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Carbon taxes will fuel Canadian populism

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  • Jun 26th, 2017 2:07 am
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Apr 15, 2011
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 9:52 am
You have to think deeper about the economic and social impact a carbon tax has on a population. So, I'm not sure if you have an economics background but think about a carbon tax as sort of a forced inflation. So, people who consume more are already taxed more, but you also hurt lower income earners because everything rises in price. There are increased transportation costs, and guess what, goods get transported. You also hurt manufacturers because consumers look for cheaper substitutes than buying locally and considering how many free trade deals we have, that means purchasing down south or overseas. In the day of the internet, it's easier now than ever, which is why I don't think the liberals thoroughly thought this through. So, while the libbies have stated it will be a revenue neutral tax, it really just forces people to spend more while pretending they are doing good. That's really all it takes to please that segment (ie. liberals). You are better off taking all your foreign aid money, that usually just ends up being siphoned to the rich in the countries you are pledging it to, and using that to promote cleaner tech versus coming up with a hurtful carbon tax.
wrong--poorer and middle income brackets get subsidies to offset the carbon tax. Either in the form of a cheque or a rebate in the mail. These people usually end up getting MORE back than they put in, so trust me they won't be complaining. How much will costs rise because of a $0.05/L carbon tax, even a $0.10 or $0.20, hell even a $0.50/L? Doubt it will be much...probably rounding errors..couple hundred extra $$ for truck drivers per month, which gets absorbed by the comodities through a price rise of $0.0001 cents? What exactly do we manufacture in Canada anymore? The best economists in the world support the carbon tax..and not only for the environmental reasons (which should be the most important), but for the economical reasons. Its a redistribution scheme at its core.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/20 ... party.html
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Syne wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 2:46 am
Sorry a bit unrelated but when did the term 'populism' start meaning, 'libertarianism'? Prior to Donald Trump, I used the term 'populism' to describe a system that frees people from tyranny. Whether you agree with it or not, 'Occupy Wall Street' was a populist movement because it sought to benefit a greater amount of people, or populace. Now it's getting thrown around as if populism is some right wing concept that assumes government = tyranny. It's not. Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, these can all be populist in their pure forms. Can we start using the word properly again please?
I agree, but peoe will repeat it. They'll complain about the elites shoving these kind of taxes down pure throats but applaud massive tax cuts for corporations and the wealthiest amonsgt us.

I guess the 1% aren't "elites"
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blaznazn22 wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 11:22 am
wrong--poorer and middle income brackets get subsidies to offset the carbon tax. Either in the form of a cheque or a rebate in the mail. These people usually end up getting MORE back than they put in, so trust me they won't be complaining. How much will costs rise because of a $0.05/L carbon tax, even a $0.10 or $0.20, hell even a $0.50/L? Doubt it will be much...probably rounding errors..couple hundred extra $$ for truck drivers per month, which gets absorbed by the comodities through a price rise of $0.0001 cents? What exactly do we manufacture in Canada anymore? The best economists in the world support the carbon tax..and not only for the environmental reasons (which should be the most important), but for the economical reasons. Its a redistribution scheme at its core.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/20 ... party.html
Oh boy. lol wealth redistribution ...Let's discuss real facts

Per http://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/01 ... s-families
"A single adult earning up to $47,500 per year will receive a rebate of $200, and a couple making a maximum combined $95,000 per year will get $300. Parents that qualify will also get up to $30 per child, to a maximum of four. Rebates will rise in 2018, in tandem with the carbon levy, to $300 for singles, $450 for couples and $45 per child. Full rebates will go to an estimated 60 per cent of Albertans. Partial rebates go to another six per cent. The other third — those who make more than $51,250 a year — receive no rebate at all."

It's also estimated the carbon tax will account for an increase of about $1100 for the average household, that's according to a rough estimate by Macleans. But you still don't understand how it will hurt manufacturers and why it's a failed concept when you have countries like China basically not participating. If you believe in socialism so much, you should move to Venezuela, I heard it's working out really great for them.
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 11:39 am
Oh boy. lol wealth redistribution ...Let's discuss real facts

Per http://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/01 ... s-families
"A single adult earning up to $47,500 per year will receive a rebate of $200, and a couple making a maximum combined $95,000 per year will get $300. Parents that qualify will also get up to $30 per child, to a maximum of four. Rebates will rise in 2018, in tandem with the carbon levy, to $300 for singles, $450 for couples and $45 per child. Full rebates will go to an estimated 60 per cent of Albertans. Partial rebates go to another six per cent. The other third — those who make more than $51,250 a year — receive no rebate at all."

