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Locked: Costs are going up as 2018 approaches?

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  • Dec 30th, 2017 7:16 pm
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Jr. Member
Jul 28, 2017
134 posts
252 upvotes
theguru wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 6:09 pm
The Seattle disaster. Guess Kathie and her team missed this on the internet. Can't let facts get in the way of pandering.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/na ... 431424001/
"The Seattle disaster." More fear mongering from people who find issue with the min wage hike.

Here, let me link you to a few articles that contradict that one. It's just as easy to find the other side of the argument. Here's a better thought, "Seattle min wage increase: We still don't fully understand whether it's a positive or negative."

http://fortune.com/2017/06/27/seattle-m ... dollar-uw/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... 219083cf89
TrevorK wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 4:53 pm
I get it - you have nothing to back your point other than generalizations. It's fine - if you do not want a discussion that's great. I was more than polite in my reply to you. But don't dismiss anecdotal information when all you can provide is anecdotal information yourself. I believe that would label you a hypocrite.

But hey, continue acting like the 6 year old you reference.
I don't entirely disagree with you. Prices will probably go up. They would have gone up regardless. That still doesn't mean that everything becomes too expensive to afford. If you can't afford your Timmies coffee and bagel every morning, maybe some people will change their habits and make coffee at home to bring to work. To match previous profits, owners don't even need to raise their prices all that much. Certainly not by the amount of that minimum wage goes up.

Now, when you think about it, does having a little bit more disposable income for a family allow them to take their kids (or themselves) out for dinner? Or to buy a new TV at the retail store? Would having a little extra money, rather than living paycheque to paycheque allow that family to afford to buy something that they otherwise could not before? Most likely.

http://irle.berkeley.edu/files/2017/Sea ... 015-16.pdf

Sums it up perfectly. We are still unsure of how a min wage increase will affect Ontario. Many studies show that it would not have a negative impact and they reiterate that it is NOT doom and gloom and disaster as some people seem to make it out to be.

And for extra info, living wages by city in Ontario:
http://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_by_region
Deal Fanatic
Feb 7, 2017
9898 posts
7185 upvotes
Eastern Ontario
theguru wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 3:37 pm
My god. Harris was like 20 years ago. Move on already. Given the endless references to Harris, i expect to be blaming mcguilty and Wynne for centuries.
Lol...
And we will

And this from someone who admittedly voted Liberal provincially in the past

These two clowns have really made a fine mess of the Liberal Party in Ontario.

I’ll never be outright Blue or Orange (or any other colour)... but unlike my ancestors, I am not above switching allegiance any longer and voting for who I see to be the BEST CANDIDATE for the job... be that in my riding, or the head of the party.

Ontario has a terrible track record with Premiers
Period
Deal Expert
Aug 2, 2001
15930 posts
6115 upvotes
Retrodude wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 7:13 pm
I don't entirely disagree with you. Prices will probably go up. They would have gone up regardless. That still doesn't mean that everything becomes too expensive to afford. If you can't afford your Timmies coffee and bagel every morning, maybe some people will change their habits and make coffee at home to bring to work. To match previous profits, owners don't even need to raise their prices all that much. Certainly not by the amount of that minimum wage goes up.

Now, when you think about it, does having a little bit more disposable income for a family allow them to take their kids (or themselves) out for dinner? Or to buy a new TV at the retail store? Would having a little extra money, rather than living paycheque to paycheque allow that family to afford to buy something that they otherwise could not before? Most likely.

http://irle.berkeley.edu/files/2017/Sea ... 015-16.pdf

Sums it up perfectly. We are still unsure of how a min wage increase will affect Ontario. Many studies show that it would not have a negative impact and they reiterate that it is NOT doom and gloom and disaster as some people seem to make it out to be.

And for extra info, living wages by city in Ontario:
http://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_by_region
It really depends what impact you are looking for - most of the studies seem to revolve around whether employment is lost. But to me, that's not the big picture and is just a short term side effect if it happens.

What I am more concerned with, myself, is whether an increase in minimum wage is negated by an increase in prices. We seem to both agree - prices will go up if delivering the service / good relies on minimum wage labour. If I understand your position it is that when prices go up people will cut down on unnecessary items. Personally I am not quite sure this is always this case. People generally want more and more, and hesitate to cut down on the "luxuries" that may be fast food lunches and coffee at Tims. Will they cut back on discretionary spending if prices rise? Maybe - but maybe they will save less and extend their finances further. I do not think it's reasonable to think that people always make good financial choices - especially those with a history of poor finances.
Jr. Member
Jul 28, 2017
134 posts
252 upvotes
TrevorK wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 10:10 pm
It really depends what impact you are looking for - most of the studies seem to revolve around whether employment is lost. But to me, that's not the big picture and is just a short term side effect if it happens.

