Demerit Points do not affect Insurance!!

[Crinkle_cut]

Nor is it used in Alberta or the Atlantic Provinces!

[COSMIC5]

anything you were convicted for...

if i was convicted and in the process of appealling, what's gonna show up on my abstract?

[ticketcombat]

So can we agree on the following?

Demerit points DON'T affect your insurance in

• Alberta
• Ontario
• PEI
• New Brunswick
• Newfoundland and Labrador
• Nova Scotia

Demerit points DO affect your insurance in

• Saskatchewan
• Manitoba
• Quebec

Demerit points MAY affect your insurance in

• British Columbia

Someone else can comment on the territories.

Given the above AND that this is a national discussion board, either the title to this thread should be changed or the sticky removed.

[Crinkle_cut]

Correct I can only speak for private insurers, so those provinces you mentioned are correct.

Given that government insurers all use demerits based on your list of provinces, I will presume ICBC does as well, since they write the liability coverages in BC, and drivers must buy the liability insurance from ICBC. Private insurers can only try to sell physical damage coverages in BC (which is small compared to Liability and AB).

[xiLLeNtz]

sorry. let me see if i get this correct.

i got a speeding ticket. 20km over. 3 or so demerits.

if i DO NOT fight it then there is no conviction. but if i try and fight it then there will be a conviction?

[Crinkle_cut]

sorry. let me see if i get this correct.

i got a speeding ticket. 20km over. 3 or so demerits.

if i DO NOT fight it then there is no conviction. but if i try and fight it then there will be a conviction?

If you do not fight it, then you are convicted, because your are voluntarily stating that you are guilty by not fighting it.

If you fight it and negotiate for 0 points but still plead guilty, you are convicted by pleading guilty.

Only way it can not become a conviction is to fight it and get the charges dropped completely. Not this I'll give you 0 fine and 0 pts, if you still plead guilty, you are convicted. You need to plea not guilty and win your case to get no conviction added to your records.

[jsbola]

If you do not fight it, then you are convicted, because your are voluntarily stating that you are guilty by not fighting it.

If you fight it and negotiate for 0 points but still plead guilty, you are convicted by pleading guilty.

Only way it can not become a conviction is to fight it and get the charges dropped completely. Not this I'll give you 0 fine and 0 pts, if you still plead guilty, you are convicted. You need to plea not guilty and win your case to get no conviction added to your records.

So Im in the same boat, I was doing 85 in a 50 zone, even though I think 50 is too low for that are, but in any case the cop reduced the ticket to 20 over which is 3 points and $95 ticket. He told me my options and said I could talk to the crown to have it reduced and he would have no objections to it, but that would mean I have to plead guilty.

I cant afford for my insurance to go up, Im a full time student working 30hrs a week and paying for everything so the increase in insurance could potentially ruin my finances. If I go ahead and plead not guilty, what reason can I give or what should I tell the judge is my reason for pleading not guilty??? Please help!!!

[sam1234]

So can we agree on the following?

Demerit points DON'T affect your insurance in

• Alberta
• Ontario
• PEI
• New Brunswick
• Newfoundland and Labrador
• Nova Scotia

Demerit points DO affect your insurance in

• Saskatchewan
• Manitoba
• Quebec

Demerit points MAY affect your insurance in

• British Columbia

Someone else can comment on the territories.

Given the above AND that this is a national discussion board, either the title to this thread should be changed or the sticky removed.

I don't see any clear cut evidence that suggests Ontario based insurance companies do not use Demerit Points in their insurance rate calculations.

It can be subject from insurance company to insurance company. I do recall a few years ago my insurance agent advising me to not accumulate demerit points. So this thread is confusing to me still.

Regarding Ontario, I would say try posting this question on a forum that strictly deals with the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and Fighting Traffic Tickets..

Try posting this on Ontario Highway Traffic Act - Ontario Traffic Ticket Forum

[SuperCM]

So Im in the same boat, I was doing 85 in a 50 zone, even though I think 50 is too low for that are, but in any case the cop reduced the ticket to 20 over which is 3 points and $95 ticket. He told me my options and said I could talk to the crown to have it reduced and he would have no objections to it, but that would mean I have to plead guilty.