It's also estimated the carbon tax will account for an increase of about $1100 for the average household, that's according to a rough estimate by Macleans. But you still don't understand how it will hurt manufacturers and why it's a failed concept when you have countries like China basically not participating. If you believe in socialism so much, you should move to Venezuela, I heard it's working out really great for them.
lmao. You just got exposed for being a bum. I read your damn article and it says the average price for families is expected to be around $443...I love how you tripled that amount to get your $1100. So basically, it is a redistribution scheme as I said...those who are in the lower income brackets will get more out of it. I'm guessing your income bracket is above the limit...well I guess that sucks for you buddy. If you're from montreal, its already a socialist paradise. Fixed house prices, very low insurance rates, etc etc.
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blaznazn22 wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 11:46 am
lmao. You just got exposed for being a bum. I read your damn article and it says the average price for families is expected to be around $443...I love how you tripled that amount to get your $1100. So basically, it is a redistribution scheme as I said...those who are in the lower income brackets will get more out of it. I'm guessing your income bracket is above the limit...well I guess that sucks for you buddy.
By 2022, it will cost the average household on the low estimate $1100, when the target is set at $50/t. You can give all the credits/rebates you want, you are still hurting industry/manufacturers especially ones that need to export. Do you understand the companies that close employ people, does that concept resonate at all with you? It failed in Australia, it lasted 2 years. Provinces like BC/Alberta will be hit harder because they don't have a cap and trade, but will be taxed more than provinces like QC/Ontario who can avoid the minimums. It basically penalizes the western provinces. You are going to have some major conflict there when it hits $50/t because those western provinces will not like that. I run a small business, and have a family. So, I work hard enough that I don't need to pay for other people not pulling their weight. When you reach adulthood one day and realize how the economy works then maybe we can discuss things further. Yes, I live in montreal and there's a reason why Quebecers move out of here and business also; taxes.
Last edited by mtlboy on Mar 19th, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:07 pm
By 2022, it will cost the average household on the low estimate $1100, when the target is set at $50/t. You can give all the credits/rebates you want, you are still hurting industry/manufacturers especially ones that need to export. Do you understand the companies that close employ people, does that concept resonate at all with you? It failed in Australia, it lasted 2 years. Provinces like BC/Alberta will be hit harder because they don't have a cap and trade, but will be taxed more than provinces like QC/Ontario who can avoid the minimums. It basically penalizes the western provinces. You are going to have some major conflict there when it hits $50/t because those western provinces will not like that. I'm really insulted by being called a bum by someone who lives in a toronto suburb with their parents. I run a small business, and have a family. So, I work hard enough that I don't need to pay for other people not pulling their weight. When you reach adulthood one day and realize how the economy works then maybe we can discuss things further.
Boom! +1
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Conquistador wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:10 pm
Boom! +1
Lol I edited it a bit, I didn't want to sound too condescending. It's also frustrating because some people live in a bubble and don't understand domestic and foreign trade. The carbon tax national mins shouldn't have been implemented until you see what the US and China are doing. No one is against lowering emissions, but there's a balance between doing the right thing and making sure you're on the same page as the competition.
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:07 pm
By 2022, it will cost the average household on the low estimate $1100, when the target is set at $50/t. You can give all the credits/rebates you want, you are still hurting industry/manufacturers especially ones that need to export. Do you understand the companies that close employ people, does that concept resonate at all with you? It failed in Australia, it lasted 2 years. Provinces like BC/Alberta will be hit harder because they don't have a cap and trade, but will be taxed more than provinces like QC/Ontario who can avoid the minimums. It basically penalizes the western provinces. You are going to have some major conflict there when it hits $50/t because those western provinces will not like that. I run a small business, and have a family. So, I work hard enough that I don't need to pay for other people not pulling their weight. When you reach adulthood one day and realize how the economy works then maybe we can discuss things further. Yes, I live in montreal and there's a reason why Quebecers move out of here and business also; taxes.
Do you know how many people from ontario would flood quebec/montreal if they could speak french and be employable? It would be on the scale of millions. Try buying a home in Ontario or Toronto...the average price in the suburbs has hit $1.5 million for a beat up shack in the middle of no where. Our electricity prices are going through the roof because of stupid decisions by politicians. We pay more in one month for car insurance than you pay in an year. Our day care prices are on average $2000/month, whereas you in montreal pay $200/month. You guys in quebec are living the socialist paradise already...us in Ontario, not so much.

