Home & Garden

[2024 CODE UPDATE] Ask me anything about home electrical requirements, electrical code, wiring, devices

  • Last Updated:
  • Mar 26th, 2024 3:58 pm
Tags:
None
Deal Addict
Mar 28, 2008
2076 posts
902 upvotes
ON
Why not put it all in one conduit? (kind of like your original but without the second runs beside)
puccagirl wrote: Thanks sprdave... my plans are to run 1 x 1" EMT conduit from branch circuits to Transfer switch, and 1 x 1" EMT conduit from transfer switch to electrical panel. All conductors for each circuit will be included (neutrals), #14 wires increased to #12 to avoid voltage drop and account for de-rating.

The neutrals will just loop through the transfer switch, to avoid the EMF issue.

I know its running two conduits, but I think it still should meet code, as the branch circuit feeders (with neutrals) to the house (plugs/lights) are in one conduit, and line side to the 15A breakers (with neutrals) are in another conduit to the panel.

There may not be any perfect way to do this, given the type of transfer switch.
Jr. Member
Sep 6, 2008
105 posts
12 upvotes
Edmonton, AB
sprdave wrote: Why not put it all in one conduit? (kind of like your original but without the second runs beside)
Sprdave: if I put all conductors in one conduit, it would be about 30 conductors in one conduit (some of the single circuits come from three wire nmd, so I have bring a few more conductors through the transfer switch), and I don't have a 1 1/4" bender (plus it would be quite a higher cost). Also the neutrals looped through the transfer switch, just coming out of the conduit and going back in would appear a bit weird (just to meet code). Separating line and load I think still keeps it very neat and organized.

Looking back at the little 1/2" aluminum flex that came with it, this has come a long ways from that :)
Deal Addict
Mar 28, 2008
2076 posts
902 upvotes
ON
fisher44 wrote: i have an older house (built 1949) that apparently has had some random electrical upgrades done to it. there's still an old fuse box and a lot of the romex is old and cloth-covered. i'm trying to find out if any of it has a ground wire inside without having to disconnect the wire in any way... is there a way to tell from the printing on the sheath/cover/cloth? all the outlets in the house have been replaced with 3-prong outlets, but none of them appear to be grounded. there is, however, an old cloth-covered romex wire clamped to the plumbing that goes into the ground. i'm assuming the other end attaches to the fuse box somehow, but am not sure because the basement is partially finished and i can't follow the cables very far.
In the early days of wiring with ground, it says "with ground" on the sheath. The last wire I say like this was green "14/2 with ground". That doesn't mean it's connected at either or both ends though. Take the panel cover off and some receptacles off and see.
westom wrote: Or the circuit breaker must be replaced with a GFCI type.
Or use a GFCI receptacle and feed the rest of the circuit from the load side. Note: this does not give you a ground, it only provides life safety.
westom wrote:
Third, some history. Fuse boxes existed when two wire cables were sufficient. Fuse boxes were eliminated in new construction about the same time three wire cables were required. Based upon those facts, any wire that was original would probably be two wire. But again, that is not always true. Since some homes of that period wired three wire cables to the first receptacle box. And then two wire after that.

Sixth, apparently an earth ground does not exist. In the fuse box days, a cold water pipe was once considered an earth ground. Today, that wire to water pipes is only bonding - for human safety. Is no longer sufficient for an earth ground. Installed must be a quarter inch , solid, bare copper wire from the fuse box to earth ground electrodes. This wire is required for human safety. If properly installed (to also exceed safety code requirements), then this wire has no sharp bends, is as short as possible (ie less than 10 feet), and best routes away from other non-grounding wires. If this wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then it has sharp bends, is too long, and is bundled with other non-grounding wires. This last requirement is often completely unknown to electricians.
westom, you need to be more careful what you say that you don't know.

In just the last few days, Ive been in 1979 and 1977 houses with a fuse panel. And in a 1961 house with (original) ground wiring. You count the years.

