Automotive

Demerit Points do not affect Insurance!!

  • Last Updated:
  • Apr 27th, 2016 12:34 am
Deal Guru
User avatar
Nov 2, 2003
14306 posts
606 upvotes
Scarborough
sam1234 wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 6:20 pm
You being an actuary means nothing! Here's some non attacking info by a Non-actuary :!:

Demerits Points do not directly need to be calculated in any equation.

sam1234... you're wasting your time arguing your point here. Even if crinkle and cosmic concede to your point (which they won't cuz they're right in this case) you still won't know for sure whether you're right because you're just going based on what people were telling you.

i had a similar argument just a few weeks ago about non-moving violations not affecting insurance. it was about two pages long of back and forth and at the end of the day, i know i'm right by having "tested" the system in addition to having talked to many people in the industry, some of whom told me one thing, some of whom told me another thing. but mainly i know because i have first hand experience as a result of the system not upping my rates for document violations... as do my friends, etc.

so i submit to you to put your money where your mouth is. the next time you get a speeding ticket, fight it and plea it down. don't get it thrown out and see whether it raises your rates. get your friends to do the same thing. then you will know.

who knows, maybe your insurance company is one of those off-beat ones that don't care about convictions, only points, although I've never heard of any. I doubt it. but who knows.
MOONBOX PRO:Group Buy | User Thread
H.TVBox 3 Group Buy | User Thread
TVPad4 | User Thread

Newbie
Jun 14, 2008
10 posts
ontario
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm
So to get your license suspended, is quite rare. How many drivers in Ontario get 15+ demerit points in 2 yrs time?
Exactly based on what type of knowledge or expertise are you basing this evidence on? You don't know what your talking about AT ALL!
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm

Yes, the convictions (which are simulatenously impacted by demerit points to a degree) impact your insurance.
Not to a degree, but a reality check is that one careless and one speeding over 16 to 29 km/h will suspend your license. It is common to get multiple tickets at a time.
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm

But if you get 2 convictions and negotiate 0 demerit points with each guilty plea, you'll have 0 demerit points, but 2 surcharges for your convictions. So you will get an increase in rates even though you have no demerits. This is the point, even though you can fight your demerits, your insurance will increase. So demerits on their own are pointless.
You really are ignorant if you don't grasp the idea of how demerit points affect your insurance.

Two tickets alone, if not pleaded down, can SUSPEND your license. Sure go ahead and fight them, then when you LOSE in trial, your stuck with the maximum penalties applicable.

You SHOULD care about Demerit Points, especially on the tickets and trials that you have no chance of winning.
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm

Yes your non actuarial theory makes so much sense, since I'm the one submitting filings to the regulators getting my algorithms approved, and I'm the one looking at our competitors regulator approved algorithms. Good stuff.
Wow, good for you buddy. Calculate life insurance all day along there! :D
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm

Also the website you sent the link to look at Ontario Highway Traffic Act forum has not many posters on it, and some topics haven't even had messages posted for over a year on it. So not credible site in my mind for info, hence won't be visiting that crap site anymore.
You probably want to wash your mouth with soap. The website referred is probably a greater resource to you than you could imagine.

Especially for someone with the likes of your mentality.
Crinkle_cut wrote:
Oct 15th, 2009 10:49 pm

My argument is not to fall for the accept 0 demerit points but plea guilty trick that all prosecutors try to bait you into. You should fight the entire ticket if possible, so that you get 0 points and 0 convictions! hence I refer ppl to the ticketcombat website, and follow the rules to file for disclosure.
Hellooo...there is NO plead guilty TRICK as you make it out to be. You are being offered Pleas for a reason, as a mercy upon you from the justice system.

IF you try to fight every ticket, you will LOSE. Then you will gain more demerit points, then your license is gone!

