Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Deal Addict
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Mar 23, 2008
4977 posts
2477 upvotes
Edmonton
mrclassikh1 wrote:
Dec 6th, 2017 7:16 pm
Hey everyone I recently came over this forum because today in the mail I received my notice of trial and need some help in the next steps of the process. I got pulled over on October 24, 2017 at 1:20am in York region speed listed was 85 in a 60 zone its essentially a trap due to a large hill and construction occurring at the same time. I already pleaded not guilty and my trial date is set for October 31st, 2018 would this violate section 11b. ? And if i'm correct my next step should be to request the disclosure right? Sorry i'm new to this.
18 months is the current baseline for an 11b, so no to your first question. And yes to your second one (disclosure). But I sure hope you have a better defence planned than “It’s a trap!”

C
Newbie
User avatar
Jun 6, 2010
96 posts
Richmond Hill
Hi all,

I just got a speeding ticket yesterday in Toronto, the cop was in one of those older Ford models. He says I was going 70 in a 50 km/h zone (coming down on Richmond St E ramp from DVP). There were a few cars around me but not one in front when he tagged me (while coming down the ramp). I assume it was a radar gun? Not sure how accurate they are on cars coming down an elevated ramp? Also, the officer was not in a parked vehicle from what it seemed. He couldn't have clocked me after I came down as I slowed down let another car pass on Power St. before I moved on (I even offered the cop to cross over on Power St. but he budged....I guess he decided to turn and follow instead when I passed).

Got fined $95 and I guess 20 over is 2 demerit points. This is probably my first ticket in 5 yrs. What do you suggest doing? Prosecutor or fight the case? I'm not familiar with the process of acquiring the documents if I choose the court option. Also, if I choose the prosecutor's option and don't like what he's offering am I still eligible to get a court date?

Does anyone ever end up with a reduced fee or no demerit points if the cop shows up in court? Also, I heard cops in Ontario aren't required to test their radar guns anymore before and after gunning someone with it? Is this true? :o A lot of questions, I have not yet ticked and option and done anything...hoping you guys can help answer some of these questions!

thanks, any help is appreciated!
Newbie
Dec 6, 2017
3 posts
TLDR - Is there any way to appeal a JP's decision without paying for the trial transcripts? Alternatively, any way to re-coup those transcript cost, or minimize them?


Awhile ago I received a disobey stop sign ticket, and recently I went to trial for it. At trial, as I came off the stand, the JP asked if I had "anything else to submit", and I gave her some photos of the scene.

She then asked the Prosecutor "do you want to make a closing statement", and the prosecutor went ahead with their closing remarks.

Then, I was prepping to make my closing remarks, when the JP just jumps into her decision. I told the JP that based on the guide the courts provide, I believed that I would have an opportunity to provide a closing statement as well. The JP told me that yes, when she asked if I had anything else to submit, that was my opportunity to make a closing statement, and that she felt bad that I didn't understand that, but "now it's too late".

I've been advised that this, along with some other evidence that I don't believe was given the correct weight, could be grounds for an appeal.

My issue is this - the charges totaled just over $100 along with demerit points and potential insurance implications. My understanding right now is that I need to pay $95 to have the transcripts from that trial produced, and there is no other way for me to begin an appeal, and no way to re-coup that $95 even if judgement is granted in my favour at the appeal.

To me this seems like a significant hiccup in the justice system. I get that my claim may be a small one, but the idea that the court could make a procedural error is made less worrisome because there is an appeal process. But if the cost to appeal is equal to the fine you are appealing, and it's completely non-reimbursable, then it seems like appealing becomes a very poor decision, even if you are correct about your reasons to appeal.

When I brought this concern up to the staff at the appeals court, they said "well, the transcriber needs to be paid". I fully agree, but there are a number of people and expenses related to running an appeal (the Judge's salary, the prosecutor's salary, the court house staff, the courthouse building itself) and the appealant does not pay for any of those - so why must they pay for the services of a transcriber?
Newbie
Dec 5, 2017
3 posts
Yes definitely it was dark and it was raining heavily I approached the hill with caution but as the speed of my car started picking up I pressed the break and felt a slip so for safety reasons I let go of the break and was letting the car slow down on its own I tried explaining this officer but he said that he accounted for the hill and interrupted me and asked for my license
Newbie
Nov 19, 2017
12 posts
Hi ShrekTek,
I have good news. My case was dismissed. I requested a translator and a translator did not show.

Thanks so much for all your help and answer my questions. I prepared a lot of defense documents and photos from the intersection and did not get a chance to use those. I am pretty happy though.

For people reading this thread, here is the court procedure:
1. You get to the court and will be asked if you plead guilty or not.
2. Then you get a chance to speak to the prosecutor about your case, and you may get a reduced fine etc.
3. If no agreement was reached with the prosecutor, you will defend yourself in the court.

