Automotive

Chevy Bolt...383km /charge for $30k plus

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  • Jun 12th, 2017 1:22 pm
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Our Tesla Model S has almost 90000 km on it, less than 3% degradation of range, charges to 415 km (compared to 425 new).
People who fear battery degradation don't own Tesla's.

My Smart ED has 100% of manufacturer claimed range after 25000 km and 3+ years charged nightly to 100%. No issues.
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:10 pm
I am not really convinced between this and regular gas car, economically.
2.5c/km for this. For an average car (say civic/elantra/mazda3), it's only around 8.5c/km (my 2010 mazda 3 is doing an average 8L/100km). You are saving 6c/km. Let's assume a bigger saving 8c/km.
8c/km, $8.00 per 100km, that's $8,000 per 100,000km, roughly 4 years. (how often do the batteries need to be replaced? And how much?)

And 2.5c/km is the ideal number of these electric cars and we are not considering battery degradation over the period of 4 years.

383km is pretty long, but clearly rules out the long trips vs. the convenience of getting gas anywhere.

anything I am missing out?
Battery degradation is irrelevant - the battery doesn't become x% less efficient, it becomes full of x% "junk" such that you can't fill it up or drain it completely as much.
Picture it like a cement mixer. The more loads you put through it, eventually there is a little buildup of drying concrete that sticks to the drum. Over time it builds up more and more and eventually you'll only be able to put in (for example) 3/4 the amount and take out that same 3/4 when mixed. But you didn't put in a full load of material and only take 3/4 out on your latest mix.

And that would only happen after a hell of a long time with a properly managed battery (I.e. not Nissan)

Battery replacements should be considered the same as a transmission replacement on any other vehicle. It costs a few grand, but it shouldn't happen until well into the teens of life.
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alanbrenton wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:13 pm
What do you save by not having an engine and multigear transmission and what about the $14k rebate?
If this car was $30k after the 14k rebate, I am sure we can find a decent one at ~$22k, no?
I think that is a very misleading title.
GM says that, so far, it has had to replace zero Volt battery packs due to what’s been defined as “general capacity degradation.”
It says they have not replaced a battery due to "general capacity degradation". 2 things with that statements:
1. what about replacing battery due to other reasons?
2. replacing 0 battery due to battery degradation, does not necessarily mean battery does not degrade at all. The battery might be degrading slowly, not to a point where replacements are needed.
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SmartElectric wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:24 pm
Our Tesla Model S has almost 90000 km on it, less than 3% degradation of range, charges to 415 km (compared to 425 new).
People who fear battery degradation don't own Tesla's.

My Smart ED has 100% of manufacturer claimed range after 25000 km and 3+ years charged nightly to 100%. No issues.
Tesla, model S is of another league though, isn't it?
just wondering after 90,000km, how much have you had to spend on maintenance? tires? brakes? other charges?
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:31 pm
It says they have not replaced a battery due to "general capacity degradation". 2 things with that statements:
1. what about replacing battery due to other reasons?
2. replacing 0 battery due to battery degradation, does not necessarily mean battery does not degrade at all. The battery might be degrading slowly, not to a point where replacements are needed.
Not one volt user has reported a loss in capacity significant enough to not be random error/fluctuations.
This is quite different than leaf owners, whose battery management was definitely lacking and many reported massive drops by even 3-4 years in.

The only volt batteries I've heard of being replaced were not for capacity, but because of other components that failed that were easier/safer to swap the entire section than do "high voltage surgery". Namely, temperature sensors for the battery management system that are embedded in the middle of the cells.

One guy on the volt forums has used his entire battery charge every single day and over 4yrs/100k miles and still gets the same capacity and range.
Last edited by aqnd on Feb 2nd, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aqnd wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:25 pm
Battery degradation is irrelevant - the battery doesn't become x% less efficient, it becomes full of x% "junk" such that you can't fill it up or drain it completely as much.
Picture it like a cement mixer. The more loads you put through it, eventually there is a little buildup of drying concrete that sticks to the drum. Over time it builds up more and more and eventually you'll only be able to put in (for example) 3/4 the amount and take out that same 3/4 when mixed. But you didn't put in a full load of material and only take 3/4 out on your latest mix.

