Automotive

Do japanese cars like toyota and honda really hold up to their name in terms of reliability?

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 7th, 2018 2:15 pm
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CaptSmethwick wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 9:21 pm
1 sec and .05g? Where do I sign up??

I say vive la difference. EVERY vehicle is a compromise on a spectrum of things - speed, handling, comfort, design, safety, exclusivity, sound system, cargo/people capacity, reliability, price, number of cupholders, etc. There is no vehicle that excels in each and every one of these and there is no "best" vehicle or brand. If you think there is one, then buy it.
Yep youre right. People should go just and buy what fits them at the moment. People should forget about brand loyalty. I go where I get the most joy/bang for my money. With now crazy long financing available 96+ 108 months available any cars are going to last 10 years. 08-09 cars are 10 yo and most of them are on the road I mean you don't see them at the U-Pull places.
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alanbrenton wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 6:11 pm
What does the extra 1 sec and .05g buy you? No excuse to be less reliable because one used newer technology. They wanted to put in new technology, no one forced them. Car ownership is about total cost of ownership for majority of people who drive their cars into the ground.
But you are comparing calculator to a modern super computer and saying that calculators are more reliable because they are simpler. This is not fair comparison at all. More sensors and more technology equals more things to go wrong, and this is not only applies to cars, it is general rule. Do you still use Nokia flip phone?? No, you use smartphone which is not as reliable as your Nokia was, but it provides you with many more features which you would never had with Nokia. Same thing with cars.
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romsan04 wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 10:06 pm
But you are comparing calculator to a modern super computer and saying that calculators are more reliable because they are simpler. This is not fair comparison at all. More sensors and more technology equals more things to go wrong, and this is not only applies to cars, it is general rule. Do you still use Nokia flip phone?? No, you use smartphone which is not as reliable as your Nokia was, but it provides you with many more features which you would never had with Nokia. Same thing with cars.
No. You are comparing scientific calculators with a few extra functions and decimal places.

If you are going to cite an example, you might as well use something with more mechanical points that can break down. With calculators, there are no moving parts to break down so having a more high tech calculator doesn't mean less reliability.

What sensors and technology are you talking about? Can you name a few that your VW has that the 2018 Honda Accord Touring doesn't? Does your VW have ACC with low speed follow? All you've got going for your VW is 10% more fun factor and maybe slightly better gas mileage because of the weight.

What you are saying is not the general rule, it's your own made up rule and that's what the unreliable car makers would like you to think -- that everything made today is disposable. With Moore's Law, until lately, the number of transistors in a CPU has been doubling very 18 months (or was 12 or 24 months) , CPU quality hasn't tanked as a result.

You are the best target customer for unreliable vehicles. You will just swallow all the costs for the sake of the Model Year number of your car. And then you make up perceived VW advantages without naming them. Even the Mazda Miata is going to be more fun to drive than your VW likely with fewer issues down the road. Let's just be realistic and not generalized over everything is getting more complex thus less reliable. Laptops, desktops, a lot of electronic equipment have become more reliable over time. Your VW hasn't and it's VW's way of making you go for the next all new model.

No way is a Honda/Toyota like a flip cellphone compared to your VW a smartphone. The only reason I see VW as being smart is because the driver in your case is less smart.

I have nothing against VW but if you were going to compare reliability, at least you could have used Audi or Porsche, part of the VW, but divisions that have better overall reliability.
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WinterSleep wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 2:31 am
What does that have to do with anything? I guess when you run out of counter-arguments personal attacks are all that's left. It's got 300k and I am bored of it now. So couldn't care less.
You're right, lets just all treat our cars the way you do. I mean you seem to be doing it right. Forget owners manuals and manufacturer recommendations. We should all be straight up negligent with our car because that's the best way to maintain it, right? Face With Tears Of Joy
You're hell-bent on two weak arguments that
1) German cars are very unreliable and less so than any typical manufacturer
2) Changing your oil more frequently to adjust for differences in driving style and aggressiveness is a waste of money.
Number 1 is a pretty common misconception, but Number 2 is just laughable to the point where I wonder why I even respond to your posts given your blatantly obvious lack of knowledge.
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WinterSleep wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 2:31 am
What does that have to do with anything? I guess when you run out of counter-arguments personal attacks are all that's left. It's got 300k and I am bored of it now. So couldn't care less.
Honestly, if you consider your car nothing more than an appliance and view maintenance as a nuisance that's your prerogative. The point remains, not everyone views their car as an appliance. There are some people who enjoy driving and are willing to sacrifice a bit of reliability for a more engaging ride. Given the choice between a Toyota Corolla and a Audi S3 I'd take the S3 every time, even if it isn't going to be quite as reliable as the Corolla. That being said, the hyper-exaggeration about poor reliability when it comes to German vehicles simply gets a bit tiring.
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alanbrenton wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 10:34 pm
No. You are comparing scientific calculators with a few extra functions and decimal places.

