Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Member
Jun 15, 2017
428 posts
104 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
cookiesntea wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 4:43 pm
Hi guys, new here. I wanted to get some of your opinions on this red light ticket I got this morning.

Roads were a complete mess this morning in Montreal after heavy snowfall the night prior.Heavy bumper to bumper traffic, clear weather conditions, 0 Celsius .

I was turning right at a T shape intersection. The light was green for me, so I engaged. Mid way through my turn 2 kids(rushing to school I assume) appeared out of no where and decided to run across so naturally I stopped, gestured at them in "come on, go ahead" way. While they were running across, the light shifted from green to amber and by the time they were on the other side the light turned red. About 30 meters away, hidden behind a pile of snow at a private business entrance was a police car that pulled me over. To add to that, the intersection in question does not have a crosswalk-specific light for pedestrians with the countdown numbers. Nor I nor the kids knew how much time the had to cross. Was I really in the wrong here?

Also interesting fact, the police officer didn't even come out of his car to ask me for license and registration. He simply pulled me over, wrote down his ticket, came to my window and said drive safely.

Its not really the fine that bothers me, its more the 3 points of demerit on my almost spotless driving record that does. Should I try and contest it or bite the bullet and pony up? Would this be a classic case of my words against his?
In Ontario, if you were already in the intersection then you would not be guilty. The light has to change and then you pass into the intersection. If you are already in the intersection when the light changes then that is not an offence.

Quebec is a whole other world of guilty until proven innocent and I do not know the rules there.
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Sr. Member
Jul 20, 2009
545 posts
64 upvotes
Toronto
ShrekTek wrote:
Jan 8th, 2018 12:19 pm
Was the manual given to you as part of disclosure or did you download it from the internet somewhere?

The only way to know for sure more specifically about what happened, is to cross-examine the officer while they are on the stand. The downside of this is that you don't know what they will say and you don't know if it will help you or hurt you.
So did the officer lose sight of you and then catch up? If yes, then good chance it was the wrong vehicle.
Was the officer travelling the other direction when they clocked you? If so, then it could not have been you because they said the device was in SAME direction mode.
How did the officer test the unit? Did they follow the manufacturers instructions?
How did they test the unit? Need to ask them specifically to go thru the steps they followed.

There is caselaw for Ontario (unfortunately I don't know it off the top of my head) that does suggest the officers need to test device both before and after. My guess is that those times are test times, but you should ask that question in another letter to prosecutor for further explanation of what those times are (if they are even times).

Radar does NOT tell you what vehicle it is picking up. Radar has two modes... strongest and fastest mode.
- In fastest mode, the unit displays the speed of the fastest signal it is getting. This could be any of the vehicles that are in it's beam, so usually the officer will say something like "I observed the vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed compared to other vehicles, and the radar unit displays the fastest speed of all signals it is receiving and this vehicle was faster than the other vehciles and the speed indicated on the unit matched my estimated speed of the vehicle."
- In strongest mode, the unit displays the speed of the strongest signal it is getting (not the fastest). This is usually the closest vehicle, but not always. For example if a car is close but there is a large transport truck that is a little further away, the truck could be strongest signal. Again the radar does not indicate which vehicle the signal is coming from, so offciers testimony should say something about the estimated speed of the vehicle matching the reading on the display.
So I went to court yesterday. Prosecutor offered to lower it to 15 over however the Justice said no lol so I requested an adjournment on the grounds that I only received disclosure last week and was granted a new court date in May.

The times were as we suspected when the officer tested the radar so that throws that out of the window unless I can prove he didn't test it according to the manual, which I can try I guess.

I think my best defence and it seems reasonable to me is to try and prove there was a chance the radar did not capture my vehicle. Please let me know if you have seen this work, if there are obvious flaws or areas I need to be careful.

- There is no video evidence
- I was stopped at a red light 700m west of where he radar me
- 100m east of where he radar me the speed limit changes to 80kph
- I travel this area frequently and it is very common for a vehicle to be doing 100kph in the 80kph area, it's a long straight stretch of road that turns into the 401 highway
- I would try to get the officer to testify that there were other vehicles on the roadway
- I would try to get the officer to testify that he's witnessed other vehicles travel 100kph or in excess of that on this roadway before (or perhaps I can find other cases on this road with speeding tickets of that magnitude)
- I would try to get the officer to testify that based on the distance behind me, the bridge in front and the other cars on the road it was not possible for him to view all the way down the roadway in front (I know this because it was not visible for me) I could also get pictures of the area and show that the entire roadway isn't visible. I could even get video of other vehicles travelling in excess of the speed limit based off my dash cam which will show me traveling the 80kph if that would help although it would be more difficult and time consuming for me.
- I would get the officer to testify about the mode of the radar (either fastest or strongest) and explain that it does not target a specific vehicle

Closing remarks would be to sum up that the radar did not target me, the officer could not see the full roadway and it is a common area where vehicles travel 100kph, the officer cannot say for certain that the radar targeted my vehicle, and consequently there is a reasonable chance that the radar returned the results from a different vehicle.


