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[2024 CODE UPDATE] Ask me anything about home electrical requirements, electrical code, wiring, devices

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Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
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1. yes gfi is fine
2. you can only have max of 2 receptacle on 1 kitchen countertop circuit, they also can't be adjacent receptacle
3. as long as they remain accessible, you can cap off unused wires
4. both is fine but armored is probably easier
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
8 posts
Thanks for your time.

Based on that If I split my kitchen to two circuits ,one circuit for counter top, 2 duplex receptacles(one GFCI) on a 20amp standard breaker and another circuit for hood and counter top microwave and two 9w pot lights, it will be fine according to Ontario code?
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Oct 26, 2003
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Misota wrote: Thanks for your time.
Based on that If I split my kitchen to two circuits ,one circuit for counter top, 2 duplex receptacles(one GFCI) on a 20amp standard breaker and another circuit for hood and counter top microwave and two 9w pot lights, it will be fine according to Ontario code?
as long as your microwave plug goes in between of the another circuit such that no adjacent plugs are on the same circuit. What you have is 3 countertop plug setup, there is no point mentioning micowave that is not in a dedicated microwave shelf. Portable kitchen appliances does not matter to plug setup.
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Jun 21, 2003
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Stoney Creek, ON
Misota wrote: Thanks for your time.

Based on that If I split my kitchen to two circuits ,one circuit for counter top, 2 duplex receptacles(one GFCI) on a 20amp standard breaker and another circuit for hood and counter top microwave and two 9w pot lights, it will be fine according to Ontario code?
divx wrote: as long as your microwave plug goes in between of the another circuit such that no adjacent plugs are on the same circuit. What you have is 3 countertop plug setup, there is no point mentioning micowave that is not in a dedicated microwave shelf. Portable kitchen appliances does not matter to plug setup.
I could be wrong as I don’t believe I have tried this with an inspector but technically the code says counter top receptacles must be on a dedicated circuit so I don’t think the hood will be able to share that one. The lights can not be on that circuit.
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ChicoQuente wrote: I could be wrong as I don’t believe I have tried this with an inspector but technically the code says counter top receptacles must be on a dedicated circuit so I don’t think the hood will be able to share that one. The lights can not be on that circuit.
yes, the rangehood and lights should be on the lighting circuit.
Newbie
Jan 13, 2017
14 posts
Hello, I'm finishing my basement and I have some pull lights from the builder. I want to run some pot lights on a new circuit. Can I just put a cover over the existing pull lights and disconnect the circuit from the panel or will I have to remove all the wiring from the ceiling. Removing all the wiring would be a PIA since a lot of it is run between the HVAC ducts etc.
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Jun 21, 2003
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MagicMingXXS wrote: Hello, I'm finishing my basement and I have some pull lights from the builder. I want to run some pot lights on a new circuit. Can I just put a cover over the existing pull lights and disconnect the circuit from the panel or will I have to remove all the wiring from the ceiling. Removing all the wiring would be a PIA since a lot of it is run between the HVAC ducts etc.
Why not re-use the circuits?

If you’re not going to use them I would disconnect from the panel and just cut out as much of the wiring as you can. As long as it is fully disconnected from power and you cut it out of any boxes so the wires could never be accidentally livened up you can leave it behind. You can remove the old octagon boxes as well if you do this instead of leaving them behind with covers. You’ll regret leaving them if you do, there’s no such thing as a decent looking cover (in my opinion).
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
8 posts
ChicoQuente wrote: I could be wrong as I don’t believe I have tried this with an inspector but technically the code says counter top receptacles must be on a dedicated circuit so I don’t think the hood will be able to share that one. The lights can not be on that circuit.
Thanks.

But isn't lights counted as outlet? As far as I could find code is talking about number of outlets, in fact amps that a LED light draws from the circuit is way less than an appliance might connect to a receptacle.
I will ask my inspector to see if I can
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Jan 19, 2011
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Misota wrote: Thanks.

But isn't lights counted as outlet? As far as I could find code is talking about number of outlets, in fact amps that a LED light draws from the circuit is way less than an appliance might connect to a receptacle.
I will ask my inspector to see if I can
no, kitchen lighting cannot be on the same circuit as 'outlets' (Code refers to these as receptacles, but many call them outlets, duplex outlets, or duplex receptacles)

Lights are lights, receptacles are receptacles.