Hope this helps.
Member
Jun 15, 2017
345 posts
81 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
sgroup2 wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 1:09 am
Hi all,

I just got a speeding ticket yesterday in Toronto, the cop was in one of those older Ford models. He says I was going 70 in a 50 km/h zone (coming down on Richmond St E ramp from DVP). There were a few cars around me but not one in front when he tagged me (while coming down the ramp). I assume it was a radar gun? Not sure how accurate they are on cars coming down an elevated ramp? Also, the officer was not in a parked vehicle from what it seemed. He couldn't have clocked me after I came down as I slowed down let another car pass on Power St. before I moved on (I even offered the cop to cross over on Power St. but he budged....I guess he decided to turn and follow instead when I passed).

Got fined $95 and I guess 20 over is 2 demerit points. This is probably my first ticket in 5 yrs. What do you suggest doing? Prosecutor or fight the case? I'm not familiar with the process of acquiring the documents if I choose the court option. Also, if I choose the prosecutor's option and don't like what he's offering am I still eligible to get a court date?

Does anyone ever end up with a reduced fee or no demerit points if the cop shows up in court? Also, I heard cops in Ontario aren't required to test their radar guns anymore before and after gunning someone with it? Is this true? :o A lot of questions, I have not yet ticked and option and done anything...hoping you guys can help answer some of these questions!

thanks, any help is appreciated!
Early resolution is mostly a waste of time as you can talk to prosecutor before your trial anyways about plea deals. 20 over is 3 demerits and 15 over is 0 demerits but both affect your insurance the same as insurance does not care about demerits. Most likely if you show up for trial and talk to prosecutor they will probably offer you 15 over (although they have no obligation to offer you any deal at all).

Plead not guilty and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your Notice of Trial in the mail, then you request disclosure (copy of officers notes). Once you get the notes, you can decide if you can beat ticket or should just look for deal. Officers notes will also detail where he got you speeding and what method he used (radar, lidar, pacing).

In Ontario there are NO requirements at all with regards to radar/lidar. The caselaws say that as long as the officer says he was trained and as long as the officer believes the device was working properly, then that is all that needs to be said. Although some caselaw suggest that they should test the device both before and after, this is still not enough to beat ticket if the officer does not do so.
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Member
Jun 15, 2017
345 posts
81 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
dktortor wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 10:26 am
TLDR - Is there any way to appeal a JP's decision without paying for the trial transcripts? Alternatively, any way to re-coup those transcript cost, or minimize them?


Awhile ago I received a disobey stop sign ticket, and recently I went to trial for it. At trial, as I came off the stand, the JP asked if I had "anything else to submit", and I gave her some photos of the scene.

She then asked the Prosecutor "do you want to make a closing statement", and the prosecutor went ahead with their closing remarks.

Then, I was prepping to make my closing remarks, when the JP just jumps into her decision. I told the JP that based on the guide the courts provide, I believed that I would have an opportunity to provide a closing statement as well. The JP told me that yes, when she asked if I had anything else to submit, that was my opportunity to make a closing statement, and that she felt bad that I didn't understand that, but "now it's too late".

I've been advised that this, along with some other evidence that I don't believe was given the correct weight, could be grounds for an appeal.

My issue is this - the charges totaled just over $100 along with demerit points and potential insurance implications. My understanding right now is that I need to pay $95 to have the transcripts from that trial produced, and there is no other way for me to begin an appeal, and no way to re-coup that $95 even if judgement is granted in my favour at the appeal.

To me this seems like a significant hiccup in the justice system. I get that my claim may be a small one, but the idea that the court could make a procedural error is made less worrisome because there is an appeal process. But if the cost to appeal is equal to the fine you are appealing, and it's completely non-reimbursable, then it seems like appealing becomes a very poor decision, even if you are correct about your reasons to appeal.

When I brought this concern up to the staff at the appeals court, they said "well, the transcriber needs to be paid". I fully agree, but there are a number of people and expenses related to running an appeal (the Judge's salary, the prosecutor's salary, the court house staff, the courthouse building itself) and the appealant does not pay for any of those - so why must they pay for the services of a transcriber?
In Ontario, our unjustice system requires that you PAY upfront for 3 official transcipts of all trial dates before you can get your appeal date. There is no exemption to this. And there is no way to recoup the costs afterwards. Basically if you don't have the money, you don't get justice.

I fought a speeding ticket for my wife and lost and it ended up being a $110 fine. I wanted to appeal because there were significant errors during the trial. The trial took place on three different dates for a total of about 5 hours. Total cost for the transcripts if I wanted to appeal was going to be $1,100.00. The cost of the fine and any insruance increase over three years is not even close to that amount. So in the this case the less expensive choice was not to appeal. Is that justice?
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Member
Jun 15, 2017
345 posts
81 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
Happy2017 wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 11:10 am
Hi ShrekTek,
I have good news. My case was dismissed. I requested a translator and a translator did not show.

Thanks so much for all your help and answer my questions. I prepared a lot of defense documents and photos from the intersection and did not get a chance to use those. I am pretty happy though.

For people reading this thread, here is the court procedure:
1. You get to the court and will be asked if you plead guilty or not.
2. Then you get a chance to speak to the prosecutor about your case, and you may get a reduced fine etc.
3. If no agreement was reached with the prosecutor, you will defend yourself in the court.

