Real Estate

Condo extra fee for occupant

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Deal Fanatic
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Jan 6, 2011
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Maybe OP could propose amendment to add expiry to the $75, say after 3 or 5yr of continuous ownership, such charge could be dropped.

That still destroys slumlords cap rate calc on spreadsheet, meanwhile, lessen the physiological impact of compromised ownership.
Deal Addict
Apr 22, 2014
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, ON
I do not oppose the fee altogether. I understand its purpose and it COULD deter slum landlords, but will not completely solve the problem as they probably still making money by overcrowding their units. You also need to be aware that it is impossible to know how many people actually live in their units. Why? It is because many of them only request for few access fob and the rest they either piggy back people when the door is open, or simply dial in via the intercom and their roommate will let them in. These are all the loopholes.

I was willingly registered all 3 of us and was being honest about it. Look what is happening to me and I am sure there are others too. We are ended up supporting the over crowing units.

The fee is supposed to be applied using some rules. For an example, family with young children (under the legal age) is exempt as these children are not able to move out and to support themselves. This is just one idea.
It is not fair to use the same paintbrush that was intended for renters/inventors.
Deal Addict
Aug 12, 2004
4511 posts
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Calgary
anotherbargainhunter wrote: I do not oppose the fee altogether. I understand its purpose and it COULD deter slum landlords, but will not completely solve the problem as they probably still making money by overcrowding their units. You also need to be aware that it is impossible to know how many people actually live in their units. Why? It is because many of them only request for few access fob and the rest they either piggy back people when the door is open, or simply dial in via the intercom and their roommate will let them in. These are all the loopholes.

I was willingly registered all 3 of us and was being honest about it. Look what is happening to me and I am sure there are others too. We are ended up supporting the over crowing units.

The fee is supposed to be applied using some rules. For an example, family with young children (under the legal age) is exempt as these children are not able to move out and to support themselves. This is just one idea.
It is not fair to use the same paintbrush that was intended for renters/inventors.
That's why you should be attending AGMs... It's written in law now, so any changes has to be voted on. Did you speak to your condo board about your concerns? Note that just because you are low risk low offending family doesn't mean everyone is the same, what about a family with 3 children under the age of 2 in a 1 bedroom apartment? That is certainly overcrowded, and no other condo unit wants to subsidise a family of 5. Technically you are already over with your child. A friend of ine had to move out of their condo within 1 year after the birth of their child, since it was an adult only condo.

Yes you are right that it seems to punish those being honest and won't fully solve the problem. Guess what, we have rules in terms of pets, cars, rental units, etc... Not everyone abides by them. Those people, when caught are warned first, then fined. Not everyone gets caught, but it's fairly easy to tell if there are extra occupants (usually comes from complaints from your neighbours) If they do not pay, they get a caveat placed on their land title. Overcrowding definitely is a huge problem in your building, and the solution of 75$ per extra person is a much better solution than raising everyone's fees because of bad units.
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Jul 14, 2008
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Firebot wrote: That's why you should be attending AGMs... It's written in law now, so any changes has to be voted on. Did you speak to your condo board about your concerns? Note that just because you are low risk low offending family doesn't mean everyone is the same, what about a family with 3 children under the age of 2 in a 1 bedroom apartment? That is certainly overcrowded, and no other condo unit wants to subsidise a family of 5. Technically you are already over with your child. A friend of ine had to move out of their condo within 1 year after the birth of their child, since it was an adult only condo.

Yes you are right that it seems to punish those being honest and won't fully solve the problem. Guess what, we have rules in terms of pets, cars, rental units, etc... Not everyone abides by them. Those people, when caught are warned first, then fined. Not everyone gets caught, but it's fairly easy to tell if there are extra occupants (usually comes from complaints from your neighbours) If they do not pay, they get a caveat placed on their land title. Overcrowding definitely is a huge problem in your building, and the solution of 75$ per extra person is a much better solution than raising everyone's fees because of bad units.
That's the thing, isn't it? The honest will subsidize the dishonest, who rarely get caught. So the fee ends up being more onerous to people who likely are not even contributing to the problem, as opposed to targeting those units/tenants/landlords who are the actual offenders. Let's say they continue to fly under the radar (likely), and this $75 ends up being insufficient. Now they make it an additional $150/m. Etc it's probably higher than it needs to be because there is a smaller pool of people contributing to the excess (the honest). All this is assumptions of course, I have no idea of the actual conditions of this apartment.
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Jan 6, 2011
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Several types of overcrowding:

1. Owner self use: affordability dictates small unit thus overcrowding by owner and no profit is involved
2. Landlord/Tenant Self Use/Sublets: similar but there's profit motive as well; landlord owner may lacked the intention but the tenant do.
3. Slumlords/Short Term leases/AirBnB or stacked beds for pure profit--> security issues

#1 would be internal pure cost attribution issue, which is impossible to resolve.
#2 and 3 are external deterrence issues, somewhat resolvable but at genuine owner's expense.

