Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Member
Nov 21, 2008
441 posts
106 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
bizzyseller wrote:
Mar 14th, 2017 11:29 am
Invaluable thread with lots of great information.

Alleged Offence: 36kmh over posted speed limit
Alleged Offence Date: June 2016
Trial Date: February 2017
Adjourned Trial Date (disclosure was ready in December 2016, however individual was not aware it was ready): October 2017

Disclosure Details of Alleged Offence:
BEE III Directional with serial number
First Test: 1353 (Power On, Test Button of processing circuitry, road test at 60kmh – all ok)
Offence: 1415
After Test: 1419 (road test at 60 kmh – ok)
Roads: Dry and clear
Lone vehicle moving N/B, Police moving S/B
In car camera: Yes
In car camera of offence: Yes

The in car camera does show video alleged offence, however the camera’s (dashboard/software interface) doesn’t list the radar speed. So all it shows is the vehicle moving at an undetermined rate of speed. Furthermore, the video includes audio of the driving responding to the Officer’s question of “Do you know why I pulled you over”, with a “i think travelling too fast … was talking” (some of the verbal exchange was inaudible due to the police vehicle’s communication radio volume.

Suggestions on next steps would be appreciated.
What province was this?

There needs to be at least 12 months from when you requested a trial to when you get it before you ask for a STAY. However the delay has to be caused by the prosecution. If you asked for a new trial because you did not get disclosure in time, this could be counted against the prosecution, however if disclosure was ready for pick up and you did not check, then the delay would count against you and would not be counted in the 12 months.

When fighting a speeding ticket you need to cross-examine officers on the following:
- When was their initial training they received on radar, and what did it involve (how many days, what was the curriculum)?
- When was their most recent re-training before the ticket was written and what did it involve?
- When were they trained on the device in question?
- What is the exact testing procedure they followed to test the unit? Make sure you review the manual so you know what it is, and make sure they followed it. if they did not follow it, then question then specifically with regards to what is written in the manual.
- What does the certificate of accuracy from the manufacture say the +/- error is on the device?
- When was device last calibrated and certified?
- Does the manual say to use tuning forks? If yes, then were the tuning forks certified and calibrated?
- Did they test the radar unit against a vehicle speedometer? When was the speedometer calibrated/certified? If it was not then, just because the radar matched the speedometer does not mean either of them is accurate.

Basically with speeding offences you need to attack the training and device itself and show that there is a reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of the device. Although it might be probable that the device was accurate or it might be probable that the officer knew what they were doing, probably does not equal beyond a reasonable doubt.
Last edited by jsherk on Mar 16th, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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+++ This is not legal advice, just my opinion! +++
Member
Nov 21, 2008
441 posts
106 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
Havo wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 9:19 am
My court date is coming up within a week. I had originally requested disclosure when I received my court notice but have not received anything. I have even called to follow up and they have advised that nothing was submitted by the officer. I guess I can argue that I did not receive my disclosure and they will likely want to reschedule my court date. Is this correct?
You can try to make a stink in front of JP about how the charge should be dropped because you tried to get disclosure and you took a day off work and it will be hard to get another day off blah blah blah.

Most likely this won't work, and most likely the JP will set another date.

If you still have not gotten disclosure by second date, then that is when you file for a STAY.
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+++ This is not legal advice, just my opinion! +++
Deal Addict
Nov 9, 2008
1951 posts
192 upvotes
Thornhill
anyone haven gotten a HandHeld Device ticket , fought, and won? what's the best course of action for this 490 dollar ticket + 30 day suspension since im G2
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
4737 posts
2310 upvotes
Edmonton
Bencherstyle wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:57 pm
anyone haven gotten a HandHeld Device ticket , fought, and won? what's the best course of action for this 490 dollar ticket + 30 day suspension since im G2
Don't forget the increased insurance...

C
Deal Fanatic
May 31, 2006
5189 posts
139 upvotes
Toronto
jsherk wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:54 pm
You can try to make a stink in front of JP about how the charge should be dropped because you tried to get disclosure and you took a day off work and it will be hard to get another day off blah blah blah.

Most likely this won't work, and most likely the JP will set another date.

If you still have not gotten disclosure by second date, then that is when you file for a STAY.
Thank you. Hopefully it goes well.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
4737 posts
2310 upvotes
Edmonton
Bencherstyle wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 4:01 pm
oh goooooooood
In any case, it's just like any other ticket. Ask for disclosure, and go from there. There's no general purpose advice that's likely to help. Especially with nothing more than a "I got this ticket, how do I fight it" post. Give us something to work with! :)

C
Deal Addict
Nov 9, 2008
1951 posts
192 upvotes
Thornhill
CNeufeld wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 4:21 pm
In any case, it's just like any other ticket. Ask for disclosure, and go from there. There's no general purpose advice that's likely to help. Especially with nothing more than a "I got this ticket, how do I fight it" post. Give us something to work with! :)

C
you're right; it was moreso a question of if anyone had the same ticket i had and had it successfully removed or reduced :0 - is it worth my time...etc... i plan on using the second option, plead guilty but reduced fine - and i wonder if it works .

the fighting your ticket part, im hesitant since you get a 1k fine if you can't defend successfully :S i probably won't go through with that because i was indeed holding a phone :/

also, anyone know if my 30 day suspension start on the day of me being charged guilty (pay the fine and accept guilt) or starting now?
Sr. Member
User avatar
Sep 15, 2014
751 posts
125 upvotes
Scarborough, ON
jsherk wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 8:14 am
What province? In Ontario, if you ignore it you will be found guilty and it will show up on your MTO record and you will not be able to renew your drivers license or vehicle sticker until you pay it.