I cant afford for my insurance to go up, Im a full time student working 30hrs a week and paying for everything so the increase in insurance could potentially ruin my finances. If I go ahead and plead not guilty, what reason can I give or what should I tell the judge is my reason for pleading not guilty??? Please help!!!

Excuses don't work. You either did or did not speed. The way to fight a speeding ticket is on technicalities to create doubt that maybe you didn't speed after all.

[actng]

Excuses don't work. You either did or did not speed. The way to fight a speeding ticket is on technicalities to create doubt that maybe you didn't speed after all.

correct. do a google search for absolute liability vs strict liability.

[Crinkle_cut]

I don't see any clear cut evidence that suggests Ontario based insurance companies do not use Demerit Points in their insurance rate calculations.

It can be subject from insurance company to insurance company. I do recall a few years ago my insurance agent advising me to not accumulate demerit points. So this thread is confusing to me still.

Regarding Ontario, I would say try posting this question on a forum that strictly deals with the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and Fighting Traffic Tickets..

Try posting this on Ontario Highway Traffic Act - Ontario Traffic Ticket Forum

No need for me to post on another website. But I am an actuary (maybe you should research what an actuary is and does), who has worked for 3 of the top 5 insurance companies in Canada. And can tell you with certainty, the top 10 insurance companies in Ontario do not use demerit points in rating.
We also have competitive intelligence departments, who order the rate filings of competitors to see their algorithms and factors (which costs in the thousands of dollars per filing). This is so we can see if they have any factors that we don't have, so that we can decrease any gaps or inaccuracies in rating that other company's may have found.

Anyhow, no need to argue this point any further. Not sure what broker you talked to, but I wont be visiting another website. Redflag is all I need.

[COSMIC5]

I can tell you from actually being in the business, insurance companies definately DO NOT look at points, or base rating on them, they only look at the actual conviction. It IS NOT different from insurance company to insurance company. I have never seen anyone rated according to their demerit points and I have been doing this for a while.

I don't see any clear cut evidence that suggests Ontario based insurance companies do not use Demerit Points in their insurance rate calculations.It can be subject from insurance company to insurance company. I do recall a few years ago my insurance agent advising me to not accumulate demerit points. So this thread is confusing to me still.Regarding Ontario, I would say try posting this question on a forum that strictly deals with the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and Fighting Traffic Tickets..Try posting this on Ontario Highway Traffic Act - Ontario Traffic Ticket Forum

[sam1234]

No need for me to post on another website. But I am an actuary (maybe you should research what an actuary is and does), who has worked for 3 of the top 5 insurance companies in Canada. And can tell you with certainty, the top 10 insurance companies in Ontario do not use demerit points in rating.
We also have competitive intelligence departments, who order the rate filings of competitors to see their algorithms and factors (which costs in the thousands of dollars per filing). This is so we can see if they have any factors that we don't have, so that we can decrease any gaps or inaccuracies in rating that other company's may have found.

Anyhow, no need to argue this point any further. Not sure what broker you talked to, but I wont be visiting another website. Redflag is all I need.

You being an actuary means nothing! Here's some non attacking info by a Non-actuary

Demerits Points do not directly need to be calculated in any equation.

Demerit Points are bad for your license and do affect your over all license as pointed out on: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan.../demerit.shtml

" At six points, you may have to go to an interview to discuss your record and give reasons why your licence should not be suspended. If you don't attend, your licence may be suspended.

At nine points, your licence will be suspended for 60 days from the date you surrender it to the Ministry of Transportation. You can lose your licence for up to two years if you fail to surrender your licence. "

The factors are once you accumulate 9 Demerit Points, Your licence will be suspended.

Well, I'm no actuary but a Suspension on your Record, WILL BE a HUGE issue for your insurance company, and you could even get dropped, and be put on a High Risk insurance.

So, Yes Demerit Points, DO in fact have a hand in your insurance rates.

