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Ask me anything about HVAC heating air conditioning air quality control

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Newbie
Dec 23, 2012
4 posts
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I called Carrier USA (yes, this is how I spend the day after Christmas :) and they confirmed that I would need the control to make the furnace ‘modulate’. The 1st CSR could not answer to my question so I was transferred to a senior CSR who in fact read from the product data that I also had.
However, now after talking to Carrier I know for sure the Infinity control is a thermostat. I had thought before it was something you install on the furnace itself not something that replaces the thermostat (programmable or not) that you put it up the wall.
My idea was to just install the furnace without this control and later on add the control as now I know that the ‘M’ in 59MN7A stands for ‘Can Modulate’ :) not ‘Modulate’ but the CSR told me to put it this at the beginning as to make sure everything works ok.

I liked the guy who proposed Carrier and I would have gone with his company, especially after he told me that most of his clients go for this furnace. However, I am sure that they have no idea that their furnace is not really modulating as they do not have the controller. And I wish I was like them. The less you know the happier you are :) .
Now I don’t know to believe about the contractor I was very much inclined to go with.

1. Either he did not know – even if he should – that the 59MN7A… is not modulating without the control so unknowingly he tried to sell me functionality that couldn’t be achieved. I would kind of ‘accept’ it and let it go if this was the case.

2. This was a marketing ploy to buy a more expensive one as in he (i.e. me) would not mind paying $ more than the quoted 2 stage Carrier 59TNA6A for the perceived extra efficiency but I would lose him as a customer if I asked much more money (the controller is around $600 that would be added to the "modulating" furnace). And in this case I would not want to work with them. Tell me frankly all the options and let me choose but don’t play ‘tricks’ on me.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Dec 24, 2005
2018 posts
2635 upvotes
I have to agree with newlyborn that I got ripped off. The same motor is available online for $172 and they charged me $295 for the motor plus labor. To put things into perspective, they are 5 minutes away from my house, they had the motor in stock, and the technician didn't "clean the squirl cage, reference the original speed... find the closest winding on the new motor". All he did was remove the cage/blower assembly, detach the old motor from the blower wheel (which I had already cleaned), attached the new motor to the blower wheel, and wired it to the control board for high and medium high speeds (because apparently that's all my thermostat supports).

36 hours after the technician installed the motor, my furnace tripped the breaker and the blower motor stopped working. Naturally I called the company back in an emergency because the house was quickly getting cold again. Another technician came and told me the fan relay on my RAM-3MC5 control board is blown. Definitely seems to me like the technician who installed the motor mis-wired something that caused an arc which as a result caused the fan relay to blow. The back of my control board is burnt and this technician completely denied that the motor installation had anything to do with it. He says it's a coincidence and that my furnace is 17 years old and this was expected to happen. They want to charge me $595 for a new control board plus labor, so I'm looking at nearly $800-1000 for a new control board. I told him to f- off and he charged me $200 for the emergency visit. Ripped me off again.

Now I can either get a replacement control board for around $250-300 and replace it myself or get a new furnace. I've already spent $564 on the blower motor and $200 for the emergency technician visit... FML

Where can I get a Carrier for $2500? If so, I'd love to go that route. Please help!

newlyborn wrote:
Dec 24th, 2012 5:05 pm
Hmm ..Somebody decided to have a Merry Christmas indeed ..
Reasonable amount would have in 300 range . It was not worth of changing motor for 500 + on your OLD and OBSOLETE Mid eff. Lennox . The model that you have mentioned below had most issues and Lennox discontinued it pretty quickly .
Next time do yourself a favor and try to switch to a newer furnace ( Payne OEM Carrier should cost you around 2500 all inclusive )
bririp wrote:
Dec 24th, 2012 5:25 pm
Wow....$300? You must be working out of your parents basement (nothing personal!!)

With the cost of the motor, capicitor, gas and maintenance of the vehicle to go and get the motor, diagnose the problem, change the motor, clean the squirl cage, reference the original speed of the original motor and find the closest winding on the new motor to match the different settings, write the bill, pay the insurance, hydro, gas.....$300?

Why don't you introduce yourself newlyborn...who are you? where are you from? who do you work for?