What I am more concerned with, myself, is whether an increase in minimum wage is negated by an increase in prices. We seem to both agree - prices will go up if delivering the service / good relies on minimum wage labour. If I understand your position it is that when prices go up people will cut down on unnecessary items. Personally I am not quite sure this is always this case. People generally want more and more, and hesitate to cut down on the "luxuries" that may be fast food lunches and coffee at Tims. Will they cut back on discretionary spending if prices rise? Maybe - but maybe they will save less and extend their finances further. I do not think it's reasonable to think that people always make good financial choices - especially those with a history of poor finances.
Right, I think the biggest issue I have is those who spell "disaster" or scream like it's the end of the world. As soon as it was announced, I saw an ad video about the dangers of raising minimum wage and it cited a few things - the increase in fast food, as you mentioned and another one (that I get a good laugh at) is the loss of small mom and pops stores. Tell me, whens the last time the majority (not all, of course) of people chose to stop at a mom and pop coffee shop for their morning brew? Maybe 5% actively support these small businesses? There's a plethora of reasons, the coffee is probably more expensive (albeit MUCH tastier) and it's ultimately not along the way for you and I. We won't go out of our way in the morning to stop there when there's 8 Timmies along the route. Many people fail to acknowledge that small businesses have been struggling for many years, beyond the reasons of this minimum wage hike, and other things, such as automation, has been ongoing way before all this.

I do also agree that those who were above minimum are less likely to see a wage hike. However, how is that the fault of min wage workers? They put the blame squarely on their shoulders rather than looking at the fact that most successful businesses can easily handle an increase to their wages. But, of course those top corporate CEO's need to make their 6 or 7 digit bonuses at the end of the year rather than increase those wages by a few bucks. Wealth disparity should be a more pressing issue rather than just scapegoating min wage employees.

From the literature I've read and the research (actual peer-reviewed), almost all of it indicates a positive outcome when min wage goes up. I'd rather wait and see how things pan out a year from now before casting a formal opinion or making such strong remarks as "liberals buying votes" or "what a disaster!!"

I do appreciate the level-headedness of our conversation here rather than painting a line between blue and red and orange. Ultimately none of us knows how things will go but I severely doubt the economy will crash, nor do I believe it solves all of our problems.
Deal Fanatic
Feb 7, 2017
9898 posts
7185 upvotes
Eastern Ontario
Retrodude wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 11:38 pm
Right, I think the biggest issue I have is those who spell "disaster" or scream like it's the end of the world. As soon as it was announced, I saw an ad video about the dangers of raising minimum wage and it cited a few things - the increase in fast food, as you mentioned and another one (that I get a good laugh at) is the loss of small mom and pops stores. Tell me, whens the last time the majority (not all, of course) of people chose to stop at a mom and pop coffee shop for their morning brew? Maybe 5% actively support these small businesses? There's a plethora of reasons, the coffee is probably more expensive (albeit MUCH tastier) and it's ultimately not along the way for you and I. We won't go out of our way in the morning to stop there when there's 8 Timmies along the route. Many people fail to acknowledge that small businesses have been struggling for many years, beyond the reasons of this minimum wage hike, and other things, such as automation, has been ongoing way before all this.

I do also agree that those who were above minimum are less likely to see a wage hike. However, how is that the fault of min wage workers? They put the blame squarely on their shoulders rather than looking at the fact that most successful businesses can easily handle an increase to their wages. But, of course those top corporate CEO's need to make their 6 or 7 digit bonuses at the end of the year rather than increase those wages by a few bucks. Wealth disparity should be a more pressing issue rather than just scapegoating min wage employees.

From the literature I've read and the research (actual peer-reviewed), almost all of it indicates a positive outcome when min wage goes up. I'd rather wait and see how things pan out a year from now before casting a formal opinion or making such strong remarks as "liberals buying votes" or "what a disaster!!"