What I don't want people thinking, is that they can just forget the concept of Demerit Points and not even fight their ticket, because they think Demerit Points mean nothing, and it's just the conviction.

Fight your traffic ticket!

[Crinkle_cut]

You being an actuary means nothing! Here's some non attacking info by a Non-actuary

Demerits Points do not directly need to be calculated in any equation.

Demerit Points are bad for your license and do affect your over all license as pointed out on: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan.../demerit.shtml

" At six points, you may have to go to an interview to discuss your record and give reasons why your licence should not be suspended. If you don't attend, your licence may be suspended.

At nine points, your licence will be suspended for 60 days from the date you surrender it to the Ministry of Transportation. You can lose your licence for up to two years if you fail to surrender your licence. "

The factors are once you accumulate 9 Demerit Points, Your licence will be suspended.

Well, I'm no actuary but a Suspension on your Record, WILL BE a HUGE issue for your insurance company, and you could even get dropped, and be put on a High Risk insurance.

So, Yes Demerit Points, DO in fact have a hand in your insurance rates.

What I don't want people thinking, is that they can just forget the concept of Demerit Points and not even fight their ticket, because they think Demerit Points mean nothing, and it's just the conviction.

Fight your traffic ticket!

Your post added no value. This is the point everyone's been saying "That demerit points don't impact insurance, but convictions do." Demerit points only impact your drivers license validity, and they get reset after 2 yrs time. So to get your license suspended, is quite rare. How many drivers in Ontario get 15+ demerit points in 2 yrs time? I can see someone getting 10 points in 2 yrs, but 15+ takes quite an extraordinarily bad driver in my mind.

Yes, the convictions (which are simulatenously impacted by demerit points to a degree) impact your insurance. But if you get 2 convictions and negotiate 0 demerit points with each guilty plea, you'll have 0 demerit points, but 2 surcharges for your convictions. So you will get an increase in rates even though you have no demerits. This is the point, even though you can fight your demerits, your insurance will increase. So demerits on their own are pointless.

Yes your non actuarial theory makes so much sense, since I'm the one submitting filings to the regulators getting my algorithms approved, and I'm the one looking at our competitors regulator approved algorithms. Good stuff.

Also the website you sent the link to look at Ontario Highway Traffic Act forum has not many posters on it, and some topics haven't even had messages posted for over a year on it. So not credible site in my mind for info, hence won't be visiting that crap site anymore.

My argument is not to fall for the accept 0 demerit points but plea guilty trick that all prosecutors try to bait you into. You should fight the entire ticket if possible, so that you get 0 points and 0 convictions! hence I refer ppl to the ticketcombat website, and follow the rules to file for disclosure.

[COSMIC5]

I agree!

Your post added no value. This is the point everyone's been saying "That demerit points don't impact insurance, but convictions do." Demerit points only impact your drivers license validity, and they get reset after 2 yrs time. So to get your license suspended, is quite rare. How many drivers in Ontario get 15+ demerit points in 2 yrs time? I can see someone getting 10 points in 2 yrs, but 15+ takes quite an extraordinarily bad driver in my mind.
Yes, the convictions (which are simulatenously impacted by demerit points to a degree) impact your insurance. But if you get 2 convictions and negotiate 0 demerit points with each guilty plea, you'll have 0 demerit points, but 2 surcharges for your convictions. So you will get an increase in rates even though you have no demerits. This is the point, even though you can fight your demerits, your insurance will increase. So demerits on their own are pointless.Yes your non actuarial theory makes so much sense, since I'm the one submitting filings to the regulators getting my algorithms approved, and I'm the one looking at our competitors regulator approved algorithms. Good stuff.Also the website you sent the link to look at Ontario Highway Traffic Act forum has not many posters on it, and some topics haven't even had messages posted for over a year on it. So not credible site in my mind for info, hence won't be visiting that crap site anymore.My argument is not to fall for the accept 0 demerit points but plea guilty trick that all prosecutors try to bait you into. You should fight the entire ticket if possible, so that you get 0 points and 0 convictions! hence I refer ppl to the ticketcombat website, and follow the rules to file for disclosure.