There is nothing worse on this thread than masked avengers that come out and discredit the industry and the technicians that work in it by throwing out random numbers. You have no idea what condition the furnace was in, how far from a distributor the home was and so on. There are a lot of variables here.

If the customer was charged $900 for a OEM 1/3 HP motor, sure that is most likely outrageous, $564 including tax is not unreasonable. I just spent my whole weekend working. And YES we do charge an after hours/weekend rate. We all have families and other things that we would like to be doing on a sunday evening. We spend most of our holidays taking care of our customers... it is part of the job, and I don't mind doing it, but it deserves to be paid a proper, fair rate for.

The bottom line is...If clients want reliable workers around to service you when you need it, random people on the internet have to stop telling everyone that they are getting ripped off and paying too much for service and that they should do it themselves. It takes a lot of costs to keep a well stocked, well trained group of technicians going, insured, licensed and so on.

There is a reason that we go to school and that distributors don't sell to home owners

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37620783/ns ... NjWFW-x-zQ

IT IS NOT SAFE!!!!

Merry Christmas everyone. We will be open all holiday long to save you from having a miserable time! Be Safe. Don't Drink and Drive. And have a glass of Eggnog for all of the technicians that are working!
Nothing to see here folks...
Deal Addict
Jun 16, 2009
1290 posts
180 upvotes
I am really sorry to hear your situation . I would not be comparing prices online with the prices for the product that has been delivered at home . After all parts are stocked in truck and some parts are never even used . Parts do come at a premium price . ( Now its a totally different story how to set a reasonable premium )
Do you by any chance have old motor to verify HP and compare it with new one ?
Please do your research in local classifieds , call around and am sure that there should be someone willing to install the furnace in the price range I have mentioned earlier .
For no reason get your furnace repaired and under no circumstances try to repair it by yourself EVER no matter how handy and knowledgeable you are ( as evident from your post ) .But yes it si good to have a clear idea of what is happening as it becomes little difficult to fool the educated person .


loonieryan wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 2:28 am
I have to agree with newlyborn that I got ripped off. The same motor is available online for $172 and they charged me $295 for the motor plus labor. To put things into perspective, they are 5 minutes away from my house, they had the motor in stock, and the technician didn't "clean the squirl cage, reference the original speed... find the closest winding on the new motor". All he did was remove the cage/blower assembly, detach the old motor from the blower wheel (which I had already cleaned), attached the new motor to the blower wheel, and wired it to the control board for high and medium high speeds (because apparently that's all my thermostat supports).

36 hours after the technician installed the motor, my furnace tripped the breaker and the blower motor stopped working. Naturally I called the company back in an emergency because the house was quickly getting cold again. Another technician came and told me the fan relay on my RAM-3MC5 control board is blown. Definitely seems to me like the technician who installed the motor mis-wired something that caused an arc which as a result caused the fan relay to blow. The back of my control board is burnt and this technician completely denied that the motor installation had anything to do with it. He says it's a coincidence and that my furnace is 17 years old and this was expected to happen. They want to charge me $595 for a new control board plus labor, so I'm looking at nearly $800-1000 for a new control board. I told him to f- off and he charged me $200 for the emergency visit. Ripped me off again.

Now I can either get a replacement control board for around $250-300 and replace it myself or get a new furnace. I've already spent $564 on the blower motor and $200 for the emergency technician visit... FML

Where can I get a Carrier for $2500? If so, I'd love to go that route. Please help!
Jr. Member
Feb 20, 2012
176 posts
8 upvotes
NORTH YORK
Hi,

I have a 10yr old house, and the system is probably the same age,
The house cant seem to heat it self, I set it to 24-25 and it's, what is the best way to identify what is the problem? is it the windows? the roof? the furnace? all of them? will an HVAC expert will be able to identify the problem ?

Thank you
[OP]
Deal Addict
Dec 27, 2007
1058 posts
107 upvotes
Markham
newlyborn wrote:
Dec 26th, 2012 9:47 am
DO you mind sharing the reason of choosing modulating furnace ? Do you think it will make big difference from regular furnace which is 92 % efficient and less prone to breakdowns ?

A modulating furnace increases the comfort level in the home. It allows the furnace to run a proper length of time in order to produce a home with less temperature variations.