Does the photo also have a speed on it?

What is the exact charge on the ticket (wording and section number)?

For Ontario, I recommend you plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your Notice of Trial you can then request disclosure. In your disclosure I would ask for the following:
- Make, Model, Serial Number and Date of Manufacutre of the device used to take the photo and the device used to measure the speed.
- Notes of all officers/personnel involved in the installation, setup, calibration of the unit(s) involved.

As a side note, in Ontario, Photo Radar and Red Light Camera tickets are charged to the OWNER of the vehicle and not the driver. This means that they will NOT show up on your driving record and they will NOT cost you any demerit points and they do NOT cause your insurance to go up. So other than the fine, there is nothing else to worry about with this type of ticket.
Ontario.
Yes, it has the speed on it.
"charged with failing to stop at a red light".. "contrary to subsection 144(18.1) and pursuant to section 207 of the highway traffic act"

It also says:
"The provincial offences officer has certified that the red light camera system used in the detection of this offence is a prescribed system, used in a designated area and furthermore that it was in proper working order at the time, that the photographs obtained were recorded by that system and the traffic signals with in proper working order at the time of the offence. Certified photographs will be tendered in evidence at your trial"

I am aware that this ticket is just the fine and not demerit points.. but the fine is bloody expensive.. $325!!! All I'm hoping for is to get the fine reduced. Is this the best way to do this? I don't believe I have any real way of "beating" the ticket..
Cell phones: Zoomer Wireless, Fido.
Credit Cards: Amex Business Gold, Amex SPG

Aggressively collecting SPG points..
Member
Nov 21, 2008
441 posts
106 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
The only way to beat red light ticket is to challenge the equipment itself. If you do not have any experience in court, then this will most likely be impossible for you.

I would still suggest you plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your Notice of Trial you can request disclosure (officers notes and equipment used). I would love to know more about the equipment they use anyways, so if you get this information please post it here.

At your trial date, you can meet with the prosecutor before trial and see if they will agree to a reduced fine amount. They may say no, but that is okay because you can also ask the Justice of the Peace for a reduced fine as well. The JP may also say no, but it certainly does not hurt to ask.
---------------------------------------------------------------
+++ This is not legal advice, just my opinion! +++
Sr. Member
May 9, 2003
743 posts
45 upvotes
jsherk wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:42 pm
What province was this?

There needs to be at least 12 months from when you requested a trial to when you get it before you ask for a STAY. However the delay has to be caused by the prosecution. If you asked for a new trial because you did not get disclosure in time, this could be counted against the prosecution, however if disclosure was ready for pick up and you did not check, then the delay would count against you and would not be counted in the 12 months.

When fighting a speeding ticket you need to cross-examine officers on the following:
- When was their initial training they received on radar, and what did it involve (how many days, what was the curriculum)?
- When was their most recent re-training before the ticket was written and what did it involve?
- When were they trained on the device in question?
- What is the exact testing procedure they followed to test the unit? Make sure you review the manual so you know what it is, and make sure they followed it. if they did not follow it, then question then specifically with regards to what is written in the manual.
- What does the certificate of accuracy from the manufacture say the +/- error is on the device?
- When was device last calibrated and certified?
- Does the manual say to use tuning forks? If yes, then were the tuning forks certified and calibrated?
- Did they test the radar unit against a vehicle speedometer? When was the speedometer calibrated/certified? If it was not then, just because the radar matched the speedometer does not mean either of them is accurate.
Great detailed response!

1) Alleged offence in Ontario
2) The disclosure was ready for pickup, however the prosecution didn't make aware that it was ready. I now understand that this is the defendants responsibility. As such, I believe the time would be used against me for an 11b challenge.
3) Is it typical to ask for the list of items you have mentioned (ie: training, calibration of radar and speedo, certificate of accuracy) in a disclosure request? Or is this "strategy" to be asked on the day of the trial? The original disclosure asked for the manual, however that was not provided. So a follow up disclosure will be submitted.

Thank you.
Newbie
Mar 13, 2017
2 posts
Pickering
I got busted for running a red light, however it doesnt seem correct to me. I come to an intersection. The light is red. I come to a complete stop. I turn right (while the light is still red) and proceed. I get pulled over. The officer tells me there is a sign there that prohibits a right turn on a red (he was correct). But he writes me a fail to stop at a red light ticket. Shouldnt it be a disobey sign or unsafe turn violation? Can a charge be simply changed in court to a different charge to suit the situation? Or can be ticket be thrown out completely with no new charge refiled?
Deal Guru
Aug 2, 2001
14113 posts
4575 upvotes
john.canad wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 11:19 pm
It's not a speeding ticket, it's a distracted driving ticket. No persons or anything else were harmed
Sorry I assumed it was a speeding ticket.

The same goes for distracted driving - it is not a criminal offense.
Jr. Member
Mar 13, 2017
142 posts
74 upvotes
I recently got a parking ticket for parking at a city rec center and walking over to my school. I park her everyday and have never gotten a ticket. About 60 students park here daily but I've never seen a ticket given either. I thought that it was just accepted by them so I just kept parking.. Majority of the lot is empty anyways.

But today I randomly got a ticket, out of everybody. What? I understand that I'm technically wrong, but damn.. Is there any need to ticket somebody going to school when 80 percent of a 2000 car parking lot is empty?

Its 35 dollars. Can I fight this or get it thrown out? Any tips?

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