I do appreciate the level-headedness of our conversation here rather than painting a line between blue and red and orange. Ultimately none of us knows how things will go but I severely doubt the economy will crash, nor do I believe it solves all of our problems.
Good post

Well written & CALMLY presented
(Nice change of pace for the RFD OT FORUM... lol wonder how long it will last)
Deal Guru
User avatar
Aug 20, 2012
12118 posts
1804 upvotes
Pacific Ocean
When in doubt blame the US. "It's the exchange rate. Nothing we can do about it." Sure, except when the cross has been range trading for over 3 freakin yrs. Take a seat.
If the glove don't fit you must acquit! #WINNING
Deal Guru
Feb 9, 2012
14652 posts
2729 upvotes
Toronto
Will a person currently earning $13.60/hr earn $16.00 in the new year? Or will they be short changed and only earn $15 or so? The law only states a min. wage of $14...nothing to force a pay of $16.00...
(based on previously being paid $2 more than the minimum wage...I know a few people who currently are.)
Deal Guru
Jan 15, 2006
12464 posts
8643 upvotes
Richmond Hill
playnicee1 wrote:
Dec 29th, 2017 11:23 am
Will a person currently earning $13.60/hr earn $16.00 in the new year? Or will they be short changed and only earn $15 or so? The law only states a min. wage of $14...nothing to force a pay of $16.00...
(based on previously being paid $2 more than the minimum wage...I know a few people who currently are.)
This has been hashed to death. It's a min. Wage increase so how can ppl making more than minimum get an increase... It's rhetorical yes...
Deal Expert
Aug 2, 2001
15930 posts
6115 upvotes
Retrodude wrote:
Dec 28th, 2017 11:38 pm
Right, I think the biggest issue I have is those who spell "disaster" or scream like it's the end of the world. As soon as it was announced, I saw an ad video about the dangers of raising minimum wage and it cited a few things - the increase in fast food, as you mentioned and another one (that I get a good laugh at) is the loss of small mom and pops stores. Tell me, whens the last time the majority (not all, of course) of people chose to stop at a mom and pop coffee shop for their morning brew? Maybe 5% actively support these small businesses? There's a plethora of reasons, the coffee is probably more expensive (albeit MUCH tastier) and it's ultimately not along the way for you and I. We won't go out of our way in the morning to stop there when there's 8 Timmies along the route. Many people fail to acknowledge that small businesses have been struggling for many years, beyond the reasons of this minimum wage hike, and other things, such as automation, has been ongoing way before all this.

I do also agree that those who were above minimum are less likely to see a wage hike. However, how is that the fault of min wage workers? They put the blame squarely on their shoulders rather than looking at the fact that most successful businesses can easily handle an increase to their wages. But, of course those top corporate CEO's need to make their 6 or 7 digit bonuses at the end of the year rather than increase those wages by a few bucks. Wealth disparity should be a more pressing issue rather than just scapegoating min wage employees.

From the literature I've read and the research (actual peer-reviewed), almost all of it indicates a positive outcome when min wage goes up. I'd rather wait and see how things pan out a year from now before casting a formal opinion or making such strong remarks as "liberals buying votes" or "what a disaster!!"

I do appreciate the level-headedness of our conversation here rather than painting a line between blue and red and orange. Ultimately none of us knows how things will go but I severely doubt the economy will crash, nor do I believe it solves all of our problems.
There is no doubt the economy will survive - at worst prices increase leaving the working poor in the same position and the middle class with less buying power. It's not desirable but not something we cannot live with.

The reason for so much doom and gloom is there are many businesses that rely on minimum wage labour and they are going to go through tougher times. A combination of raising prices and lowering profit is a possible outcome, and no one likes to make less money (regardless of what they make). It makes sense these people would complain - their earnings are going to go down. For the middle class their buying power will go down and their wages will likely not rise - again it makes sense that these people will complain because they are going to lose some buying power.

Who could potentially benefit are the minimum wage earners and businesses / industries that those earners spend money on. It's unlikely the middle class benefit directly, and it may be decades before the indirect benefits are realized (e.g. will lower income people be able to send their kids to university? will lower income people make healthier choices with more money?)

Whether it is a good or bad thing really depends on what point of view you take, and how it exactly plays out (are owners willing to take less profit?). For myself and my financial situation in the immediate (10 years or less) future this is not a good decision and will directly cost me thousands of dollars. To suggest it is a political party buying votes has some credit - the wage increase will appeal to a large variety of voters. Are these individuals that tend not to vote? Are these individuals that tend to vote for other parties? Buying votes happens all the time - many decisions are meant to cater to a specific group of people. Saying "this is buying votes" is another way of saying "this group of people are very thankful for what you are doing".