It is also rare to find a 92% efficient furnace with a ECM motor. There are substantial electrical savings with the use of a ECM motor over a base PSC motor. The ECM motors/controls also allow for better air flow as it will ramp up depending on the static pressure in the system.
Providing Customers with the highest quality Home Comfort Products, and service! http://www.homestars.com/companies/2781 ... ly-med-air
Deal Addict
User avatar
Dec 24, 2005
2018 posts
2635 upvotes
loonieryan wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 2:28 am
I have to agree with newlyborn that I got ripped off. The same motor is available online for $172 and they charged me $295 for the motor plus labor. To put things into perspective, they are 5 minutes away from my house, they had the motor in stock, and the technician didn't "clean the squirl cage, reference the original speed... find the closest winding on the new motor". All he did was remove the cage/blower assembly, detach the old motor from the blower wheel (which I had already cleaned), attached the new motor to the blower wheel, and wired it to the control board for high and medium high speeds (because apparently that's all my thermostat supports).

36 hours after the technician installed the motor, my furnace tripped the breaker and the blower motor stopped working. Naturally I called the company back in an emergency because the house was quickly getting cold again. Another technician came and told me the fan relay on my RAM-3MC5 control board is blown. Definitely seems to me like the technician who installed the motor mis-wired something that caused an arc which as a result caused the fan relay to blow. The back of my control board is burnt and this technician completely denied that the motor installation had anything to do with it. He says it's a coincidence and that my furnace is 17 years old and this was expected to happen. They want to charge me $595 for a new control board plus labor, so I'm looking at nearly $800-1000 for a new control board. I told him to f- off and he charged me $200 for the emergency visit. Ripped me off again.

Now I can either get a replacement control board for around $250-300 and replace it myself or get a new furnace. I've already spent $564 on the blower motor and $200 for the emergency technician visit... FML

Where can I get a Carrier for $2500? If so, I'd love to go that route. Please help!
newlyborn wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 8:38 am
I am really sorry to hear your situation . I would not be comparing prices online with the prices for the product that has been delivered at home . After all parts are stocked in truck and some parts are never even used . Parts do come at a premium price . ( Now its a totally different story how to set a reasonable premium )
Do you by any chance have old motor to verify HP and compare it with new one ?
Please do your research in local classifieds , call around and am sure that there should be someone willing to install the furnace in the price range I have mentioned earlier .
For no reason get your furnace repaired and under no circumstances try to repair it by yourself EVER no matter how handy and knowledgeable you are ( as evident from your post ) .But yes it si good to have a clear idea of what is happening as it becomes little difficult to fool the educated person .
I think I'm looking at $4-5k for a new furnace in Montreal. Don't think I can spend that right now so I will most likely order the 19W94 control board upgrade kit online for around $220 plus shipping. I've already just spent $764 in parts and labor and emergency tech visit in the last 3 days which will be money flushed down the toilet if I just end up replacing the entire furnace. If I can replace the control board myself and keep this thing running for a couple more years then at least I will get my money's worth for all the recent expenses on this furnace.

The online retailer says I'll get 12 months warranty on the control board even if I install it myself plus they'll provide free tech support over the phone if I have any questions.
Nothing to see here folks...
[OP]
Deal Addict
Dec 27, 2007
1058 posts
107 upvotes
Markham
NCDkitchens wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 10:40 am
Hi,

I have a 10yr old house, and the system is probably the same age,
The house cant seem to heat it self, I set it to 24-25 and it's, what is the best way to identify what is the problem? is it the windows? the roof? the furnace? all of them? will an HVAC expert will be able to identify the problem ?

Thank you
Furances are not designed to keep your home that hot on design temperature days. On colder days, your furnace is designed to keep a 70 degree F temperature point. To reach 78 degrees you would have a substantially over sized furnace.
Providing Customers with the highest quality Home Comfort Products, and service! http://www.homestars.com/companies/2781 ... ly-med-air
Deal Addict
User avatar
Dec 24, 2005
2018 posts
2635 upvotes
loonieryan wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 11:09 am
I think I'm looking at $4-5k for a new furnace in Montreal. Don't think I can spend that right now so I will most likely order the 19W94 control board upgrade kit online for around $220 plus shipping. I've already just spent $764 in parts and labor and emergency tech visit in the last 3 days which will be money flushed down the toilet if I just end up replacing the entire furnace. If I can replace the control board myself and keep this thing running for a couple more years then at least I will get my money's worth for all the recent expenses on this furnace.

