defense?
4. Any other way to approach this charge?

For now I am waiting for my trial date and I will ask for disclosures once I receive the trial date. Thanks

djino wrote:
Jul 24th, 2012 3:13 pm
Yes, you can expect your insurance to increase if convicted on this offence. See Failure To Produce Evidence Of Insurance here.



Yes, depends what is shown in disclosure. You should request disclosure ASAP using the document on the first post. This will provide all evidence of what will be shown/discussed in court.



When you provide a defence during trial, it should be a Reasonable Doubt defence OR a Due Diligence defence.

Reasonable Doubt Defence: The officer/evidence is unreliable. You are producing arguments to show the officer/evidence is flawed - you are creating reasonable doubt that you committed the offence.

Due Diligence Defence: Yes, you committed the offence, but you should not be convicted of it. You did not believe you were committing an offence as you took reasonable steps to avoid committing the offence - you are morally innocent.

Your arguments/defence should fit into one of those categories. If it cannot, then you will find it difficult to get a Justice to side with you.

EDIT: There is a possible Defence of Necessity you could provide though I'm not sure it will work on a failure to provide insurance offence. This.







This is the best way to go about it for now. Wait for disclosure, then you can come back and we can discuss options at trial.

djino
Hi djino

I got Trial date and disclosures too. Durham courthouse is fast. My Trial date is in mid November.
This is what I received in disclosures basically nothing. If you remember I was stopped for talking on cell phone but officer charged me for not able to surrender insurance card. In disclosures it's not mentioned anywhere so does that mean prosecutor cannot bring it up in the court?

What will be the best way to defend this charge?

Disclosure :
[IMG]http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9569/discloure.jpg[/IMG]


Thanks
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roadrunner17 wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 4:46 pm
Hi djino

I got Trial date and disclosures too. Durham courthouse is fast. My Trial date is in mid November.
This is what I received in disclosures basically nothing. If you remember I was stopped for talking on cell phone but officer charged me for not able to surrender insurance card. In disclosures it's not mentioned anywhere so does that mean prosecutor cannot bring it up in the court?

What will be the best way to defend this charge?

Disclosure :
[IMG]http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9569/discloure.jpg[/IMG]


Thanks
Hey roadrunner17,

How is the newest member to your family?

I would use the document on the first post and send another request for disclosure. If you fax it, keep the record of the fax transmission receipt. If you mail, keep tracking receipt.

If you do not receive anything in a month, I would send it one more disclosure request.

If you do not receive anything in about a month before your trial, then you should focus your efforts on completing a stay application due to no/improper disclosure (follow the instructions on post #2 of this thread).

djino
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hey djino , question my ticket says i was going s/b when i was going n/b would this considered a fatal flaw ?
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djino wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 5:13 pm
Hey roadrunner17,

How is the newest member to your family?

I would use the document on the first post and send another request for disclosure. If you fax it, keep the record of the fax transmission receipt. If you mail, keep tracking receipt.

If you do not receive anything in a month, I would send it one more disclosure request.

If you do not receive anything in about a month before your trial, then you should focus your efforts on completing a stay application due to no/improper disclosure (follow the instructions on post #2 of this thread).

djino
"Keep me updated!"
Hi Djino

Little one is doing great, thanks.

I did sent exact same disclosure request as on page 1 of this thread via email and they mailed it back to me.
What should I be asking this time around? Anything specific?

Thanks
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Aug 24, 2011
372 posts
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MISSISSAUGA
My ticket says "did commit the parking infraction of (Code No. 134): PARK IN PUBLIC PLACE", and "Contrary to (Bylaw or Code): Toronto", also Location of Infraction says "R/O 115 Bond St".

Here are my questions:
1. What is Code No. 134?
2. Can he put Toronto for the Bylaw or Code?
3. What does R/O mean (I'm guessing it stands for Rear Of, can someone confirm)?
4. I parked here: https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=43.657...t=h&gl=ca&z=20
But 115 Bond Street is the church beside it, does it still count? Btw, where I parked had a sign that says "No Parking in this lane" but it was on the left side while I parked on the right side.
5. If I wait til they send me a notice of impending conviction then apply to appear in court, hoping I don't hear from it, will I still be able to plead guilty in court? Will I have to pay court fees?
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4door wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 5:47 pm
hey djino , question my ticket says i was going s/b when i was going n/b would this considered a fatal flaw ?
by s/b and n/b I assume this means southbound and northbound?

If so, then no this is NOT A FATAL FLAW. But it can be used as part of your defence to show the cop is unreliable.

djino
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roadrunner17 wrote:
Aug 30th, 2012 7:14 pm
Hi Djino

Little one is doing great, thanks.

I did sent exact same disclosure request as on page 1 of this thread via email and they mailed it back to me.
What should I be asking this time around? Anything specific?

Thanks
Send it again, requesting that items YOU DID NOT receive, which by the looks of it, you didn't receive much at all.

If they ignore it again and/or only send you the same document...this will only work in your favour later. But its just best to be as proactive as you can so you leave no room for the Justice to grant anything less than a stay.

djino
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hollandmoon wrote:
Aug 31st, 2012 12:47 am
My ticket says "did commit the parking infraction of (Code No. 134): PARK IN PUBLIC PLACE", and "Contrary to (Bylaw or Code): Toronto", also Location of Infraction says "R/O 115 Bond St".

Here are my questions:
1. What is Code No. 134?
After performing a Google Search, I believe that is in reference to parking in a handicap space.
hollandmoon wrote:
Aug 31st, 2012 12:47 am
2. Can he put Toronto for the Bylaw or Code?
Do you mind PMing me your ticket before answering this one.
hollandmoon wrote:
Aug 31st, 2012 12:47 am
3. What does R/O mean (I'm guessing it stands for Rear Of, can someone confirm)?
Yes.
hollandmoon wrote:
Aug 31st, 2012 12:47 am
4. I parked here: https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=43.657...t=h&gl=ca&z=20
But 115 Bond Street is the church beside it, does it still count? Btw, where I parked had a sign that says "No Parking in this lane" but it was on the left side while I parked on the right side.
If you are asking if this ticket is still valid because of the discrepancy in location, the answer is Yes its still valid. But this can be used as part of your defence.
hollandmoon wrote:
Aug 31st, 2012 12:47 am
5. If I wait til they send me a notice of impending conviction then apply to appear in court, hoping I don't hear from it, will I still be able to plead guilty in court? Will I have to pay court fees?
You can pay the fine as indicated on the ticket anytime between receiving the ticket to the day of your trial. You might even get a plea deal from the prosecutor which will reduce the fine. Or you can simply plea guilty at trial and accept the fine as shown on the ticket.

djino

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