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Locked: Auditor General says Presto smart card cost has ballooned to $700 million

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  • Dec 13th, 2012 9:08 pm
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Deal Expert
Mar 25, 2005
21392 posts
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vero95 wrote: could you back it up with some facts?
The AG report is publicly available. I don't see what the problem is. In any case,

When the Presto fare card was initially developed, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), which has over 80% of the GTHA’s transit ridership, had not agreed to imple- ment Presto on its system. Along with the city of Ottawa, the TTC has now condition- ally approved Presto’s adoption subject to satisfactory resolution of some key issues. However, to meet the requirements of Ottawa and Toronto, Presto Next Genera- tion (PNG) is currently being developed at an anticipated cost of $498 million. In total, more than $700 million could be paid to the contractor for developing the original Presto system and PNG. We acknowledge that Presto is intended to be the primary fare collection system on GO Transit and municipal transit agencies in the GTHA and therefore must be flexible enough to meet the needs of agencies and to adjust to new technologies as they become available; however, it will be among the more expen- sive fare-card systems in the world.

You can also pull Recommendation 3
RECOMMENDATION 3
Metrolinx should ensure that it formally consid- ers the risks of continuing with the development of Presto Next Generation (PNG), given that the specific business requirements of the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) for using PNG on its transit system and the costs for which the TTC would be responsible have not yet been formally agreed to.
METROLINX RESPONSE
Metrolinx has been working with the TTC since 2009 to define the business requirements of Presto. The TTC approved the implementation of Presto on November 23, 2011, and authorized the execution of all necessary agreements. This was reaffirmed on May 1, 2012, and we antici- pate completing a master agreement with the TTC in 2012. The discussions regarding the mas- ter agreement have included both the operating requirements and financial arrangements; thus, these discussions have informed the develop- ment of Presto Next Generation. As well, Presto has been installed at 14 of the TTC’s highest- volume subway stations and it is used daily by more than 8,000 riders. It should be also noted that the TTC has estimated that when Presto is fully operational, costs for fare collection could be reduced by up to $10 million annually from current levels.


Neither the TTC (other than its pilot test stations) or Ottawa (Next Gen delayed to Feb 1) have implement the new platform. The existing manifestation of Preso is of its "base" form.
Deal Addict
Dec 9, 2010
3750 posts
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Barrie
Toukolou wrote: Hahahahaha! $700mil for a glorified pay as you go card?

Gee, how hard is it to place card readers exactly where we deposit tokens/swipe metropasses where value is deducted from your card and set up a website to add dollars to your card?

They should consult Tim Hortons to find out how they do it. What a joke.
Out of curiosity do you have any cue how much a debit machine costs or how Tim Hortons goes about getting one or are you simply assuming that it was dirt cheap for them to set up their own personal machines?
We don't know, so it's possible. And it's possible, so it's probably probable.
Deal Expert
Mar 25, 2005
21392 posts
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vero95 wrote: something must have if you complained to mods and asked them to delete my posts :facepalm:
do you have any proof that $700 million went into the future development and upgrades? or was it your trolling?

Edit: btw, you were only understood by another troll. this card is as simple as you can get. you tap and go. the technology has been there for over 10 years. what kind of "improvements" cost $450 million if it's a basic version of the card? :facepalm:
do you understand that people were saying that the costs trippled because what should have cost $250million ended up costing $700million?
Perhaps you're a visual learner? I pulled an exhibit directly from the AGO report
[IMG]http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9707/pngdpo.png[/IMG]

Edit: since this exhibit answers multiple questions, I though I would list them below for you.
vero95 wrote: do you have any evidence that "next generation" means whatever you are saying we'll get in the future and not whatever we already have?
because you are trolling a lot on this forum and that looks like another troll post from you
vero95 wrote: do you have any evidence the upgrades are worth $450 million if the initial cost was only $250 million?
vero95 wrote: BornRuff has no clue what happened and neither do you. he and you are misleading the public as if the costs were justified and cover future development
BornRuff is a known troll. he trolls on many subjects on this forum and keeps many questions unanswered. his specialty is making statements without being able to deliver any proof for them ;)
vero95 wrote: my point is clear: you did not provide any proof that $700 million went toward the future expansion of the card
to make things even more idiotic for you you provided as a proof a quote that contradicts your claim :facepalm: you ridiculed yourself ;)
vero95 wrote: dude, every your post is dumber than the previous one
PNG was already rolled out. that $700 million is the basic card we are "enjoying" right now.
if you have some proof that it's not the case, please kindly provide it :facepalm:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presto_card#Stage_One
Side Note: Wiki? Really?
vero95 wrote: proof of what? :facepalm: that the basic card we got cost $700million?
you can call it 10th generation and it will not change the fact that it's a basic card that cost $700 million :facepalm:
do you understand how dumb your argument is?
vero95 wrote: could you back it up with some facts?
Deal Expert
May 17, 2008
15134 posts
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vero95 wrote: not in Canada
please prove the economy was as bad during Dalton's tenure as during Mike's
The early 90's recession is said to have ended in 1995, so they never really had much of a recession to deal with. The late 90's were a period of great economic growth in Canada. The main hiccup that they had to deal with was the dot com bubble bursting.