In today's days, water pipe electrode for system grounding is still suitable in the right conditions. Grounding conductor to electrode must be 6awg and are stranded. Those requirements are apparently "unknown" since they aren't actually requirements nor do they have benefit for system grounding. Those are specs for lightning protection.
Deal Addict
Mar 28, 2008
2076 posts
902 upvotes
ON
puccagirl wrote: Sprdave: if I put all conductors in one conduit, it would be about 30 conductors in one conduit (some of the single circuits come from three wire nmd, so I have bring a few more conductors through the transfer switch), and I don't have a 1 1/4" bender (plus it would be quite a higher cost). Also the neutrals looped through the transfer switch, just coming out of the conduit and going back in would appear a bit weird (just to meet code). Separating line and load I think still keeps it very neat and organized.

Looking back at the little 1/2" aluminum flex that came with it, this has come a long ways from that :)
In your original drawing you had what, 13 conductors to the switch? (6 line, 6 load, 1 neutral). With PVC you need a bond so that's 14. Even 3/4" would be okay if you used T90.

I don't understand what else you're trying to do or accomplish. You don't need to run all the circuit neutrals through that switch (as it doesn't switch them) and doing so doesn't eliminate the emf.
Member
Jul 6, 2009
384 posts
110 upvotes
sprdave wrote: In the early days of wiring with ground, it says "with ground" on the sheath. The last wire I
In just the last few days, Ive been in 1979 and 1977 houses with a fuse panel. And in a 1961 house with (original) ground wiring. You count the years.

In today's days, water pipe electrode for system grounding is still suitable in the right conditions. Grounding conductor to electrode must be 6awg and are stranded.
In the early 1960s, new homes could not longer use a main fuse box. However that requirement may have not arrived in some venues. Three wire cables were not required then. So yes, the summary was only ballpark. Which is why inspection of his fuse box is still necessary. Ballpark estimation was only an example of what should have caused his home inspector to be suspicious or curious.

Stranded 6AWG wire is not longer acceptable for earthing. Stranded wire corrodes faster. No longer acceptable because grounds must remain intact for decades. Some venues may still permit it. They shouldn't.

Cold water pipe is no longer sufficient for earthing. It is listed in code as an earthing electrode. But some other earthing electrode must also be installed.
Jr. Member
Sep 6, 2008
105 posts
12 upvotes
Edmonton, AB
sprdave wrote: In your original drawing you had what, 13 conductors to the switch? (6 line, 6 load, 1 neutral). With PVC you need a bond so that's 14. Even 3/4" would be okay if you used T90.

I don't understand what else you're trying to do or accomplish. You don't need to run all the circuit neutrals through that switch (as it doesn't switch them) and doing so doesn't eliminate the emf.
For each hot, I need its associated neutral (so that I get both current flow in both directions to cancel each other out), so for 6 hots, I need 6 neutrals... that would be twelve conductors load side, and twelve conductors line side. subtotal 24... Plus I think four or so of the single circuits I'm running through the transfer switch are fed throughout the house with 3 wire NMD... (where I am not feeding the other hot from the transfer switch). Add those, plus the #10 from the 30A (max) generator, to feed all the neutrals, when on generator power only. Sorry if this sounds confusing.
Sr. Member
Aug 6, 2014
830 posts
300 upvotes
Ottawa, ON
sprdave wrote: In the early days of wiring with ground, it says "with ground" on the sheath. The last wire I say like this was green "14/2 with ground". That doesn't mean it's connected at either or both ends though. Take the panel cover off and some receptacles off and see.
thank you!

quite a few of the wires do say "with ground" on the sheath, once i dusted them off. a few say NMD-7, which i've read means they're rated for 90°C (which was standard in 1984 and therefore those cables should have a ground in them?).