And finally, the officer told the prosecutor that the first available date for him would be mid May. They switched other cases for him to that date as well so I bet he will show up. Do you think I can try to push for an earlier court date? I bet there would be a better chance he doesn't show.
Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2009
143 posts
4 upvotes
Hi Guys,

Below are the facts of my situation, I am seeking advice on my next steps and how to proceed given the circumstances.

* Received 78.1 (Driving with hand held device ticket) on April 28, 2017

* Requested notice of trial on July 6, with a trial date of Jan 17th, 2018

* Requested disclosure from the prosecutor using the forms provided in the notice of trial on Nov 8th, 2017

* Did not receive disclosure, and filed form 4F - notice of constitutional question to prosecutor & attorney generals. This form was filed on Jan 2, 2017, and probably does not meet the requirement of being filing at least 15 days before the trial date (not counting filing date/court date).

* After filing 4f, I got a call from the prosecutors office that my disclosure is ready to pickup on Jan 8th, 2017 (8 days before trial).

What would appropriate next steps be for me? Should I pick up the disclosure? Would it be reasonable to request an adjournment or stay of trial in this situation?
Sr. Member
Jul 20, 2009
545 posts
64 upvotes
Toronto
roats wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 12:28 pm
Hi Guys,

Below are the facts of my situation, I am seeking advice on my next steps and how to proceed given the circumstances.

* Received 78.1 (Driving with hand held device ticket) on April 28, 2017

* Requested notice of trial on July 6, with a trial date of Jan 17th, 2018

* Requested disclosure from the prosecutor using the forms provided in the notice of trial on Nov 8th, 2017

* Did not receive disclosure, and filed form 4F - notice of constitutional question to prosecutor & attorney generals. This form was filed on Jan 2, 2017, and probably does not meet the requirement of being filing at least 15 days before the trial date (not counting filing date/court date).

* After filing 4f, I got a call from the prosecutors office that my disclosure is ready to pickup on Jan 8th, 2017 (8 days before trial).

What would appropriate next steps be for me? Should I pick up the disclosure? Would it be reasonable to request an adjournment or stay of trial in this situation?
An adjournment is reasonable and should be granted because this is your first court appearance, and you did not have time to prepare a defence.

How difficult is it for you to get the disclosure? I would try to get in advance to see if you have a leg to stand on and it should not effect your request for an adjournment if you wish.
Member
Jun 15, 2017
428 posts
104 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
P0rkchop wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 8:54 am
So I went to court yesterday. Prosecutor offered to lower it to 15 over however the Justice said no lol so I requested an adjournment on the grounds that I only received disclosure last week and was granted a new court date in May.

The times were as we suspected when the officer tested the radar so that throws that out of the window unless I can prove he didn't test it according to the manual, which I can try I guess.

I think my best defence and it seems reasonable to me is to try and prove there was a chance the radar did not capture my vehicle. Please let me know if you have seen this work, if there are obvious flaws or areas I need to be careful.

- There is no video evidence
- I was stopped at a red light 700m west of where he radar me
- 100m east of where he radar me the speed limit changes to 80kph
- I travel this area frequently and it is very common for a vehicle to be doing 100kph in the 80kph area, it's a long straight stretch of road that turns into the 401 highway
- I would try to get the officer to testify that there were other vehicles on the roadway
- I would try to get the officer to testify that he's witnessed other vehicles travel 100kph or in excess of that on this roadway before (or perhaps I can find other cases on this road with speeding tickets of that magnitude)
- I would try to get the officer to testify that based on the distance behind me, the bridge in front and the other cars on the road it was not possible for him to view all the way down the roadway in front (I know this because it was not visible for me) I could also get pictures of the area and show that the entire roadway isn't visible. I could even get video of other vehicles travelling in excess of the speed limit based off my dash cam which will show me traveling the 80kph if that would help although it would be more difficult and time consuming for me.
- I would get the officer to testify about the mode of the radar (either fastest or strongest) and explain that it does not target a specific vehicle

Closing remarks would be to sum up that the radar did not target me, the officer could not see the full roadway and it is a common area where vehicles travel 100kph, the officer cannot say for certain that the radar targeted my vehicle, and consequently there is a reasonable chance that the radar returned the results from a different vehicle.


And finally, the officer told the prosecutor that the first available date for him would be mid May. They switched other cases for him to that date as well so I bet he will show up. Do you think I can try to push for an earlier court date? I bet there would be a better chance he doesn't show.
Most likely you will have different prosecutor AND different JP at the next trial date, so you can try for a plea deal again if that is what you want.