Therefore, my view is to leave genuine owners along and target those profiting from someone else's expenses.

Let the city by-law to deal with owner's abuses.
Member
Mar 10, 2009
317 posts
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Toronto
LongLiveRFD wrote: Question for those who stated separate metering should be mandatory...

Does separate meter really adds value for owners or resale?

1. You pay time-of-day 6-13 cents vs bulk rate 9 cent.
2. You pay admin plus account change fees
3. Are delivery and other charges calculated same as bulk? otherwise you lose on those too.

Comparing my bills for both, it's not conclusive to go either way. What have I missed?
A lot of it will depend on your lifestyle. For me I'm out of my condo at 7AM and i'm back around 5:30 however I don't use any major appliance (dishwasher / laundry) until after 7PM when rates are lowest. For me, my Hydro/Electricity bill ranged from $35-50 per month depending on the month. And out of the $35-$50, about $25-$30 of it was for delivery! (don't get me started on the ridiculous delivery charges).

I have family that lives in condo's where the units are not independently metered and their maintenance fees keep going up every year (In the 2 years I was in my condo my maintenance fees went up $20/mth total).
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Jan 6, 2011
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imperial1 wrote: A lot of it will depend on your lifestyle. For me I'm out of my condo at 7AM and i'm back around 5:30 however I don't use any major appliance (dishwasher / laundry) until after 7PM when rates are lowest. For me, my Hydro/Electricity bill ranged from $35-50 per month depending on the month. And out of the $35-$50, about $25-$30 of it was for delivery! (don't get me started on the ridiculous delivery charges).

I have family that lives in condo's where the units are not independently metered and their maintenance fees keep going up every year (In the 2 years I was in my condo my maintenance fees went up $20/mth total).
You are frugal, $60/mo. is minimal for me.

If you look at the financial statement, your corp is still paying for hydro.

So, if you add the corp's hydro, divide by # of units then add your own, do you still save?

Based on my neighbors, they complained the savings aren't much if any.

Further, your fan coil motor is about 50W? that's your unit cost for using A/C and heating which costs more than 50W? The AC/Heating is not-metered. So the abuse on central air still makes tons of sense. Assuming central air usage ~ sq ft or volume, the incremental cost may curve upwards. In English, bad for cost attribution among different unit size.

Then, the point is to add yet another middleman's profit? the admin fee itself is $10-$15 per month just to track your usage?
Member
Mar 10, 2009
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Toronto
LongLiveRFD wrote: You are frugal, $60/mo. is minimal for me.

If you look at the financial statement, your corp is still paying for hydro.

So, if you add the corp's hydro, divide by # of units then add your own, do you still save?

Based on my neighbors, they complained the savings aren't much if any.

Further, your fan coil motor is about 50W? that's your unit cost for using A/C and heating which costs more than 50W? The AC/Heating is not-metered. So the abuse on central air still makes tons of sense.

Then, the point is to add yet another middleman's profit? the admin fee itself is $10-$15 per month just to track your usage?
You got me there I didn't do an in-depth breakdown anywhere close to that. You're right I guess I am pretty frugal.. barely used the A/C / heater (got a nice breeze from the balcony / windows in the summer and I'm pretty sure my computer / plasma TV contributed to heat in the winter lol).. dishwasher twice a week and laundry once a week. I used the stove to cook a couple times a week (bought food the other times) and of course daily showers. That said my condo was also on top of lots of things (energy efficient bulbs throughout the entire building, energy efficient windows, even efficient toilets and shower heads lol.
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Apr 22, 2014
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, ON
There was a typo on my post. The only utilities included in maintenance fee is water. Hydro is out of pocket.
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Aug 12, 2004
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Calgary
onlineharvest wrote: That's the thing, isn't it? The honest will subsidize the dishonest, who rarely get caught. So the fee ends up being more onerous to people who likely are not even contributing to the problem, as opposed to targeting those units/tenants/landlords who are the actual offenders. Let's say they continue to fly under the radar (likely), and this $75 ends up being insufficient. Now they make it an additional $150/m. Etc it's probably higher than it needs to be because there is a smaller pool of people contributing to the excess (the honest). All this is assumptions of course, I have no idea of the actual conditions of this apartment.
The condo building has to run somehow and pay its bills right? If it's not a 75$ fee, it will be a 50$+ fee increase across the board on condo fees, and it does not target the abusers. So now everyone will get hit, including those abiding with the occupancy standard. Generally condo fees are adjusted based on square footage, the same argument could be made. Technically a family of 3 in a 1 bedroom is already past the occupancy standard designed for the condo building. The condo IMO used a very fair calculation to get a fee based on occupancy levels. It's not perfect, but any system where the units are not metered will never be 'fair' to everyone. Certainly the single working male is not using as much as a family of 3.