i want to get the fuse panel replaced anyway. i tried to take the panel cover off but couldn't, it's pretty much jammed on there. i'm sure that's not good. i've checked a few receptacles and they are not grounded, even though there should be a ground wire in the cable.

i've got one armored cable coming out of the fuse panel and it goes alongside the main beam of the house but then i have no idea where it goes. any guesses what it's for, or why i'd only have a single bx cable?
Jr. Member
Sep 6, 2008
105 posts
12 upvotes
Edmonton, AB
sprdave wrote: In your original drawing you had what, 13 conductors to the switch? (6 line, 6 load, 1 neutral). With PVC you need a bond so that's 14. Even 3/4" would be okay if you used T90.

I don't understand what else you're trying to do or accomplish. You don't need to run all the circuit neutrals through that switch (as it doesn't switch them) and doing so doesn't eliminate the emf.
sprdave.. sorry to confuse you. I've updated the drawing...

[IMG]http://www.redhat.systems/APC%20Transfe ... -2015a.jpg[/IMG]

It reflects running the hot and each associated neutral along with it in the conduit.

If I could get away with one conduit, I would have, but, with the derating, and keeping the neutrals with each hot, I can't see how I can.
Sr. Member
Dec 3, 2002
517 posts
44 upvotes
BC
Hello,
I got a contractor to pull a new circuit for a stove (existing is a gas type).
The stove specs said it needs a 40A breaker, so I asked for a 40A service to be installed. The run is relatively short (~30-35 feet from the main panel).
The contractor put in 3c-8/3 stranded aluminum. Thinking back, I should have asked for cable good enough for 50A since that is more typically used for stoves, but I didn't know as much then.
Is the 8/3 aluminum to code? I'm in BC. Thanks!
Deal Addict
Mar 28, 2008
2076 posts
902 upvotes
ON
puccagirl wrote: For each hot, I need its associated neutral (so that I get both current flow in both directions to cancel each other out), so for 6 hots, I need 6 neutrals... that would be twelve conductors load side, and twelve conductors line side. subtotal 24... Plus I think four or so of the single circuits I'm running through the transfer switch are fed throughout the house with 3 wire NMD... (where I am not feeding the other hot from the transfer switch). Add those, plus the #10 from the 30A (max) generator, to feed all the neutrals, when on generator power only. Sorry if this sounds confusing.
You can't run a multi-wire circuit from two systems. It's one or the other.

You don't need to run all the neutrals back and forth, it accomplishes nothing, since if you run the lines and loads together they will cancel each other. It's just adding wire/conduit and voltage drop unnecessarily.

See:


[IMG]http://s8.postimg.org/6ptmtr0l1/APC_Tra ... dified.jpg[/IMG]
Deal Addict
Mar 28, 2008
2076 posts
902 upvotes
ON
westom wrote: in the early 1960s, new homes could not longer use a main fuse box. However that requirement may have not arrived in some venues. Three wire cables were not required then. So yes, the summary was only ballpark. Which is why inspection of his fuse box is still necessary. Ballpark estimation was only an example of what should have caused his home inspector to be suspicious or curious.

Stranded 6awg wire is not longer acceptable for earthing. Stranded wire corrodes faster. No longer acceptable because grounds must remain intact for decades. Some venues may still permit it. They shouldn't.

Cold water pipe is no longer sufficient for earthing. It is listed in code as an earthing electrode. But some other earthing electrode must also be installed.
lol
Jr. Member
Sep 6, 2008
105 posts
12 upvotes
Edmonton, AB
sprdave wrote: You can't run a multi-wire circuit from two systems. It's one or the other.