If no plea deal then you might as well take it to trial... worst case is you lose and still have the ticket!

If you want to attack the possibility of the radar picking up a different vehicle, then the only way to achieve this is during cross-examination and actually getting the officer to admit that it could have been a different vehicle. If the officer is positive that it was your vehicle, and does not waver in their testimony, then you will not win. Your opinion of the matter is irrelevent. You need the officer to admit that if could have possibly been a different vehicle (which most likely the officer will not admit). If the officer actually does admit it, then during your closing statements to the JP you say that "the officer admitted it could have been a different vehicle that was picked up by the radar and therefore that brings reasonable doubt to the charge and it should be dropped." Again, you will need to read up on how to properly cross-examine and you will need to be prepared for the fact that the officer most likely will stick to the their opinion that it was your vehicle. As long as the officer sticks to his opinion that it was your vehicle, then the JP will believe him.

You can ask for earlier date, but they usually schedule trial dates based on the officers schedule so if officer is not available sooner then they wont give you a sooner date.
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Member
Jun 15, 2017
428 posts
104 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
roats wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 12:28 pm
Hi Guys,

Below are the facts of my situation, I am seeking advice on my next steps and how to proceed given the circumstances.

* Received 78.1 (Driving with hand held device ticket) on April 28, 2017

* Requested notice of trial on July 6, with a trial date of Jan 17th, 2018

* Requested disclosure from the prosecutor using the forms provided in the notice of trial on Nov 8th, 2017

* Did not receive disclosure, and filed form 4F - notice of constitutional question to prosecutor & attorney generals. This form was filed on Jan 2, 2017, and probably does not meet the requirement of being filing at least 15 days before the trial date (not counting filing date/court date).

* After filing 4f, I got a call from the prosecutors office that my disclosure is ready to pickup on Jan 8th, 2017 (8 days before trial).

What would appropriate next steps be for me? Should I pick up the disclosure? Would it be reasonable to request an adjournment or stay of trial in this situation?
Show up for trial and ask them for a new trial date so you have more time to review the disclosure and prepare your defense.

In Ontario, filling constitutional question for lack of disclosure at first trial date is a waste of time. Caselaw says they will tell prosecutor to get it for you and set new trial date. Constitutional question will only work on 2nd or 3rd trial dates.

Once you get the disclosure, post it here so we can review it (black out personal and officer info).
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
5186 posts
2604 upvotes
Edmonton
P0rkchop wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 1:24 pm
An adjournment is reasonable and should be granted because this is your first court appearance, and you did not have time to prepare a defence.

How difficult is it for you to get the disclosure? I would try to get in advance to see if you have a leg to stand on and it should not effect your request for an adjournment if you wish.
You might as well pick up the disclosure now. Whether you pick it up or not, it was available on January 8th. That's not going to change if you don't pick it up.

You can request an adjournment, but what's the point? Unless you truly need time to prepare your defense, it will mean at least one additional court date for you. I guess you could go to the first trial date, see if the officer shows up. If he doesn't, you will likely get a new court date (you likely won't get a stay for the first missed appearance) and the delay would be on the prosecution. If the officer does show up, you can request your stay and/or delay with the hopes of the officer not showing up for the second date. The odds of dragging it out for 18 months to delay it enough to get a stay based on time are slim.

You most likely won't get a stay for delayed disclosure.

C
Newbie
Oct 3, 2008
11 posts
Waterloo, ON
j4yin wrote:
Jun 28th, 2017 11:52 am
Thank you! I will post the disclosures as soon as I get them. :)
j4yin wrote:
Jun 28th, 2017 11:52 am

Thank you! I will post the disclosures as soon as I get them. :)
ShrekTek wrote:
Jun 27th, 2017 4:46 pm
Once you get your Notice of Trial with a trial date, you need to ask for disclosure (copy of officers notes). You will need to carefully read the notes and see if everything looks correct or not. Post them here and we can review them to see if they are accurate or not.

As far as insurance goes, inusrance companies do not care about demerits, so most likely the fine will count as a minor (the same as if it was on 15 over).