And that would only happen after a hell of a long time with a properly managed battery (I.e. not Nissan)

Battery replacements should be considered the same as a transmission replacement on any other vehicle. It costs a few grand, but it shouldn't happen until well into the teens of life.
maybe I am still skeptical having not seen enough boltz, its real-life functions and battery life.
I have had my mazda3 2010 for around 7.5 years, and I have not had to replace the transmission. If the battery on boltz lasts 7 years+ with little "degradation" over time, that'd be pretty good.
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:31 pm
If this car was $30k after the 14k rebate, I am sure we can find a decent one at ~$22k, no?



I think that is a very misleading title.

It says they have not replaced a battery due to "general capacity degradation". 2 things with that statements:
1. what about replacing battery due to other reasons?
2. replacing 0 battery due to battery degradation, does not necessarily mean battery does not degrade at all. The battery might be degrading slowly, not to a point where replacements are needed.
What do you call decent, one with no instant torque and engine vibration?

I consider my 02 Civic decent. So you know I have to justify hard purchasing an EV.

No one is convincing you to get an EV btw. :)
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alanbrenton wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:49 pm
What do you call decent, one with no instant torque and engine vibration?

I consider my 02 Civic decent.

No one is convincing you to get an EV. :)
decent as in a "decent" regular gas car. lol. Civic, mazda3, elantra with good-enough packages.

I don't know, I just don't find this Bolt attractive at all, price or look.
Maybe I'll wait for model 3?
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:31 pm
If this car was $30k after the 14k rebate, I am sure we can find a decent one at ~$22k, no?



I think that is a very misleading title.

It says they have not replaced a battery due to "general capacity degradation". 2 things with that statements:
1. what about replacing battery due to other reasons?
2. replacing 0 battery due to battery degradation, does not necessarily mean battery does not degrade at all. The battery might be degrading slowly, not to a point where replacements are needed.
Don't even bother doing the math. The cost of 'gasoline' is already priced into the high MSRP on all electric cars EV's make zero sense not only in overall costs to operate but in environmental impact as well. I saw and sat in a Bolt at the auto show last week, car on display was $50k plus tax, not including $8500 rebate. The car is not bigger than a typical CUV, like a CX-3 or an HR-v which would cost $28k OTR. Don't forget to add $1k for your charger plus install. And zero batter degradation? Looking at some gauge that can be changed by any OTA update to read whatever Tesla wants it to read is also laughable. Oh let's not get talking on depreciation, the Bolt will be selling used for $20k in 2 years time. Is there any wonder why these things can't get any traction even with taxpayers discount of 1/3 of the MSRP?
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:57 pm
decent as in a "decent" regular gas car. lol. Civic, mazda3, elantra with good-enough packages.

I don't know, I just don't find this Bolt attractive at all, price or look.
Maybe I'll wait for model 3?
About the same price at $28k factoring incentive. But if you are comparing to a used one, then the gap will be biggger.

Not digging the looks of the Bolt either and I would like to wait for a few more EVs to come to market before deciding but I did put a deposit on the Model 3 and when I am called to configure, maybe the only other EV available besides the Bolt and Tesla would be the Leaf 2.0 and Korean ones slated for 2018.

My next car will be an EV but that doesn't mean I will get rid of our Accord and RAV4. And I wouldn't be opting for too many expensive options I may only use a few times in a year.

As you can surmise, an EV purchase for my household would still border on practicality and cost of ownership. That is why I would rather go Toyota but its BEV may not come until 2020. The Honda Clarify looks :S
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 9:36 pm
Tesla, model S is of another league though, isn't it?
just wondering after 90,000km, how much have you had to spend on maintenance? tires? brakes? other charges?
Car had 57000 km on it when I bought it via CPO (reconditioned used) from Tesla with a full 4 year warranty and including original 8 year battery + drive train warranty.
Spent $600 for 30000 km maintenance check up just a few months ago. Included top to bottom check/clean of brakes, hoses, key fobs and other normal wear items.
Spent $800 for winter rims and $1200 for winter tires.
Summer tires in great shape (because I only put 15000 km on them), winter similarly good (put 15000 km on them).

My Smart ED has been $3 total in parts, a light bulb for the rear blinker. 25000 km trouble free.