I would presume the thinking, is from back in the day of 100 watt light bulbs, that just a few bulbs on the same circuit as plugs meant that when you used either the toaster or the kettle, your current draw would exceed 15 amps, resulting in blown fuse or breaker.

A kettle can draw up to between 11 and 13 amps, and even if you add low power Led pots (because a kitchen will have like sixteen of the suckers) you are in a position of regularly overloading a 15 amp breaker (old code) or even a 20 amp breaker if you have something else plugged into it.
Last edited by fieldhousehandyman on Mar 11th, 2023 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."
Just a guy who dabbles in lots of stuff learning along the way. I do have opinions, and readily share them!
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Jun 21, 2003
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Misota wrote: Thanks.

But isn't lights counted as outlet? As far as I could find code is talking about number of outlets, in fact amps that a LED light draws from the circuit is way less than an appliance might connect to a receptacle.
I will ask my inspector to see if I can
EDIT: After re-reading your post I am updating mine. I see where the confusion lies and it is with terminology. You are using the terminology “outlet” which by the CEC definition could be a light. However the rules in play with your installation are related to RECEPTACLES not outlets. Lights and receptacles are completely different and the rules preventing what you want to do are specifically because you want to tap off kitchen receptacle circuits. The rest of my response has the rules you need to read.

————————————-

Personally I would not even bother asking your inspector as it is not to code. They are only going to give you the go ahead if they decide to not apply the CEC to your installation for some reason, which is the entire purpose of their job. There’s 2 issues you would face.

1. If you’re doing 20A circuits for your kitchen counter top receptacles then you have exceeded the 15A protection allowed for residential lighting as per rule 30-104.
30-104 Protection (see Appendix B)
The maximum rating of an overcurrent device protecting a branch circuit containing luminaires, lampholders, or lighting track shall be as follows:
a) when installed in a dwelling unit: 15 A; or
b) when installed in other than dwelling units:
i) 15 A where the input voltage is greater than 347 V nominal;
ii) 20 A where the input voltage is 347 V nominal or less; or
iii) 40 A where the load is from
A) luminaires with lampholders of the incandescent mogul base type;
B) high-intensity discharge (HID) luminaires, with or without auxiliary lighting systems,
where the input voltage does not exceed 120 V nominal;
C) tungsten halogen luminaires with double-ended lampholders, where the input voltage
does not exceed 240 V nominal; or
D) luminaires provided with an integral overcurrent device rated at not more than 15 A,
where the input voltage does not exceed 120 V nominal.
2. As I mentioned before you are only allowed 2 kitchen counter top receptacles per counter top circuit, and they must be dedicated.
26-656 Branch circuits for dwelling units (see Appendix B)
d) except as may be permitted by Items e) and f), at least two branch circuits shall be provided for
receptacles (5-15R split or 5-20R) installed for kitchen counters of dwelling units in accordance with Rule 26-722 d) iii), iv), and v), and
i) no more than two receptacles shall be connected to a branch circuit; and
ii) no other outlets shall be connected to these circuits;
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
8 posts
fieldhousehandyman wrote: no, kitchen lighting cannot be on the same circuit as 'outlets (receptacles, duplex outlets, duplex receptacles)

Lights are lights, outlets are outlets.

I would presume the thinking, is from back in the day of 100 watt light bulbs, that just a few bulbs on the same circuit as plugs meant that when you used either the toaster or the kettle, your current draw would exceed 15 amps, resulting in blown fuse or breaker.

A kettle can draw up to between 11 and 13 amps, and even if you add low power Led pots (because a kitchen will have like sixteen of the suckers) you are in a position of regularly overloading a 15 amp breaker (old code) or even a 20 amp breaker if you have something else plugged into it.
What if I put that receptacle as non-counter top one, I have a wall bigger than 90cm which is sorta end wall of my kitchen and in hallway of bathroom and I can't put any cabinet there. I have to add receptacle as code (Rule 26-722 d) iii)) required but only circuit I have will kitchen lights and hood.
In this case it can be acceptable?
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
8 posts
ChicoQuente wrote: EDIT: After re-reading your post I am updating mine. I see where the confusion lies and it is with terminology. You are using the terminology “outlet” which by the CEC definition could be a light. However the rules in play with your installation are related to RECEPTACLES not outlets. Lights and receptacles are completely different and the rules preventing what you want to do are specifically because you want to tap off kitchen receptacle circuits. The rest of my response has the rules you need to read.