You don't need to run all the neutrals back and forth, it accomplishes nothing, since if you run the lines and loads together they will cancel each other. It's just adding wire/conduit and voltage drop unnecessarily.

sprdave.. . I misunderstood.. I got you now.. thanks for modifying the drawing :)
Deal Addict
User avatar
Oct 15, 2015
2670 posts
2789 upvotes
Montreal, QC
I want to replace a motor of fan. Did anybody knows where I can but it. or give me a website of the electronic device store.
Thanks in advance.
Sr. Member
Aug 6, 2014
830 posts
300 upvotes
Ottawa, ON
westom wrote: Apparently (maybe) someone replaced two prong receptacles with three prong - due to contempt for human life.
gonna hazard a guess that someone maybe just wanted to plug in stuff with 3 prongs, rather than had some sort of malicious deathwish for future occupants
Member
Jul 6, 2009
384 posts
110 upvotes
fisher44 wrote: gonna hazard a guess that someone maybe just wanted to plug in stuff with 3 prongs, rather than had some sort of malicious deathwish for future occupants
I only wanted to get to a bathroom. So I ran many red lights. I did not have some sort of malicious deathwish for other motorists. I just needed to use a bathroom.
Newbie
Jan 4, 2011
33 posts
Toronto
I am adding a bathroom to my basement. Everything is down to studs. I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
My list is:
Install shower, toilet, vanity-sink.
With recessed light in the shower, potlights in rest of bathroom, exhaust fan and a GCFI plug.
My current wiring is 14/2 and 15amp.
QUESTION - Does code say must be 12/2 and 20amp in bathroom?
QUESTION – Does code say GCFI has to be on its own breaker? Can I do a series and just make sure the GCFI is the last in the series?
QUESTION – Does code say it is ok if I put all above on one breaker as long as GCFI is last in series?
Newbie
Aug 18, 2004
92 posts
26 upvotes
Hi, I was hoping someone would know. I'm renovating my basement for my townhome. Near the bottom of the stair case, there's a gray access panel on the floor that is within the vicinity of the electrical box. I've opened up the access panel, and it has nothing to do with plumbing, and appears something to do with the ground work probably during construction. No live wires, conduit, or anything, potentially some grounding. Is this commonly done, and what is the purpose if anyone knows? I want to carpet the area, but it's causing the floor to be uneven. I want to cement and level it, if there's no further use. The actual grounding from the electrical panel is connected to a grounding pole, so not quite sure why they needed this.
Member
Jul 6, 2009
384 posts
110 upvotes
Skye_Young wrote: there's a gray access panel on the floor that is within the vicinity of the electrical box. I've opened up the access panel, and it has nothing to do with plumbing, and appears something to do with the ground work probably during construction. No live wires, conduit, or anything, potentially some grounding. Is this commonly done, and what is the purpose if anyone knows?
Breaker box must make a connection to a nearby earth ground electrode. Maybe that is your earth ground? It would have a quarter inch bare copper wire from that electrode to breaker box. If done properly, an incoming phone line 'whole house' protector and the shield of an incoming cable TV or satellite dish wire also connects to that electrode.

That electrode must be available for inspection.

Where is your earth ground? Is that it? Trace every bare copper wire to learn what/if your box and associated communication wires are grounded as required by code.
Member
Jul 6, 2009
384 posts
110 upvotes
schuey99 wrote: I am adding a bathroom to my basement. Everything is down to studs.
In some venues, they want any light within a meter of the shower to be on a GFCI. Well, that is a problem since a tripped GFCI means an occupant is trapped in the dark. Best, if you can, is to put recessed lights away from a shower so that a tripped GFCI need not cut power to lights.

It is probably not required by code in your area. But some venues want a shower or tub drain to also be hardwire safety grounded. It makes sense. But at a minimum, I would bond water pipes to the shower drain pipe. Then no voltage different exists between any metal in the shower - no chance of electrical shock.

What else is powered by that 15 amp circuit?
Newbie
Aug 18, 2004
92 posts
26 upvotes
Thanks Westom, I was able to contact the builder. The access panel was for the backflow preventer valve. Will need to figure out a creative way to cover it up with carpet while being without the crevice.

Top

Thread Information

There is currently 1 user viewing this thread. (0 members and 1 guest)