At the end of the day I think the problem with increasing minimum wage is that we do not know how this will affect each of us. We are stuck hearing people tell us "everything will be OK" and others telling us "the world will end". However common sense tells us the money has to come from somewhere - and it's not a question of whether it comes from each of us, it's a question of how much comes from each of us.
Deal Guru
Feb 9, 2012
14652 posts
2729 upvotes
Toronto
EP32k2 wrote:
Dec 29th, 2017 1:04 pm
This has been hashed to death. It's a min. Wage increase so how can ppl making more than minimum get an increase... It's rhetorical yes...
Looking at it that way, it secures that $13.60 becomes $14, but then, given the options, depending on loyalty to a company (etc) maybe there's a company down the way competing wage wise, offering $16 if the current company refuses to..."Pay people what they're worth".
(based on the idea that paying $2 more than min. wage was paying people what they're worth...)
Banned
Sep 22, 2009
691 posts
310 upvotes
Toronto
The same people who have posted on this thread that we should all jump for joy at raising the min wage and the associated further erosion of the middle class are the same people who troll rfd looking for deals. Ironic isn't it that the very people who thrive on saving money feel so generous spending other people's hard earned cash?

Sorry but working a min wage job DOES NOT entitle you to own a home in Toronto. Sorry. Realty check.

Want to fix the problem?? Elect people who don't waste BILLIONS and then help those on the fringe with tax credits which don't punish everyone just to pander for votes. You think anyone at Queens park is worried about price increases?? Nope. Expense accounts, indexed pensions and brain-dead voters allow them to sleep.

Nothing more than politicking by soundbites and the sheep in ontario lap it up. Who better to manage my money than the government. I'm just a stupid tax vessel.

Looking forward to when this nightmare gets run out of office. Sadly, they will land a fat job with one of their pals who have had their pockets lined by her.

Bring on the comments folks.
Deal Fanatic
Feb 7, 2017
9898 posts
7185 upvotes
Eastern Ontario
playnicee1 wrote:
Dec 29th, 2017 11:23 am
Will a person currently earning $13.60/hr earn $16.00 in the new year? Or will they be short changed and only earn $15 or so? The law only states a min. wage of $14...nothing to force a pay of $16.00...
(based on previously being paid $2 more than the minimum wage...I know a few people who currently are.)
Had this convo with the kids when they were teens...

They started a job at Minimum Wage. They performed well, and they got a raise or a promotion.

Then the Minimum Wage increase was announced... they erroneously thought it would now mean they too would see a wage increase.

Did not happen cause they were not making Minimum Wage any longer.

Some employers paid a “slight” increase
Ie... Minimum Wage went up 50 cents, everyone across the board got 10 cents more an hour (McDs)... most likely to keep the underpaid masses from revolting & quitting enmasse

Other companies did nothing... and it was up to the Employee to negotiate an increase at their Employee Review (cost of living + performance)
Cause that is exactly how it is in the real world
Every worker for themselves

So ya, even if Minimum Wage goes up a buck or two, no guarantee anyone else’s pay is going to follow suit
(BTW 2017 rate of inflation is pegged at 2.1% by Stats Canada over 2016)

So person making $ 13.60 / hr can justify $ 13.87 come January 2018
Which essentially translates into the new $ 14.00 Minimum Wage
PLUS any other amount they wish to fight for based on merit of performance

Ya it sucks...

Want things to improve for you personally, then you got to somehow find a way out of the Middle Wage and slightly above layer of employment ... the best hope of that still remains education and entrepreneurship
Banned
Sep 22, 2009
691 posts
310 upvotes
Toronto
Entrepreneurship?? Have you not read what the child in Ottawa is doing to small businesss? Nope.. the only way to survive here is to 1) work for the government and be on the teat or 2) come in as a refugee.

Our government hates hard workers and those who have amassed some wealth. That is, other than their friends.
Deal Guru
Feb 9, 2012
14652 posts
2729 upvotes
Toronto
theguru wrote:
Dec 29th, 2017 5:41 pm
Our government hates hard workers and those who have amassed some wealth. That is, other than their friends.
You think the Liberals are the problem? It's the Conservatives that believed $6.85 is a good frozen wage no matter what goes up all around in cost.
They only helped the richest of the rich and let the rest of us rot.
Today's Conservatives will not be any better. They'll help only the wealthy (or the wealthiest of the wealthy)...don't get fooled.
Deal Fanatic
Feb 7, 2017
9898 posts
7185 upvotes
Eastern Ontario
theguru wrote:
Dec 29th, 2017 5:41 pm
Entrepreneurship?? Have you not read what the child in Ottawa is doing to small businesss? Nope.. the only way to survive here is to 1) work for the government and be on the teat or 2) come in as a refugee.

Our government hates hard workers and those who have amassed some wealth. That is, other than their friends.
Huh ?

The Feds are going to cut Small Business Corp Taxes (up to $ 500 K in earnings)

How in earth is this a bad thing ?

Good for start ups, good for growth.

Sorry don’t follow your logic.

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