What your telling people to do is flawed, and you are not an expert in this field, and should not be giving any advise at all!
Deal Guru
User avatar
Nov 2, 2003
14306 posts
606 upvotes
Scarborough
sam1234... do you realize what you're advocating is a SUBSET of what everyone else is saying in this thread?

the reason why you should fight your ticket is to avoid convictions. the demerit points are irrelevant because convictions matter MORE than demerit points.

you can get one ticket with 4 points or you can get 3 tickets with no points. insurance might drop you for getting three tickets, even no points.

so yes you should fight your tickets, but not to avoid demerit points, to avoid convictions because those matter more than demerit points.

if you have so many points that your license is suspended, you would still get dropped by insurance. so you should fight them.

but if you have zero points, it's still possible to get dropped due to too many convictions.
MOONBOX PRO:Group Buy | User Thread
H.TVBox 3 Group Buy | User Thread
TVPad4 | User Thread

Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Aug 11, 2008
6909 posts
391 upvotes
Burlington
Exactly.....why bother arguing anyhow, we all know insurance companies don't rate based on demerit points, just what the conviction is.
actng wrote:
Oct 17th, 2009 12:37 am
sam1234... do you realize what you're advocating is a SUBSET of what everyone else is saying in this thread?
the reason why you should fight your ticket is to avoid convictions. the demerit points are irrelevant because convictions matter MORE than demerit points.
you can get one ticket with 4 points or you can get 3 tickets with no points. insurance might drop you for getting three tickets, even no points.
so yes you should fight your tickets, but not to avoid demerit points, to avoid convictions because those matter more than demerit points.

if you have so many points that your license is suspended, you would still get dropped by insurance. so you should fight them.

but if you have zero points, it's still possible to get dropped due to too many convictions.
RIBO LICENCED INSURANCE BROKER(ontario) -OVER 30 YRS OF EXPERIENCE
YOUR BEST INSURANCE IS AN INSURANCE BROKER
All the information provided is for reference purposes only. The actual wordings, conditions and exclusions of your policy will apply.
Newbie
Oct 20, 2009
1 posts
Brampton
I got a speeding ticket in NY for going 12 over the limit on the interstate and if I plead guilty, there's a conviction and 4 points in addition to the fine. I'm wondering if anyone knows if this will affect my Ontario insurance rates.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Aug 11, 2008
6909 posts
391 upvotes
Burlington
go to your local MTO office and pay for a drivers abstract...if its there, its a possibility...depending on who your insurer is...some don't charge for 1 minor.
jokebell wrote:
Oct 21st, 2009 5:25 pm
I got a speeding ticket in NY for going 12 over the limit on the interstate and if I plead guilty, there's a conviction and 4 points in addition to the fine. I'm wondering if anyone knows if this will affect my Ontario insurance rates.
RIBO LICENCED INSURANCE BROKER(ontario) -OVER 30 YRS OF EXPERIENCE
YOUR BEST INSURANCE IS AN INSURANCE BROKER
All the information provided is for reference purposes only. The actual wordings, conditions and exclusions of your policy will apply.
Sr. Member
User avatar
Jan 8, 2009
784 posts
63 upvotes
GTA
sam1234 wrote:
Oct 16th, 2009 11:07 pm
Exactly based on what type of knowledge or expertise are you basing this evidence on? You don't know what your talking about AT ALL!



Not to a degree, but a reality check is that one careless and one speeding over 16 to 29 km/h will suspend your license. It is common to get multiple tickets at a time.



You really are ignorant if you don't grasp the idea of how demerit points affect your insurance.

Two tickets alone, if not pleaded down, can SUSPEND your license. Sure go ahead and fight them, then when you LOSE in trial, your stuck with the maximum penalties applicable.

You SHOULD care about Demerit Points, especially on the tickets and trials that you have no chance of winning.


Wow, good for you buddy. Calculate life insurance all day along there! :D



You probably want to wash your mouth with soap. The website referred is probably a greater resource to you than you could imagine.

Especially for someone with the likes of your mentality.



Hellooo...there is NO plead guilty TRICK as you make it out to be. You are being offered Pleas for a reason, as a mercy upon you from the justice system.

IF you try to fight every ticket, you will LOSE. Then you will gain more demerit points, then your license is gone!

What your telling people to do is flawed, and you are not an expert in this field, and should not be giving any advise at all!
what a load of crap!

This thread it to explain that demerit points have no impact on your insurance premiums. You could get your licence suspended but a rate impact for a driver with 1 ticket, 0 demerit is the same as 1 ticket, 2 demerit.
Insurance & Financial Advisor

All posts on this forum are for information purpose only and can't replace your policy contract. Please contact your own broker, agent or company before acting on my suggestions. There is more to insurance than just price!
Newbie
Jun 14, 2008
10 posts
ontario
jokebell wrote:
Oct 21st, 2009 5:25 pm
I got a speeding ticket in NY for going 12 over the limit on the interstate and if I plead guilty, there's a conviction and 4 points in addition to the fine. I'm wondering if anyone knows if this will affect my Ontario insurance rates.
Are you an Ontario,Canadian Drivers License holder?