————————————-

Personally I would not even bother asking your inspector as it is not to code. They are only going to give you the go ahead if they decide to not apply the CEC to your installation for some reason, which is the entire purpose of their job. There’s 2 issues you would face.

1. If you’re doing 20A circuits for your kitchen counter top receptacles then you have exceeded the 15A protection allowed for residential lighting as per rule 30-104.



2. As I mentioned before you are only allowed 2 kitchen counter top receptacles per counter top circuit, and they must be dedicated.
Many thanks for your explanation!

I'll check my inspector if I can have 1 receptacle and hood on one 20A circuit. (Actually that receptacle will be used for a counter top microwave) and I will add another circuit for the lights.

Last thing, I would appreciate it if you could check whether my circuits and breakers are acceptable
1- 40A for stove on the main panel
2- 30 A for Laundry on the main panel
3- 60 A for the sub panel on main panel
4- 15A AFCI for bedroom (5 receptacles + 2 LED light) in sub panel
5- 15 A AFCI for Diving and living rooms (5 receptacles+ 4 Led light)in sub panel
6- 15 A AFCI for 7 light and 1 receptacle in living rooms and hallway in sub panel
7- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual functions for Washing machine and one receptacle in sub panel
8- 15A standard for Bathroom in main panel
9- 20 A standard for fridge in sub panel
10- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for 2 counter top receptacle in sub panel
11- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for kitchen 1 receptacle and hood in sub panel (will check with inspector as well)


Thanks
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Oct 19, 2008
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Whitby
Misota wrote: Many thanks for your explanation!

I'll check my inspector if I can have 1 receptacle and hood on one 20A circuit. (Actually that receptacle will be used for a counter top microwave) and I will add another circuit for the lights.

Last thing, I would appreciate it if you could check whether my circuits and breakers are acceptable
1- 40A for stove on the main panel
2- 30 A for Laundry on the main panel
3- 60 A for the sub panel on main panel
4- 15A AFCI for bedroom (5 receptacles + 2 LED light) in sub panel
5- 15 A AFCI for Diving and living rooms (5 receptacles+ 4 Led light)in sub panel
6- 15 A AFCI for 7 light and 1 receptacle in living rooms and hallway in sub panel
7- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual functions for Washing machine and one receptacle in sub panel
8- 15A standard for Bathroom in main panel
9- 20 A standard for fridge in sub panel
10- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for 2 counter top receptacle in sub panel
11- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for kitchen 1 receptacle and hood in sub panel (will check with inspector as well)
I realize a panel can be over subscribed depending how load calc is done.....electric heaters and ac not used at same time so only one counts etc. But I think you need to do a load calc on the sub panel, get plan approved by ESA inspector before installing and having the rough in visit.

Also, its a basement kitchen-limited counter space. You should look at what over the range microwaves have strong exhaust ....if duct run isn't far eliminating the range hood solves some wiring issue.
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
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Zamboni wrote: I realize a panel can be over subscribed depending how load calc is done.....electric heaters and ac not used at same time so only one counts etc. But I think you need to do a load calc on the sub panel, get plan approved by ESA inspector before installing and having the rough in visit.

Also, its a basement kitchen-limited counter space. You should look at what over the range microwaves have strong exhaust ....if duct run isn't far eliminating the range hood solves some wiring issue.
My basement area is 500 sq.f (7000W) and all of my loads greater than 1500W(stove and dryer) will go the the breakers on the main panel, and sub panel will be feeding area loads, based on what I could calculate and found it will need 60A (CEC 8-200) and 16 circuits (8-108). So I got a 8/16 sub panel with 60A breaker. This electrical part of the renovation job turned into a nightmare.
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Oct 19, 2008
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Misota wrote: My basement area is 500 sq.f (7000W) and all of my loads greater than 1500W(stove and dryer) will go the the breakers on the main panel, and sub panel will be feeding area loads, based on what I could calculate and found it will need 60A (CEC 8-200) and 16 circuits (8-108). So I got a 8/16 sub panel with 60A breaker. This electrical part of the renovation job turned into a nightmare.
Okay, I was thinking 80% of 60amp gives you 48 on each leg so 96....and you looked over that. I'm with LEC tomorrow, run it by him if I think of it. More for my info, you seem to be satisfied the load calc is good. Wouldn't hurt to ask the ESA inspector assigned the permit, he won't engineer the job but most are helpful and will review something like this before you install.
Jr. Member
Feb 28, 2013
117 posts
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Toronto
I'm replacing my old single pole slide dimmer (Pass & Seymour) with a new Leviton dimmer. The back of the old dimmer is connected to one load wire and two hot live wires (screwed in and pushed in). The house was built in 2010 and there is no neutral or ground connected to the switch. I've replaced a standard single pole switch in this house before with one live wire but have never seen or replaced two hot live wires connected into one terminal.

