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By ditching carbon-tax plans, Ontario's Tories become the Stupid Party again

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  • Feb 18th, 2018 9:20 pm
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Deal Fanatic
Nov 24, 2013
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hugh_da_man wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 3:17 pm
This is factually incorrect. A lot of fiscal conservatives believe in climate change and love carbon taxes. The "left" wing are the people who hate carbon taxes because it's a regressive tax. So they do everything they can to avoid making a real carbon tax while still calling it a "carbon tax". See Alberta and their carbon tax rebates. Carbon taxes should be regressive as the goal is to reduce emissions. If you emit more you should pay more and a real carbon tax would create an incentive for people to decrease their emissions to decrease their tax burden. Decreasing taxes also goes against everything the "left" believes in and so they don't like real carbon taxes.

I think we should have a massive carbon tax and it should be balanced by reductions in income taxes. You'd see emissions crater as it would make financial sense for people to invest in cleaner energy and emission reductions. The people selling you the "carbon tax" of today don't actually care about reducing emissions.
A lot of good points here. Brown's plan to implement the federal carbon tax and reduce income tax, etc. instead was perfect. It's exactly what economists like UofC's Trevor Tombe, or Andrew Leach, or UWO's Mike Moffat recommend. It's a market-oriented solution to the externalities of climate change.

It's a shame the Tory candidates are poised to ditch the best idea they had... it's going to lead to more years of Wynne's cap & trade mess.
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Jul 5, 2005
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Mike15 wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 3:48 pm
A lot of good points here. Brown's plan to implement the federal carbon tax and reduce income tax, etc. instead was perfect. It's exactly what economists like UofC's Trevor Tombe, or Andrew Leach, or UWO's Mike Moffat recommend. It's a market-oriented solution to the externalities of climate change.

It's a shame the Tory candidates are poised to ditch the best idea they had... it's going to lead to more years of Wynne's cap & trade mess.
I think Brown's plan included rebates so it's not what I'm talking about (or most economists). I may be wrong but his claims of the tax being revenue neutral aren't entirely accurate as they still included an element of wealth transfer which is the wrong way to structure carbon taxes if you truly need to reduce emissions.

I'm talking about moving taxes to the point of consumption to penalize consumption. No rebates. Rebates encourage continued consumption.
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Sep 30, 2011
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 9:37 am
The right wingers hate the idea of carbon tax. Creating a new one is not going to work. They dont believe in climate change and they hate taxes.
That is like asking the left to add a pro gun, anti abortion stance in our platform. That is just not going to happen.
You cant force their base to believe in science when they dont. The word conservative itself means to conserve/preserve.[/b] They should actually be the ones leading the charge here. It goes to show you that their base is way out there.


The true carbon tax is to provide benefit for people to conserve not to give government another excuse to rip-off tax payer.
there are plenty of tax added to the fuel, "Since 2004, a portion of the gasoline tax is given to municipalities for public transit."
but it is well known GTA never build an inch of subway, so where the money goes?

with the most wasteful government in the world, it is way better to curb their spending before too late.
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Mar 20, 2009
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napoleonbot wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 3:59 pm
but it is well known GTA never build an inch of subway, so where the money goes?
Do you believe that the already built transit system costs nothing to operate?
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hugh_da_man wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 3:56 pm
I think Brown's plan included rebates so it's not what I'm talking about (or most economists). I may be wrong but his claims of the tax being revenue neutral aren't entirely accurate as they still included an element of wealth transfer which is the wrong way to structure carbon taxes if you truly need to reduce emissions.

I'm talking about moving taxes to the point of consumption to penalize consumption. No rebates. Rebates encourage continued consumption.
Ya, the carbon tax in Alberta is simply a wealth transfer downward. I pay the carbon tax as well as everyone else, and the poorest people are given the largest portion of the rebate; actual consumption has nothing to do with the formula. Carbon taxes are stupid the way they are structured. This whole generic fight against climate change has been stupid too. Instead of generalizing "let's fight climate change" and trying to do it by scattershot, pick an actual issue and deal with it. Is there pollution or disaster of one particular kind? Deal with it.