If it will cost $1100 for the average house hold in 2022--5 years from now, then the middle class and poor will get more than that in rebates and subsidies. What do the poor and middle class do with those rebates? They spend it DIRECTLY back into the economy. Thats how things work. If it costs more money to manufacturers, they will decide to lower costs by going to cheaper forms of electricity such as renewables and nuclear power or they will raise prices. Truck drivers will drive more efficient trucks. If you are a small business owner and the carbon tax is affecting you, then you will naturally raise your prices to compensate. Thats how a business works. You should be happy, this redistribution means that lower income people will be getting more $$ back and spending it in the economy which will undoubtedly bring up your bottom line. Trust me, the rich don't shop at small businesses, they buy at the Eatons Centre.
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:20 pm
Lol I edited it a bit, I didn't want to sound too condescending. It's also frustrating because some people live in a bubble and don't understand domestic and foreign trade. The carbon tax national mins shouldn't have been implemented until you see what the US and China are doing. No one is against lowering emissions, but there's a balance between doing the right thing and making sure you're on the same page as the competition.
China is moving to a carbon tax model this year..they need to because their people are choking on coal polluted air. Try talking to any new chinese immigrant and ask them what they like about Canada...they will tell you the clean air. The US doesn't have a carbon tax model, but some states do. California does for example, and its the largest economy in the US. I believe that NY and a bunch of other liberal states were also thinking about moving to carbon cap and trade, but that was before trump got elected. Not sure now.
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Over 2/3rds of candians support carbon tax so it is populism that brought it in

It needs to be higher and luckily it will ramp up higher in future
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blaznazn22 wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:47 pm
China is moving to a carbon tax model this year..they need to because their people are choking on coal polluted air. Try talking to any new chinese immigrant and ask them what they like about Canada...they will tell you the clean air. The US doesn't have a carbon tax model, but some states do. California does for example, and its the largest economy in the US. I believe that NY and a bunch of other liberal states were also thinking about moving to carbon cap and trade, but that was before trump got elected. Not sure now.
California has cap and trade, like Quebec. China has tested it out in certain jurisdictions but I still can't see where they have tabled when they are doing any sort of cap and trade at the national level with a firm date. They also tested it out at $2-5/t and who knows what they will price it at. The Chinese are known for smoke and mirrors, especially when it comes to protecting their exports. They said they can see it at $30/T but that could be so everyone else puts a heavy price on it and allows them to price it lower. Very smart move, force the competition to basically raise their costs and roll out their policies and then the Chinese come in and do everything at 1/4 the tax. You are basically just balancing that out with population growth when they schedule their increases etc. Mexico hasn't even signed on yet either.. You shouldn't really put out a policy until your biggest trading partners (who might I add are MUCH larger than us) have done so.
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:20 pm
Lol I edited it a bit, I didn't want to sound too condescending. It's also frustrating because some people live in a bubble and don't understand domestic and foreign trade. The carbon tax national mins shouldn't have been implemented until you see what the US and China are doing. No one is against lowering emissions, but there's a balance between doing the right thing and making sure you're on the same page as the competition.
Uhhh. This is the right thing?.

China is leading in Solar technology and is investing HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS in renewables.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china ... SKBN14P06P
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... 60-billion
https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/05/chi ... -producer/

You guys are here complaining about not being able to afford carbon taxes and doing mental gymantics how its "wrong" while china is already dominating one part of the green market. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Let me guess what youre next post will be. China is lying? they are a joke?. They are the problem?. Face With Tears Of Joy
Diversity Is Our Strength 😎
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Apr 15, 2011
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mtlboy wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 12:58 pm
California has cap and trade, like Quebec. China has tested it out in certain jurisdictions but I still can't see where they have tabled when they are doing any sort of cap and trade at the national level with a firm date. They also tested it out at $2-5/t and who knows what they will price it at. The Chinese are known for smoke and mirrors, especially when it comes to protecting their exports. They said they can see it at $30/T but that could be so everyone else puts a heavy price on it and allows them to price it lower. Very smart move, force the competition to basically raise their costs and roll out their policies and then the Chinese come in and do everything at 1/4 the tax. You are basically just balancing that out with population growth when they schedule their increases etc. Mexico hasn't even signed on yet either.. You shouldn't really put out a policy until your biggest trading partners (who might I add are MUCH larger than us) have done so.
The chinese have to be honest with the cap and trade system. They need to reduce their emissions because their people are starting to get upset with the pollution, and the health issues its causing.

Interesting article, which says that 1/4 of the US population live in areas with carbon cap and trade or some form of it. I suggest we prioritize doing business with these states so that we have less of a competitive impact.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/c ... tes-107135
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LonesomeDove wrote:
Mar 18th, 2017 8:38 pm
No, we are Canadians. We are used to high taxes. We sometimes complain but in the end nothing happens. We keep re-electing the same people that screw us over.
Agree with this. We're completely accustomed to politicians wasting money and taxing their way out of the hole.

I think the cost of housing could fuel a populist movement, especially among the young. It's all I hear talked about.
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Mar 4, 2010
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dsg512 wrote:
Mar 19th, 2017 4:13 pm
Agree with this. We're completely accustomed to politicians wasting money and taxing their way out of the hole.

I think the cost of housing could fuel a populist movement, especially among the young. It's all I hear talked about.
Yep , it is true
And not only the politicians , when you look at our uncompetitive market , we are really ****.
Government can do whatever they want , most of canadiens live in a bubble .

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