12 over the limit should not produce a ticket with 4 Demerit Points. What exactly were you charged with on your ticket?

Basically, If you are found guilty and you receive the 4 demerit points that can suspend your drivers license. 6+ Demerit Points can get your license suspended in Ontario for G2 drivers, and 9+ Demerit Points for G class holder can suspend your drivers license.

A suspension will definitely increase your insurance rate.

Fight your traffic ticket!
Deal Addict
Sep 2, 2004
1620 posts
46 upvotes
sam1234 I think you have some kind of hidden agenda or bias or hatred or something. Crinkle cut has been giving good info in this thread and you just start attacking him for no reason.

What you don't seem to understand is demerit points come as a result of a conviction. This is what shows up when insurance companies rate drivers. And guess how you get a suspension, convictions! Period. There is no arguing this. The more you try to argue the more you look worse and worse. In fact, I think it's time for you to step out of this thread and stop digging yourself into a bigger hole.

and there's no need for personal insults, if you're not able to carry on a decent debate without lowering yourself like that, you shouldn't be posting.
Member
User avatar
Aug 10, 2008
248 posts
20 upvotes
My 2 cents here, from my personal experience. My insurance company in Alberta said that they have a 3 year window in which they'll forgive one minor conviction, meaning that my premiums won't go up. On the other hand, if I had no convictions or claims during that 3 year window, my premiums will be automatically reduced by 10% in my 4th year on top of any other discounts.

So every conviction, demerit points or not, will delay that 10% discount by so many years, depending on when you get the ticket(s). But they said that if I was a new customer, then my insurance rates will immediately go up by at least 10% for each minor conviction (0-3 points).
[OP]
Deal Addict
May 31, 2009
2623 posts
151 upvotes
sam1234 wrote:
Oct 16th, 2009 11:07 pm
Wow, good for you buddy. Calculate life insurance all day along there! :D
Haha, I guess you don't know what actuaries do, because I work for property casualty insurers, not a life insurer. HAHAAHA
Oh and if you didn't know, a property casualty insurer is the insurance company that sells and issues auto, home and commercial insurance policies. So yes, I deal with the auto insurance regulators of each province where insurance is privatized.


He's just the forum owner of the other site, and is bitter that more ppl go to redflag for discussions than on his own site. Therefore deterring his ability to make revenues from ad sales, since people don't go to his site.

As I stated, the Ticket Combat website is the perfect site to determine whether you can fight your ticket. They teach you how to prove that the officer isn't credible, if there is an opportunity to do so. This is dependant on the disclosure. Also dependant on the weather conditions on the day of your infraction. If it was raining, and you ask the officer, so you had a clear view of my vehicle in the clear weather; and they say yes, you can counter and say but it was raining heavily, and here is the weather report. Then they lose credibility with the judge, since it should have been in his notes about what happened that day, and your ticket gets thrown out. Lots of tricks like that are stated on the website.

You can also cite cases of precedent from that website, where the judge has to deem the same judgment as a prior case if you had the exact same circumstances. You just need to prove that your circumstances/conditions were the same.


Anyhow, there are lots of ways to fight tickets successfully. And not sure who gets 2 tickets and gets their license suspended, you probably are people we want off the roads anyways. Those must be some ridiculous tickets to cause a license suspension, since demerit points are cleared after 2 years, combined with the fact that police officers often write tickets with leniency. Police officers tend to have leniency when issuing tickets. Not charging for every infraction, and reducing the severity of each transaction, saying you were speeding by 10 over instead of the actual 20 over. But they do document the initial charges in their notepads, which you will find out when you order the disclosure. This shows to the judge that they were lenient with you, and that the charges being enforced upon you are not nearly as severe as they could be.

Your example of speeding and careless driving causing a suspension, you failed to mention that only applies to G1 and G2 drivers. If you attend the meeting for drivers with a G license, just by attending you wont get a suspension. Like I said, demerit points only stay on your record for 2 yrs.

I figured out why he's so upset now. When you visit his website, you will find that it is owned or sponsored by X-Copper. Therefore he is upset that we found out that we can fight tickets ourselves without enlisting their services.