The online retailer says I'll get 12 months warranty on the control board even if I install it myself plus they'll provide free tech support over the phone if I have any questions.
I have a 16 month old baby and space heaters aren't cutting it. As a temporary work-around, I've connected the fan's high speed lead directly to the 120v line to keep the fan running. I turned on the heat using the thermostat so the house is back up to a comfortable temperature. How long can I safely keep the fan running constantly like this? Planning to get the replacement control board on Saturday and hopefully install it the same day myself, so this temporary work-around with the fan would be for 48-72 hours.
Nothing to see here folks...
Jr. Member
Feb 20, 2012
176 posts
8 upvotes
NORTH YORK
bririp wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 11:29 am
Furances are not designed to keep your home that hot on design temperature days. On colder days, your furnace is designed to keep a 70 degree F temperature point. To reach 78 degrees you would have a substantially over sized furnace.
hmmm ok...that doesnt seem to answer any of my questions but ok I guess..
Member
Dec 27, 2007
454 posts
40 upvotes
Aurora
NCDkitchens wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 1:18 pm
hmmm ok...that doesnt seem to answer any of my questions but ok I guess..

Looking around your house with an infrared camera may help you find where you are losing some of your heat
Deal Addict
Jun 16, 2009
1290 posts
180 upvotes
Even though I am unable to understand clearly your query , I will still try to help you sort out the issue .
Does your Tstat reaches the SET temp ? If so than I would assume that Heating is working fine .. If not than may be its the defective tstat that is cutting off the furnace before it should . Another case can be that your furnace is short cycling - possible cause is clogged drain , too high of gas pressure , defective high limit .
If everything above is in place than you know for sure that its not your furnace .
How to check if you have massive air leak from doors or window - light a match box and bring it closer to door / windows when its windy . If the flame flickers too much it's a indication that you have leak and should be taken care of . Big leaks can also lead furnace running all day long .


NCDkitchens wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 10:40 am
Hi,

I have a 10yr old house, and the system is probably the same age,
The house cant seem to heat it self, I set it to 24-25 and it's, what is the best way to identify what is the problem? is it the windows? the roof? the furnace? all of them? will an HVAC expert will be able to identify the problem ?

Thank you
[OP]
Deal Addict
Dec 27, 2007
1058 posts
107 upvotes
Markham
NCDkitchens wrote:
Dec 27th, 2012 1:18 pm
hmmm ok...that doesnt seem to answer any of my questions but ok I guess..
I was suggesting that you may be asking too much out of your furnace.

Similar to saying my ford fiesta wont reach 250 km/h.

Is your furnace reaching 20-21 degrees?
Providing Customers with the highest quality Home Comfort Products, and service! http://www.homestars.com/companies/2781 ... ly-med-air
Jr. Member
Feb 20, 2012
176 posts
8 upvotes
NORTH YORK
Hi,

Sorry I was not clear, When it's cold outside, My house temperature drops to 19 degrees, it fails to reach anything higher UNLESS the outside temperature goes up, I am not sure that what I have installed IS a furnace lol it's just a little aluminum box with some pipes, it looks nothing like the images I get on google when typing in "furnace" lol, I will post a picture when I get home...
I'm a first time home owner so I have 0 clue when it comes to the systems and how to check stats and what not...I guess I am asking If an HVAC expert will be able to tell what the problem is...So far they are all asking 99$ for an estimate which I am not too happy to pay for, If it is indeed the furnace I will be looking to replace it and all the pipes.
Member
Aug 13, 2011
350 posts
47 upvotes
Scarborough southwes…
Got me a Lennox EL296V 45000 btu furnace.
Picked up a Honeywell Visionpro 8000 from a friend who just go an ecobee.
Called up guys who did my install, they won't install since I didn't buy from them. Explained I got it free but no dice. Figure I can do this myself. The thermostat wiring part is easy.
Looking at my schematic for the furnace it says to cut a wire if my thermostat can dehumidify. The Honeywell says it has a dehumidification option which will cool the house an extra 1.2C below setpoint.
If you are familiar with the Lennox, do I cut this wire or no?
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