Both cars run/drive like new, which is to say, awesome in every way.
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ottofly wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 10:01 pm
$1k for your charger plus install
$0 in my case. Even though Ontario pays half for the charger install, I didn't use that rebate (yet) as I am waiting for the next generation of smart connected charging systems. I charge both of my EV's on the included charging cords (EVSE) that came with the car.


ottofly wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 10:01 pm
zero batter degradation? Looking at some gauge that can be changed by any OTA update to read whatever Tesla wants it to read is also laughable
Ignorance does not make you right. Read a little:
https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015/01 ... tion-data/

My Smart ED was checked on the Daimler battery diagnostic system after 20000 km and showed ZERO degradation compared to the quoted as-new capacity.
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SmartElectric wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 11:17 pm
Car had 57000 km on it when I bought it via CPO (reconditioned used) from Tesla with a full 4 year warranty and including original 8 year battery + drive train warranty.
Spent $600 for 30000 km maintenance check up just a few months ago. Included top to bottom check/clean of brakes, hoses, key fobs and other normal wear items.
Spent $800 for winter rims and $1200 for winter tires.
Summer tires in great shape (because I only put 15000 km on them), winter similarly good (put 15000 km on them).

My Smart ED has been $3 total in parts, a light bulb for the rear blinker. 25000 km trouble free.

Both cars run/drive like new, which is to say, awesome in every way.
Over at TMC, someone shared the link to the recommended service intervals at it seems the 4th one makes most sense with hybrid battery fluid top up or replacement and a/c inspection. Everything else like tire rotation, filter changes, and key fob battery change seems to require little effort or maybe not since I didn't bother looking how to do them diy.

http://insideevs.com/tesla-increases-pr ... -services/

My friend has not gone for service (because Tesla doesn't require them) but only to have minor issues fixed.
Last edited by alanbrenton on Feb 3rd, 2017 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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alanbrenton wrote:
Feb 2nd, 2017 10:29 pm
About the same price at $28k factoring incentive. But if you are comparing to a used one, then the gap will be biggger.

Not digging the looks of the Bolt either and I would like to wait for a few more EVs to come to market before deciding but I did put a deposit on the Model 3 and when I am called to configure, maybe the only other EV available besides the Bolt and Tesla would be the Leaf 2.0 and Korean ones slated for 2018.

My next car will be an EV but that doesn't mean I will get rid of our Accord and RAV4. And I wouldn't be opting for too many expensive options I may only use a few times in a year.

As you can surmise, an EV purchase for my household would still border on practicality and cost of ownership. That is why I would rather go Toyota but its BEV may not come until 2020. The Honda Clarify looks :S
I think the designs, inside and out, are what they really cheaped out on. I know style is totally subjective but I doubt many would vote in favour of Bolt's design.
Materials don't have to be the luxury kinds, but at least spend a bit for better looking, or layout, or dashboard.

This is why Tesla, especially model S, really nailed it. The car has good batteries and acceleration, a very clean interior with modern technology, and sleek exterior. It does give you the same feelings you are in a Mercedes S, Audi A7-A8, or BMW 7 series, which are of the similar, or higher price range. And you don't have to pay as much for electricity vs. fuel. If I had ~$100k, and I have options between these higher-end cars, Tesla model S would probably be my first choice.

The bolt, on the other hand, is a $30k car (after rebates and incentives) that its only plus side is an electric car. Designs and interior materials give you the feelings of a $10k-$15k car.

Again, I know my view of this car is very subjective. Just my 2c
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konsensei wrote:
Feb 3rd, 2017 8:44 am
I think the designs, inside and out, are what they really cheaped out on. I know style is totally subjective but I doubt many would vote in favour of Bolt's design.
Materials don't have to be the luxury kinds, but at least spend a bit for better looking, or layout, or dashboard.

This is why Tesla, especially model S, really nailed it. The car has good batteries and acceleration, a very clean interior with modern technology, and sleek exterior. It does give you the same feelings you are in a Mercedes S, Audi A7-A8, or BMW 7 series, which are of the similar, or higher price range. And you don't have to pay as much for electricity vs. fuel. If I had ~$100k, and I have options between these higher-end cars, Tesla model S would probably be my first choice.

The bolt, on the other hand, is a $30k car (after rebates and incentives) that its only plus side is an electric car. Designs and interior materials give you the feelings of a $10k-$15k car.

Again, I know my view of this car is very subjective. Just my 2c
Even the Model S falls shy on interior quality and luxury feel vs. Luxury cars, so I read.

I don't even try to caress the soft padded plastic interior parts on the RAV4 (and the dash layout doesn't appeal to me but I wanted a hybrid and so far Toyota's implementation seems best) but I understand they could have made the interior look better on the Bolt.

I am only willing to spend around $50k on an EV after incentives but aim to go lower haha. I don't even dig the exterior looks of the Model S. It isn't bad but I like the M4 or Audi A4 looks better but stay away from those brands because maintenance could be costly down the road.

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