Oh well, I did contact X-Copper about fighting my not wearing a seatbelt infraction, and they quoted me $300. I said will i at least get a reduced fine or demerit points, they said no guarantee. I then said if I have to pay a fine, is it included in my $300? They said no. So I could be on the hook for $410, plus the demerit points.

In the end I represented myself, pleaded guilty for a reduced fine and points, paid $50, and got 0 points. I only pleaded guilty because I ordered the disclosure and it was pretty detailed and accurate with little points of contention. My jacket was not the same color as the seatbelt as stated in the disclosure, and my seatbelt worked as the officer made me put it on when pulled over, which is also stated in the disclosure.

Would I ever use X-Copper? Probably only in the case where I was involved in an at fault accident, and faced numerous convictions. But not for a minor one, or 2 minors.


Another example of the value of Ticket Combat. My friend successfully fought his speeding ticket based on the advice on their website. He ordered the report stating the latest date of calibration on the radar gun in question, as well as asked about the maintenance procedure involved with the gun. He also asked the police prior to the trial for the manufacturer's manual regarding the radar gun, which explicitly states the procedures that must occur to ensure 100% accuracy. Since when on the stand the officer did not know the exact procedures used to maintain the gun and if those procedures were followed, the ticket was thrown out since the accuracy of the gun could have been impaired.

My advice is go to a traffic court trial, and see what these ticket fighting companies do versus what others do. They don't do anything differently in my opinion. More and more people representing themselves are learning the system and how to defend themselves successfully.

I see people with multiple convictions go to the prosecutor and say I'll plead guilty to the lesser charge if you throw away the higher one completely. They plead guilty to speeding 19km over, and get the careless driving thrown out entirely. Also get a reduced fine and reduced points for the speeding charge, since they plead guilty.
Deal Addict
Oct 4, 2009
1541 posts
3 upvotes
You guys are arguing over absolutely nothing. Demerit points are immaterial.. They do go by the offence. If the charge is not dismissed, it goes on your driving record. They're rated by minor and major. They do rate minor and major by the points you get on your license, but not by the points YOU were assessed for the offence. In other words, if your violation was a three point offence, even if you go to Court and get the points reduced you're STILL assessed as a "three point offence" which can be a minor or major on your insurance.

This is why I have a deadly effective paralegal on my "team". When I get a ticket, which fortunately isn't very often, he gets it thrown out. I have no idea how he does it and I don't care, but they vanish. That is the ONLY way to avoid a hit on your insurance premiums.
Newbie
Sep 25, 2006
59 posts
11 upvotes
Ottawa
I just want to say thanks for the very good information posted here.

Here is my short story:

- Got pulled over recently on 416 highway for doing 135 km/h (100 km/h limit)
- I was passing two cars on my right.
- He lowered the speed to 120 km/h, which equates to $95 and 3 points.
- I'm 28, and I've been driving for approx 10 years
- I've had one accident (my fault) around 7-8 years ago.
- I have never received any driving ticket before

I got caught, and I'm willing to pay the $95, but I was hoping this wouldn't hit me with my insurance company.

Questions:

- Is there anything I can do?
- How much will this conviction affect my rates?
- Will the increase in rates also only stay for 2 years (like the demerit points)?

Thank you.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Aug 11, 2008
6909 posts
391 upvotes
Burlington
Depending on who you are insured with, some don't surcharge for 1 minor whereas some remove the conviction free discount.
Kriis wrote:
Oct 27th, 2009 12:35 pm
I just want to say thanks for the very good information posted here.

Here is my short story:

- Got pulled over recently on 416 highway for doing 135 km/h (100 km/h limit)
- I was passing two cars on my right.
- He lowered the speed to 120 km/h, which equates to $95 and 3 points.
- I'm 28, and I've been driving for approx 10 years
- I've had one accident (my fault) around 7-8 years ago.
- I have never received any driving ticket before

I got caught, and I'm willing to pay the $95, but I was hoping this wouldn't hit me with my insurance company.

Questions:

- Is there anything I can do?
- How much will this conviction affect my rates?
- Will the increase in rates also only stay for 2 years (like the demerit points)?

Thank you.
RIBO LICENCED INSURANCE BROKER(ontario) -OVER 30 YRS OF EXPERIENCE
YOUR BEST INSURANCE IS AN INSURANCE BROKER
All the information provided is for reference purposes only. The actual wordings, conditions and exclusions of your policy will apply.
× < >

Top