Now worst case is that you try to fight it and you lose and you still have to pay the same amount. A lot of times though prosecutors will offer a plea deal to a reduced charge so you might get it down to something like 29 over with 3 demerits. And if the officers notes are not good maybe you can get off completely. Also in Toronto it takes a long time to get a trial so sometimes you can get off because you did not get your right to a speedy trial.
Hi ShrekTek,
After 6 months I got my disclosures today as attached. Also there’s a DVD, I yet to review caz my mac doesn’t have a DVD drive. The only discrepancy is there were two cars in front of me. Anyways, please take a look and see if I have a good case? Lol
Since they have video avidence, they probably have a good case against me. In this case should I ask for a plea deal on the trial day? Also, I heard that they could add court fees on top of the fine if I lose at trail, is this true?
Thanks for your help! The trail is at the end of Feb. Fingers crossed.
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Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
5186 posts
2604 upvotes
Edmonton
j4yin wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 4:51 pm
Hi ShrekTek,
After 6 months I got my disclosures today as attached. Also there’s a DVD, I yet to review caz my mac doesn’t have a DVD drive. The only discrepancy is there were two cars in front of me. Anyways, please take a look and see if I have a good case? Lol
Since they have video avidence, they probably have a good case against me. In this case should I ask for a plea deal on the trial day? Also, I heard that they could add court fees on top of the fine if I lose at trail, is this true?
Thanks for your help! The trail is at the end of Feb. Fingers crossed.
Even without the video evidence, if the officer shows up, your best bet is trying to negotiate a deal. Based on the officer's notes you don't have much of a case. Not sure about the extra court fees.

C
Newbie
Jan 9, 2018
0 posts
Hi, couple days ago I received Notice of Intent to Prohibit my licence due to the ticket I got last May. It was driving without consideration. I disputed the ticket and I was waiting for the court date. I suspect that I missed the court date because I didn't updated my address. I changed my address on my driver's licence and thought it was the same. Should I go to court and appeal to them to reopen my case? Will they approve it? Should I just hire a lawyer? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Member
Jun 15, 2017
428 posts
104 upvotes
Ontario, Canada
j4yin wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 4:51 pm
Hi ShrekTek,
After 6 months I got my disclosures today as attached. Also there’s a DVD, I yet to review caz my mac doesn’t have a DVD drive. The only discrepancy is there were two cars in front of me. Anyways, please take a look and see if I have a good case? Lol
Since they have video avidence, they probably have a good case against me. In this case should I ask for a plea deal on the trial day? Also, I heard that they could add court fees on top of the fine if I lose at trail, is this true?
Thanks for your help! The trail is at the end of Feb. Fingers crossed.
Officers notes are good so not much hope of beating it. Even an experienced paralegal/lawyer would probably not be able to beat it.

Did you request testing procedures for LIDAR manual?

So chances of beating it are if officer does not show up (slim to none), or if officer did not follow proper testing procedure in manual (slim to none), or if you hire your own expert witness to counter the officers testimony (expensive).
--
I am not a lawyer and I am not a paralegal and I do not give legal advice.
All statements made are my opinion only.
--
ShrekTek.ca
Newbie
Oct 3, 2008
11 posts
Waterloo, ON
ShrekTek wrote:
Jan 10th, 2018 8:12 pm
Officers notes are good so not much hope of beating it. Even an experienced paralegal/lawyer would probably not be able to beat it.

Did you request testing procedures for LIDAR manual?

So chances of beating it are if officer does not show up (slim to none), or if officer did not follow proper testing procedure in manual (slim to none), or if you hire your own expert witness to counter the officers testimony (expensive).
Thanks for he input,
So what should I do? Ask for a plea deal on the court date or should I just pay the fine now? Can I still do that since I requested the trail?
Member
Apr 20, 2008
266 posts
40 upvotes
I just got a speeding ticket in the mail. I'm thinking of fighting it. In the pictures I can see that the light was yellow before and when I was in the middle of the intersection. I was traveling at 98kph in 70kph zone according to the ticket. The road was snowed a little. I think I was trying to make the light and I wouldn't have been able to stop if I didn't speed up in time. This was in Calgary. I am worry that if I say that I was trying to make the light and the road was slippery and therefore I wouldn't have been able to stop in time that the judge will say that I was driving carelessly. I also don't know if I have the time to go to court. I heard that there are traffic agent people that can attend the court on your behalf and perhaps fight it for you. Is this a good idea? Has anyone uses a traffic agent before? Would it be considered as driving carelessly when the road is slippery and I sped up to make the light?
Member
Apr 20, 2008
266 posts
40 upvotes
I just got a speeding ticket in the mail. I'm thinking of fighting it. In the pictures I can see that the light was yellow before and when I was in the middle of the intersection. I was traveling at 98kph in 70kph zone according to the ticket. The road was snowed a little. I think I was trying to make the light and I wouldn't have been able to stop if I didn't speed up in time. This was in Calgary. I am worry that if I say that I was trying to make the light and the road was slippery and therefore I wouldn't have been able to stop in time that the judge will say that I was driving carelessly. I also don't know if I have the time to go to court. I heard that there are traffic agent people that can attend the court on your behalf and perhaps fight it for you. Is this a good idea? Has anyone uses a traffic agent before? Would it be considered as driving carelessly when the road is slippery and I sped up to make the light?

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