If you are going to cite an example, you might as well use something with more mechanical points that can break down. With calculators, there are no moving parts to break down so having a more high tech calculator doesn't mean less reliability.

What sensors and technology are you talking about? Can you name a few that your VW has that the 2018 Honda Accord Touring doesn't? Does your VW have ACC with low speed follow? All you've got going for your VW is 10% more fun factor and maybe slightly better gas mileage because of the weight.

What you are saying is not the general rule, it's your own made up rule and that's what the unreliable car makers would like you to think -- that everything made today is disposable. With Moore's Law, until lately, the number of transistors in a CPU has been doubling very 18 months (or was 12 or 24 months) , CPU quality hasn't tanked as a result.

You are the best target customer for unreliable vehicles. You will just swallow all the costs for the sake of the Model Year number of your car. And then you make up perceived VW advantages without naming them. Even the Mazda Miata is going to be more fun to drive than your VW likely with fewer issues down the road. Let's just be realistic and not generalized over everything is getting more complex thus less reliable. Laptops, desktops, a lot of electronic equipment have become more reliable over time. Your VW hasn't and it's VW's way of making you go for the next all new model.

No way is a Honda/Toyota like a flip cellphone compared to your VW a smartphone. The only reason I see VW as being smart is because the driver in your case is less smart.

I have nothing against VW but if you were going to compare reliability, at least you could have used Audi or Porsche, part of the VW, but divisions that have better overall reliability.
Totally agree.

The notion that VW is naturally less reliable because it packs more advanced technology is a completely baseless belief. The very idea that more technology equates to lower reliability, in of itself, is a totally ludicrous belief. More technology, and newer technology, should lead to higher reliability, not lower. The only reason for a car to have lower reliability is by cutting corners in manufacturing and component quality. The complexity of a product and its reliability are totally separate and independent metrics. There is no inverse correlation.

You can compare a bicycle to a motorcycle. A bicycle's chain can easily fall off the spool, while a motorcycle's chain virtually never derails. The motorcycle, despite being an ultra complex version of a bicycle, has a much more reliable chain mechanism. A bicycle is as simple as it gets, and yet it fails all the time. If you believe more complexity leads to more failures, then you'd think that a motorcycle's chain would pop off the spool every other day.

Also, the very idea that a VW is technologically superior to a Honda is laughable to begin with. Only a German fanboy would say something absurd like that. VW is to Honda what a Nokia flip phone is to a smartphone? That has to be one of the most ridiculous things anyone has said, ever.
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greybrick wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 1:33 am
Honestly, if you consider your car nothing more than an appliance and view maintenance as a nuisance that's your prerogative. The point remains, not everyone views their car as an appliance. There are some people who enjoy driving and are willing to sacrifice a bit of reliability for a more engaging ride. Given the choice between a Toyota Corolla and a Audi S3 I'd take the S3 every time, even if it isn't going to be quite as reliable as the Corolla. That being said, the hyper-exaggeration about poor reliability when it comes to German vehicles simply gets a bit tiring.
I agree. If you are cognizant of the fact that it's less reliable but you are OK with it, then we are on the same page. Heck, I've thought about eventually getting a Mustang or something even though it's not at all practical or reliable. But when people (like the one above) argue that it's "German Engineering" and it's better design, and that it's just as reliable - well that's where they are being ignorant about the facts.