Lake/river pollution? Deal with it. Littering? Deal with it. Oil spills? Deal with it. Yes, I actually want oil spills to be reduced and eliminated so the best way to do that is to figure out the problem and fix that problem (PS, the solution isn't to get rid of the oil industry). Find an actual problem and fix that problem, then move onto the next problem.

SMART Goals - Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Timely. Anything else is just bullshit.
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hugh_da_man wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 3:56 pm
I think Brown's plan included rebates so it's not what I'm talking about (or most economists). I may be wrong but his claims of the tax being revenue neutral aren't entirely accurate as they still included an element of wealth transfer which is the wrong way to structure carbon taxes if you truly need to reduce emissions.

I'm talking about moving taxes to the point of consumption to penalize consumption. No rebates. Rebates encourage continued consumption.
tax relief according to the "People's Guarantee"
https://www.ontariopc.ca/peoplesguarantee

Patrick Brown and the Ontario PCs will opt in to the federal carbon price backstop.

The federal government has promised that it will “return direct revenues from the carbon price to the jurisdiction of origin,” meaning the province will receive a transfer worth the equivalent of all carbon pricing paid for by Ontario citizens. That money should go back to Ontario families and businesses in the form of tax relief. To ensure that any political party keeps its word, the Auditor General will verify that every single dollar is returned.

Patrick Brown and the Ontario PCs will return 100% of carbon price revenue back to Ontario families and taxpayers in the form of corresponding tax relief, as verified by the Auditor General.
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tk1000 wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 4:13 pm
tax relief according to the "People's Guarantee"
https://www.ontariopc.ca/peoplesguarantee

Patrick Brown and the Ontario PCs will opt in to the federal carbon price backstop.

The federal government has promised that it will “return direct revenues from the carbon price to the jurisdiction of origin,” meaning the province will receive a transfer worth the equivalent of all carbon pricing paid for by Ontario citizens. That money should go back to Ontario families and businesses in the form of tax relief. To ensure that any political party keeps its word, the Auditor General will verify that every single dollar is returned.

Patrick Brown and the Ontario PCs will return 100% of carbon price revenue back to Ontario families and taxpayers in the form of corresponding tax relief, as verified by the Auditor General.
While it’s true the carbon tax would be felt by most Ontarians more than the current cap-and-trade system, Brown’s plan had the benefit – from a conservative perspective – of being largely revenue neutral; that is, much of the money raised would be returned to voters in the form of tax cuts and child-care rebates.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editori ... ction.html

Rebates.
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Nov 24, 2013
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It was a source of funding for these tax cuts,

https://www.ontariopc.ca/change_that_wo ... _taxpayers
THE ONTARIO PCs WILL:
-Increase the Ontario Sales Tax Credit by $100 a person
-Reduce income taxes for the first bracket by 10%
-Reduce income taxes for the middle class tax bracket by 22.5%
I can't find the meat and potatoes document anymore on the PC site, but the general idea was cutting taxes in a revenue neutral manner versus the carbon tax revenue. Increasing the HST rebate was a component of that, and I see your quote on child-care rebates, but proportionally I think the lower personal income tax rates were the bulk of the dollars. This isn't the same as Alberta's means-tested rebate model.
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LeisureSuitL wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 4:12 pm

Find an actual problem and fix that problem, then move onto the next problem.
We've found the actual problem decades ago. We're putting too much CO2 in the atmosphere, along with smaller amounts of other greenhouse gasses, and it's trapping heat and warming the planet. The fix to the problem is to reduce the greenhouse gasses we emit. The way to do it is to tax carbon output.
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smacd wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 5:21 pm
We've found the actual problem decades ago. We're putting too much CO2 in the atmosphere, along with smaller amounts of other greenhouse gasses, and it's trapping heat and warming the planet. The fix to the problem is to reduce the greenhouse gasses we emit. The way to do it is to tax carbon output.
Great. So Canada puts our economy to a dead stop, and none of this gets solved because Canada is carbon negative thanks to our great boreal forest. Our efforts are absolutely meaningless on the scale of the world, which is why I want meaningful targets. We can't control what the world does. China and India are the worst polluters, and murdering our economy won't stop them from it.