Let's remember that this was voted on by a majority of those attending the AGM. Clearly the majority people viewed that the current subsidising of extended families and overcrowded units was unfair and voted accordingly. OP needs to go to these meetings. at this point with it written in the bylaw, all he can do is voice his concern and hope the condo board will make exceptions and request an amendment to be voted on. Perhaps knock door to door, get a petition signed by other members in a similar state (at the same time take count of all the abusing units :D).

It's funny, the people complaining about rule changes and new fees in a building always tend to be the least interested in AGM's and are never involved in my experience.
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Jan 6, 2011
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anotherbargainhunter wrote: There was a typo on my post. The only utilities included in maintenance fee is water. Hydro is out of pocket.
Only unit hydro is metered.

Your fan coil is still shared, which means AC and heating. It takes energy to provide central air to unit, that is not metered.

Take out your last AGM package, add up corp's hydro, water and gas expenses then divide by # of units, you get a true picture.

So the $20 hydro charge out of the $75 is mainly for cooling extra body giving off heat in summer i.e. less than 6 months.
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imperial1 wrote: You got me there I didn't do an in-depth breakdown anywhere close to that. You're right I guess I am pretty frugal.. barely used the A/C / heater (got a nice breeze from the balcony / windows in the summer and I'm pretty sure my computer / plasma TV contributed to heat in the winter lol).. dishwasher twice a week and laundry once a week. I used the stove to cook a couple times a week (bought food the other times) and of course daily showers. That said my condo was also on top of lots of things (energy efficient bulbs throughout the entire building, energy efficient windows, even efficient toilets and shower heads lol.
Yup. But it's difficult to make cooling tower/boiler more efficient, and those are still subject to abuses.

Most people don't know, so they turn off central air to save hydro. Actually you only pay a fraction per unit time usage, the corp pays the majority.

Therefore, fairness is concept like smart grid, we can only get closer but not possible to get there.
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May 5, 2012
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CALGARY
Just an innocent question...

By that logic, would 2 people living in a 2 bedroom unit incur a savings of $150 in condo fees since we do not use our 'allotted' utilities?
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
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starbelow wrote: Just an innocent question...

By that logic, would 2 people living in a 2 bedroom unit incur a savings of $150 in condo fees since we do not use our 'allotted' utilities?
They would, if they cared enough to go to the AGM and could persuade a majority to vote in a change to the condo bylaws... But if they just want to complain about their condo fees in the comfort of their living room, then they save nothing. And if they tried to withhold the $150/month off their fee payments, they would find themselves slapped with a lien on their property, most likely.

C
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Jan 6, 2011
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I think it goes like this:
1BD~up to 2 occupancy
2BD~up to 3 occupancy
3BD~up to 4 occupancy

OP had a infant dependent, and corp wanted to charge $75/mo., because they can.

Am I the only one curious OP's board's reply?
Deal Fanatic
Jan 15, 2017
5750 posts
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Ottawa
OP, I don't think that it is normal, but I think you may be in a difficult place. Most ON cities have occupancy rules that provide for 2 people per bedroom. Your condo board may have brought in its rule to recover fees, but the rule violates occupancy guidelines and is most likely unenforceable. The problem though is that by complaining to the board, you may force the board to seek legal advice on its rule and this bring to the board's attention its requirement to adhere to the occupancy guidelines. This may very well force the condo board to issue you a directive to meet the occupancy guidelines. (either someone moves or you all move).

Before you open a pandora's box that you may later regret, on this you really should seek the advice of a condo lawyer.
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Jan 27, 2004
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ONTARIO
skeet50 wrote: OP, I don't think that it is normal, but I think you may be in a difficult place. Most ON cities have occupancy rules that provide for 2 people per bedroom. Your condo board may have brought in its rule to recover fees, but the rule violates occupancy guidelines and is most likely unenforceable. The problem though is that by complaining to the board, you may force the board to seek legal advice on its rule and this bring to the board's attention its requirement to adhere to the occupancy guidelines. This may very well force the condo board to issue you a directive to meet the occupancy guidelines. (either someone moves or you all move).

Before you open a pandora's box that you may later regret, on this you really should seek the advice of a condo lawyer.
I always thought that condo boards are allowed to enact any by-law... PROVIDEd that it doesnt violate human rights.

For example... you can't have a by-law that says no purple and sky blue people allowed.
But you can say "no pets allowed"...
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Dec 27, 2009
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Adding this to the many, many reasons I f'ing hate condos and all their BS.
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Mar 31, 2008
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Chickinvic wrote: Adding this to the many, many reasons I f'ing hate condos and all their BS.
Yupp. I guess a place like Vancouver, want to enjoy the great weather and lifestyle, where housing is super expensive, gotta accept the rules of the game there.
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at1212b wrote: Yupp. I guess a place like Vancouver, want to enjoy the great weather and lifestyle, where housing is super expensive, gotta accept the rules of the game there.
I don't find Vancouver's weather great at all. I'm from Victoria (which has much better weather than Vancouver with only about 1/2 the rain). Dreary, wet grey depressing place much of the time IMO.

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