But you are admitting these cars are less reliable, though nonetheless have other aspects that make them a good choice. I agree with that 100%, and some people will choose power/looks over reliability, and all the power to them.
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rsang39 wrote:
Jan 23rd, 2018 11:46 pm
You're right, lets just all treat our cars the way you do. I mean you seem to be doing it right. Forget owners manuals and manufacturer recommendations. We should all be straight up negligent with our car because that's the best way to maintain it, right? Face With Tears Of Joy
You're hell-bent on two weak arguments that
1) German cars are very unreliable and less so than any typical manufacturer
2) Changing your oil more frequently to adjust for differences in driving style and aggressiveness is a waste of money.
Number 1 is a pretty common misconception, but Number 2 is just laughable to the point where I wonder why I even respond to your posts given your blatantly obvious lack of knowledge.
What the hell are you talking about? I clearly said you must follow the owner manual recommendations to the T. What you were arguing was you don't agree with the owner manual, and think doing the oil change twice as frequently will make your car more reliable. As though you know more than the engineers who designed the car in the first place.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?
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greybrick wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 1:33 am
Honestly, if you consider your car nothing more than an appliance and view maintenance as a nuisance that's your prerogative. The point remains, not everyone views their car as an appliance. There are some people who enjoy driving and are willing to sacrifice a bit of reliability for a more engaging ride. Given the choice between a Toyota Corolla and a Audi S3 I'd take the S3 every time, even if it isn't going to be quite as reliable as the Corolla. That being said, the hyper-exaggeration about poor reliability when it comes to German vehicles simply gets a bit tiring.
I concur with most of what you said but having joined ClubLexus, DriveAccord, CivicX and other forums, there are really anecdotal evidences of people moving back to Japanese brands after getting burned owning Germans. There are not a lot of them but I do read it from time to time.

There are of course a few members there I've seen who have not experienced any issues with their German cars.

In terms of engaging drive, the average Japanese will definitely lage the average German car but whenever i read the Lexus IS 350 reviews, majority of the complain is the outdated engine / lower HP and maybe the front fascia design. I have not seen anyone suggest it drives like $hit because I remember reading on Car and Driver a few years ago that it handled second best after the Cadillac ATS.
Okay, it was first in 2013 but it's five years later today: https://www.caranddriver.com/comparison ... rison-test

Even Lexus is figuring out it has to start targeting the younger demographics but not sure what the price of entry is , hopefully not at the LC level, haha:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/lexus-hu ... customers/

My brother and BIL and even my father now has at least one Audi and they like their cars so much but except for my father, the other two keep trading in their cars for newer and more full-featured model so I can asked them their long term experience with the brand. Their friend who owns Porsche and Audi dealerships is a genuine friend who gives them really great discounts on the cars and I believe also on the maintenance/repairs.

I am living proof of the reliability curse that plagues Honda and Toyota vehicles especially once they hit mid model cycles

2002 Civic DX 5MT - bought used, very few issues and I'm just doing oil changes and filter changes
2011 Accord couple 5 AT (MMC) - bought new, issues were recall on engine ECU to fix carbon deposit buildup, broken passenger seat backrest beam, trunk squeaky, premature brake rotor warping (refinished at 20k, replaced with my centric rotors and akebono brake pads at 105k because of the slight vibration when braking at higher speed) and now the VTC actuator grind at cold starts that my 8-year extended warranty should cover. My wife didn't seem to mind these out of the ordinary noises!
2016 RAV4H (MMC) - no issues at all except for liftgate ECU replacement because for some the liftgate gets stuck ajar. I checked truedelta and majority of the complain was on the liftgate and most others were one offs (e.g. lugnut broke, infotainment sucks -- it does suck but it's the least of my problems).

The Accord is the most engaging to drive among the three even if it is a boat and people on DriveAccord confirmed the A4 FWD handily beats the Accord in the handling department but not sure how I can push the car to is 80% limit on the street to really feel the difference. Mine is pure stock and it's pretty good on bends at 110 km/h.