Is it safe to to connect two hot wires to the new one? How do I connect this to the new dimmer which has 2 black wires and ground wire. I was going to tackle this job but wasn't confident to safely do it and was thinking just to hire an electrician if needed.
Any suggestion would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
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Winnipeg
Misota wrote: Many thanks for your explanation!

I'll check my inspector if I can have 1 receptacle and hood on one 20A circuit. (Actually that receptacle will be used for a counter top microwave) and I will add another circuit for the lights.

Last thing, I would appreciate it if you could check whether my circuits and breakers are acceptable
1- 40A for stove on the main panel
2- 30 A for Laundry on the main panel
3- 60 A for the sub panel on main panel
4- 15A AFCI for bedroom (5 receptacles + 2 LED light) in sub panel
5- 15 A AFCI for Diving and living rooms (5 receptacles+ 4 Led light)in sub panel
6- 15 A AFCI for 7 light and 1 receptacle in living rooms and hallway in sub panel
7- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual functions for Washing machine and one receptacle in sub panel
8- 15A standard for Bathroom in main panel
9- 20 A standard for fridge in sub panel
10- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for 2 counter top receptacle in sub panel
11- 20 A AFCI/GFCI dual for kitchen 1 receptacle and hood in sub panel (will check with inspector as well)
Thanks
which circuit is your smoke/co alarm on? you are over doing it with the AFCI.
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Jun 21, 2003
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ashbbey wrote: I'm replacing my old single pole slide dimmer (Pass & Seymour) with a new Leviton dimmer. The back of the old dimmer is connected to one load wire and two hot live wires (screwed in and pushed in). The house was built in 2010 and there is no neutral or ground connected to the switch. I've replaced a standard single pole switch in this house before with one live wire but have never seen or replaced two hot live wires connected into one terminal.

Is it safe to to connect two hot wires to the new one? How do I connect this to the new dimmer which has 2 black wires and ground wire. I was going to tackle this job but wasn't confident to safely do it and was thinking just to hire an electrician if needed.
Any suggestion would be appreciated. Thanks.
Yes it is safe to connect the 2 hot wires to 1 lead from the dimmer. You need to use a wire nut (aka “marrette”) to accomplish this. You then use a wire but to connect the other black lead to your load wire. If you are comfortable/able to do this properly it is completely safe/the proper way to do it. This is what an electrician would do for you. Of course if you’re not confident you can do it properly you should consider hiring someone. If you go that route I would look around the house and see if there’s anything else you need done as well. To have an electrician come out and make it worth their time for such a tiny job they will have no choice but to charge you much more than this should actually cost.
Jr. Member
Feb 28, 2013
117 posts
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Toronto
ChicoQuente wrote: Yes it is safe to connect the 2 hot wires to 1 lead from the dimmer. You need to use a wire nut (aka “marrette”) to accomplish this. You then use a wire but to connect the other black lead to your load wire. If you are comfortable/able to do this properly it is completely safe/the proper way to do it. This is what an electrician would do for you. Of course if you’re not confident you can do it properly you should consider hiring someone. If you go that route I would look around the house and see if there’s anything else you need done as well. To have an electrician come out and make it worth their time for such a tiny job they will have no choice but to charge you much more than this should actually cost.

Thank you for the advice. Just to confirm, connect the two hot wires to one lead and the load wire to the other lead. Cap the green ground wire not used. Does it matter which black wire lead I connect the 2 hot wires. Are they interchangeable?

Also, there’s only one light switch in the receptacle, why is there two hot wires connected together. Is one wire powering another outlet?
Newbie
Mar 1, 2023
8 posts
divx wrote: which circuit is your smoke/co alarm on? you are over doing it with the AFCI.
I got one down there from the builder, and going to add another in the bedroom area and as code requires to be interconnected with others so I ran wire next to the box and will connect them. Actually it will be on the other detectors circuit.
But my question is to be how should I terminate it there for rough-in inspection? To connect it I should remove the current detector and I won't have the detector till hanging drywall unless I leave the wires out the box or connect them and add wire nut to the wires of new box(because it will be hot)

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