Hope this helps.
CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR WIN :D
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
4977 posts
2477 upvotes
Edmonton
mrclassikh1 wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 10:46 am
Yes definitely it was dark and it was raining heavily I approached the hill with caution but as the speed of my car started picking up I pressed the break and felt a slip so for safety reasons I let go of the break and was letting the car slow down on its own I tried explaining this officer but he said that he accounted for the hill and interrupted me and asked for my license
Speeding is an "absolute liability" offense. Basically, it doesn't matter WHY you were speeding. Just that you were speeding. So you need to have a way to raise doubt on whether you were speeding or not.

C
Deal Addict
Oct 13, 2014
1032 posts
460 upvotes
Somewhere, ON
dktortor wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 10:26 am
At trial, as I came off the stand, the JP asked if I had "anything else to submit", and I gave her some photos of the scene.

She then asked the Prosecutor "do you want to make a closing statement", and the prosecutor went ahead with their closing remarks.

Then, I was prepping to make my closing remarks, when the JP just jumps into her decision. I told the JP that based on the guide the courts provide, I believed that I would have an opportunity to provide a closing statement as well. The JP told me that yes, when she asked if I had anything else to submit, that was my opportunity to make a closing statement, and that she felt bad that I didn't understand that, but "now it's too late".
First off I usually do not comment on this forum unless the matter is unique and in this case I feel I should add the following for clarification.

The J.P. was correct. In our judicial system there is a definite set of procedures that are followed:
1 - The Crown first presents their case as they have to prove the infraction.
2 - The defence, after the Crown is finished, then has the opportunity to present any evidence they feel may be beneficial to them, whether it is physical evidence or actual testimony. In your case it was actual testimony.
3 - Once you get off the stand you are no longer giving "sworn" testimony, your photos are just that photos, that may or may not assist the J.P.

The presentation of evidence has now concluded and now it is time for the summation. The rules regarding "summation" are as follows:
1 - The last side to present evidence (includes testimony) is the first to summarize. Off the stand the J.P. asked if you had anything further to add, that is your summation.
2 - It now turns to the Crown to summarize, if they so wish.

The J.P. did apologize to you that they were maybe not clear enough, however, it is not up to the J.P. to conduct your defence. If you chose to defend yourself then the J.P. can chose to acknowledge that you know the rules of law, including the procedural steps in a trial, as I noted above.

A very good recent example of this can be found in present trial of R. vs Millard going on this minute. The Crown presented it's case, Millard presented evidence of his own. The summation in the trial is that Millard went/goes first, then the other defence lawyer and now the Crown will present their closing arguments.
“When you marry the right woman, you are ‘complete.’ If you marry the wrong woman, you are ‘finished.’ And, if the right one catches you with the wrong one, you are ‘completely finished.'"
Newbie
Dec 5, 2017
3 posts
CNeufeld wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 12:05 pm
Speeding is an "absolute liability" offense. Basically, it doesn't matter WHY you were speeding. Just that you were speeding. So you need to have a way to raise doubt on whether you were speeding or not.


C
So would my best bet be to go with the deal that the prosecutor offers me?
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
4977 posts
2477 upvotes
Edmonton
mrclassikh1 wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 1:23 pm
So would my best bet be to go with the deal that the prosecutor offers me?
You can request disclosure first, to see if there's any holes in the officer's statements. You can try to get a deal with the prosecutor on trial day, or see if the officer doesn't show. You don't have much to lose by taking it to trial, except your time. Only you can tell whether it's worth it to you or not. There's nothing saying the prosecutor will offer you any deal, for that matter. They're under no obligation to do so.

C
Newbie
Dec 6, 2017
3 posts
ShrekTek wrote:
Dec 7th, 2017 11:40 am
In Ontario, our unjustice system requires that you PAY upfront for 3 official transcipts of all trial dates before you can get your appeal date. There is no exemption to this. And there is no way to recoup the costs afterwards. Basically if you don't have the money, you don't get justice.

I fought a speeding ticket for my wife and lost and it ended up being a $110 fine. I wanted to appeal because there were significant errors during the trial. The trial took place on three different dates for a total of about 5 hours. Total cost for the transcripts if I wanted to appeal was going to be $1,100.00. The cost of the fine and any insruance increase over three years is not even close to that amount. So in the this case the less expensive choice was not to appeal. Is that justice?
Yeah that's been my experience so far, and it seems very.... yeah, unjust. What's the purpose of having an appeal system if the consequence of triggering an appeal is more damaging than the consequence of the original conviction?
Newbie
Jan 28, 2012
8 posts
CALGARY
I have a trial for a photo-radar ticket next Friday (Dec 15) where I was caught going 67 in a 50 zone. There are no other cars in the picture so I can’t defend it that way unfortunately. I read through the Alberta Automated Traffic Enforcement Technology Guidelines and in section 5c it says

“Existing automated traffic enforcement technology sites must be advertised on a monthly basis by notifying the local media and posting on an established website, where possible.”

I found the City of Calgary posting for the month I got the ticket and it doesn’t list the road or any of the neighboring communities. Should I use this in my trial?

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