Canada did relatively well compared to the rest of the world in the recent recession, but within Canada Ontario was one of the worst hit since we have so much manufacturing. Much of the growth in Canada has been focused out west around the oil sands.
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Nov 21, 2009
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Kasakato wrote: Perhaps you're a visual learner? I pulled an exhibit directly from the AGO report
[IMG]http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9707/pngdpo.png[/IMG]

Edit: since this exhibit answers multiple questions, I though I would list them below for you.
that's not what the report is saying and does not confirm your claim
There is no operating system with the Presto Next Gen currently. The present implementation in the GTAH is the basic platform.
I guess you neither can comprehend the report nor are a visual learner so let me explain the meaning of Fig 5 for you. the maintenance costs of presto base were $101.5million. the operation of presto base ended in the spring of 2012. since then PNG has been operational and it will cost $152 million to operate it till 2016
if you have more questions or problems with understanding the report, do not hesitate to ask ;)
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Nov 21, 2009
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BornRuff wrote: The early 90's recession is said to have ended in 1995, so they never really had much of a recession to deal with. The late 90's were a period of great economic growth in Canada. The main hiccup that they had to deal with was the dot com bubble bursting.

Canada did relatively well compared to the rest of the world in the recent recession, but within Canada Ontario was one of the worst hit since we have so much manufacturing. Much of the growth in Canada has been focused out west around the oil sands.
I stopped reading after the bolded part. please provide the proof that a. they had a way to know that the boom was coming and b. the boom happened right away
they implemented cuts when they got to power in 1995 so the answers to my questions are crucial
Deal Expert
Mar 25, 2005
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vero95 wrote: that's not what the report is saying and does not confirm your claim


I guess you neither can comprehend the report nor are a visual learner so let me explain the meaning of Fig 5 for you. the maintenance costs of presto base were $101.5million. the operation of presto base ended in the spring of 2012. since then PNG has been operational and it will cost $152 million to operate it till 2016
if you have more questions or problems with understanding the report, do not hesitate to ask ;)
Where did "Spring of 2012" come from? A request for funding and the actual implementation are completely different things; this is like saying Presto was implemented in 2006 because it was funded then. You seems to have missed my previous post; it clearly states Next Gen is under development and will start with Ottawa and the TTC.
Deal Expert
Mar 25, 2005
21392 posts
2233 upvotes
vero95 wrote: that's not what the report is saying and does not confirm your claim


I guess you neither can comprehend the report nor are a visual learner so let me explain the meaning of Fig 5 for you. the maintenance costs of presto base were $101.5million. the operation of presto base ended in the spring of 2012. since then PNG has been operational and it will cost $152 million to operate it till 2016
if you have more questions or problems with understanding the report, do not hesitate to ask ;)
Since you seem to like pictures, read the report, in a screenshot!
[IMG]http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7052/prestoo.png[/IMG]
Deal Expert
May 17, 2008
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vero95 wrote: I stopped reading after the bolded part. please provide the proof that a. they had a way to know that the boom was coming and b. the boom happened right away
they implemented cuts when they got to power in 1995 so the answers to my questions are crucial
You appear to be trying to make a point in the most painfully roundabout way. Just say what you want to say.
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Nov 21, 2009
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Kasakato wrote: Where did "Spring of 2012" come from? A request for funding and the actual implementation are completely different things; this is like saying Presto was implemented in 2006 because it was funded then. You seems to have missed my previous post; it clearly states Next Gen is under development and will start with Ottawa and the TTC.
from Fig 5. but I guess you are not a visual learner
presto base is gone. we are operating PNG right now. it does not mean that there will not be upgrades
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Kasakato wrote: Since you seem to like pictures, read the report, in a screenshot!
[IMG]http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7052/prestoo.png[/IMG]
you confuse rolling out a version with implementing it at a specific site that has additional requirements
you need to make more effort and try to understand what you post


Feb 2012
A major new market for Presto will arrive in June 2012 with the rollout in Ottawa with the “Presto Next Generation” (or “PNG”) card. PNG will become available in the GTHA in late fall 2012.

Concurrent with the rollout of PNG, the Presto website will be revised with added functionality and an improved layout, according to the report.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=6019
and the original report from Feb 2012
1. Complete Ottawa Rollout
to launch across OC Transpo in early 2012, including buses and O-train stations using PRESTO Next Generation (PNG)
• TTC agreement to be completed
2. TTC Agreement Finalization
g p
• PNG, featuring enhanced customer options and the Open Payment pilot to be
introduced into the GTHA in 2012
3. GTHA PRESTO Next Generation Introduction
• PRESTO continues to improve the customer experience (including IVR refresh,
software enhancements, introduction of a mobile app and a PRESTO website
refresh 4. Continued Service Enhancement
)
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/pr ... ode%5D.pdf
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Nov 21, 2009
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BornRuff wrote: You appear to be trying to make a point in the most painfully roundabout way. Just say what you want to say.
I already said. when Mike got to power in 95 and implemented cuts, we were still in the recession. you painted it out as it was in the middle of a boom
Dalton was at power during the boom
Deal Expert
Mar 25, 2005
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vero95 wrote: you confuse rolling out a version with implementing it at a specific site that has additional requirements
you need to make more effort and try to understand what you post
What are you talking about? "PNG was initially expected to be rolled out in Ottawa...postponed to February 2013." Note that Feb 13 is in the future - PNG has not been implemented.
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