I am definitely going to consider a few German BEVs that are coming though especially the 4 Series GC if ever it really comes in all electric. I think they are going to be cheaper to own than a Tesla with no RIght to Repair and majority of the complaints with BMW are on its 4 or 6 cylinder turbocharged engines. I was researching on the 2 Series and found out about the engine issues and 7 year / 70k miles extended warranty for the engine timing chain failures, likely due to 24k km OCI.
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I got a motorcycle last summer, and I gotta say, it's probably more "fun and engaging" than any of these entry level German cars. Even though it's only a 250cc starter bike, the acceleration and road feel is simply unmatched by any car I've been in. Compared to my bike, every car that I can afford is beyond boring. Statements like a Mazda3 being more fun to drive than a Civic are a complete wash to me. Neither are even in the same ballpark as a lowly 250cc bike when it comes to 0-60 km/h acceleration, which is pretty much all that matters in city driving.

My car is just an appliance for getting groceries or commuting to work in winter. Getting a car that's 10% more fun doesn't really move the needle.
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board123 wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 11:40 am
I got a motorcycle last summer, and I gotta say, it's probably more "fun and engaging" than any of these entry level German cars. Even though it's only a 250cc starter bike, the acceleration and road feel is simply unmatched by any car I've been in. Compared to my bike, every car that I can afford is beyond boring. Statements like a Mazda3 being more fun to drive than a Civic are a complete wash to me. Neither are even in the same ballpark as a lowly 250cc bike when it comes to 0-60 km/h acceleration, which is pretty much all that matters in city driving.

My car is just an appliance for getting groceries or commuting to work in winter. Getting a car that's 10% more fun doesn't really move the needle.
Certainly no comparison to sport bikes, but also no comparison the risk of injury/death. Sporty cars are a good compromise for many people.
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engineered wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 11:56 am
Certainly no comparison to sport bikes, but also no comparison the risk of injury/death. Sporty cars are a good compromise for many people.
I'm certainly not contending that, especially riding in the GTA. I'm just saying that you take on a new perspective on Mazda vs Honda vs Toyota arguments after getting accustomed to the road experience of a motorcycle.
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board123 wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 12:05 pm
I'm certainly not contending that, especially riding in the GTA. I'm just saying that you take on a new perspective on Mazda vs Honda vs Toyota arguments after getting accustomed to the road experience of a motorcycle.
Yep. And I'm sure wing suit sky divers think motorcycles are lame. It's all relative.
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engineered wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 12:09 pm
Yep. And I'm sure wing suit sky divers think motorcycles are lame. It's all relative.
I get what you're trying to say, but they're not exactly relatable. Sky diving or any other extreme sport is not a viable mode of transportation. You can't sky dive your way to work unless your job is sky diving.
Last edited by board123 on Jan 24th, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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board123 wrote:
Jan 24th, 2018 1:47 am
Totally agree.

The notion that VW is naturally less reliable because it packs more advanced technology is a completely baseless belief. The very idea that more technology equates to lower reliability, in of itself, is a totally ludicrous belief. More technology, and newer technology, should lead to higher reliability, not lower. The only reason for a car to have lower reliability is by cutting corners in manufacturing and component quality. The complexity of a product and its reliability are totally separate and independent metrics. There is no inverse correlation.

You can compare a bicycle to a motorcycle. A bicycle's chain can easily fall off the spool, while a motorcycle's chain virtually never derails. The motorcycle, despite being an ultra complex version of a bicycle, has a much more reliable chain mechanism. A bicycle is as simple as it gets, and yet it fails all the time. If you believe more complexity leads to more failures, then you'd think that a motorcycle's chain would pop off the spool every other day.

Also, the very idea that a VW is technologically superior to a Honda is laughable to begin with. Only a German fanboy would say something absurd like that. VW is to Honda what a Nokia flip phone is to a smartphone? That has to be one of the most ridiculous things anyone has said, ever.
I only picked VW GTI as for comparison. I do not own one. People who drive Corollas/Camrys/Civic/Accord are the ones who compare their cars to BMW/AUDI/Mercedes lol. Of course they are more technologically advanced over the simple Asian brands. Just go and test drive any of German cars and you will feel right away the difference. I have owned both Asian and German cars and speaking from my experience as well. Fan boys are dumb, they would eat any BS to justify owning outdated product....

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