Let's find some meaningful and actual solutions to Canada's problems, because currently we are not causing any of the problems with climate change. Maybe we can murder BCs forestry industry to keep all those carbon munching trees around?

What problems does Canada have? Dirty rivers? Fix them. Native reserves currently have decades of boil water advisories, so let's fix that first. Victoria dumps raw sewage into the ocean, so let's fix that. Make measured improvement steps, not shotgun blasts in messy hopes of effecting change.

And anyways, so far, carbon taxes has not influenced my usage because I still have to heat my home and drive to work. I currently drive a low emission vehicle already, so I'm not a polluter (so to speak). Why is every **** liberal's solution to everything a GD tax?

Targeted regulations are much more effective. Saskatchewan introduced a regulation for Benzene, a harmful gas that is a byproduct of oil & gas production. The industry (my company included) created some amazing technology to capture and burn the Benzene off so it doesn't poison the air.

See that? That's a solution to a specific problem and it took only 2 years from start to finish to get that done. If you really wanted to reduce CO2, then you find what the largest source of CO2 is and try to regulate or reduce it. Or you find the source of CO2 that is easiest to solve and fix that one source. I doubt it's cars, it's probably factories...who knows. Find it and fix it. Trying to solve all the world's problems at once is an effective way of solving nothing.
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smacd wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 1:24 am
You do realise that the BC Liberals are the former Social Credit party, the right wing party in the province, don't you?
former being keyword. they're as conservative as much as Santa is a real person. Pro drugs, pro green initiatives, pro heavy taxation. Its not even close enough to be able to even fake being somewhat conservative.
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Jan 6, 2011
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The carbon trade was European attempt to mimic the USD printing press.

The ideal outcome is to strangle developing economies from industrializing i.e. stay as sources of cheap labor and cmdt, meanwhile, charge them expensive "carbon credit" thus prop up the EUR.

The key to the game is to develop clean techs, renewables, conserve and hoard up "credits" to sell for profit. Then 09 hits, the whole thing is backfiring on EU/US now. Trump has to trash it otherwise he'd net short expensive carbon credits.

Instead of being good for the environment, it's becoming the new trade barrier and global terrorism. I don't blame CDN govt for implementing, but they lacked overall coordination between the silos such that we will experience chronic severe pain before the promised climactic pleasure arrive.

Further, the Japanese 3/11 Tohoku happened, otherwise nuclear was part of the strategy. Your hydro bill doubled every 7yrs and will continue to double because of this.

I wonder if anyone would still be optimistic about their standard of living after the implementations are in full swing.
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Mar 31, 2008
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Carbon tax = slush fund.

Sorry Libs. It's not going through this time around. But it likely will in our lifetime since the idea will get implemented when the next Liberal govt gets elected.
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Sep 22, 2013
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Feb 14th, 2018 9:37 am
The right wingers hate the idea of carbon tax. Creating a new one is not going to work. They dont believe in climate change and they hate taxes.

That is like asking the left to add a pro gun, anti abortion stance in our platform. That is just not going to happen.

You cant force their base to believe in science when they dont. The word conservative itself means to conserve/preserve.] They should actually be the ones leading the charge here. It goes to show you that their base is way out there.
Having a carbon tax and believing in climate change are two separate things. You know that right?

I would like you to provide ANY evidence that Ontario having a carbon tax would have any benefit on the environment.

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