Automotive

Everything about EVs!

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Moderator
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Sep 21, 2004
11413 posts
7186 upvotes
Calgary
I cleaned up the thread a bit. It was getting annoying.
Deal Fanatic
Nov 24, 2013
6479 posts
3344 upvotes
Kingston, ON
seafish wrote: And someone already told you, but electricity price should include delivery as you pay per kWh for it too. (add around 4 cents to your amount)
Marginal delivery charges aren't 4c/kWh, because a significant and growing portion is fixed rather than variable,
https://www.hydroone.com/rates-and-bill ... tion-rates

This is going to vary depending on where you live and who your utility is, so you can play around with the calculator.
https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-protection/ ... calculator
I'm "low density" (rural) so I have a longer phase-in to fixed, and even for me, going from 700kWh to 900kWh (enough to drive 1,000km in an EV consuming 200Wh/km) would take me from $53.68 in Delivery+Regulatory to $58.24. That's $0.0228/kWh. Marginal cost per off-peak kWh to me, all-in with 5% GST, is thus $0.0922/kWh.

9.22 cents all-in. That's me though. Changing the utility or class on the calculator changes that amount.
Deal Fanatic
Aug 3, 2008
5408 posts
11430 upvotes
Ottawa
Mike15 wrote: Marginal delivery charges aren't 4c/kWh, because a significant and growing portion is fixed rather than variable,
https://www.hydroone.com/rates-and-bill ... tion-rates

This is going to vary depending on where you live and who your utility is, so you can play around with the calculator.
https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-protection/ ... calculator
I'm "low density" (rural) so I have a longer phase-in to fixed, and even for me, going from 700kWh to 900kWh (enough to drive 1,000km in an EV consuming 200Wh/km) would take me from $53.68 in Delivery+Regulatory to $58.24. That's $0.0228/kWh. Marginal cost per off-peak kWh to me, all-in with 5% GST, is thus $0.0922/kWh.

9.22 cents all-in. That's me though. Changing the utility or class on the calculator changes that amount.
Pretty much same for me 9.27 cents, still ~40% more than 6.5 cents in his spreadsheet. I believe last time I checked there about a year ago it was around 10.5 cents all in. Was something changed in delivery charges calculation recently?
Deal Fanatic
Nov 24, 2013
6479 posts
3344 upvotes
Kingston, ON
seafish wrote: Pretty much same for me 9.27 cents, still ~40% more than 6.5 cents in his spreadsheet. I believe last time I checked there about a year ago it was around 10.5 cents all in. Was something changed in delivery charges calculation recently?
Delivery is phasing over time to be less variable and more fixed. Which makes sense; the lines need roughly the same maintenance work whether you're taking 500kWh over them or 1,500kWh.

I don't know when exactly in each year the changes have been occurring though. January bill? But if it's been a year since you last mathed it out, it makes sense it would be lower now.
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39339 posts
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Winnipeg
here in winnipeg the rates is about 8 cents for residential and 4.3 cents for commercial, but with commercial you have to pay demand charges.
Deal Guru
May 9, 2007
14883 posts
4842 upvotes
Nanaimo, BC
b166er1337 wrote: I cleaned up the thread a bit. It was getting annoying.
Thank you.
Global warming will be exceeded during the 21st century unless deep reductions in carbon dioxide (CO2) and other greenhouse gas emissions occur (United Nations IPCC Report 2021)

Every disaster film starts with scientists being ignored
Deal Guru
Sep 1, 2004
12900 posts
13096 upvotes
Mike15 wrote: Delivery is phasing over time to be less variable and more fixed. Which makes sense; the lines need roughly the same maintenance work whether you're taking 500kWh over them or 1,500kWh.
Not 100% true. If there is new peak demand, new hardware is needed to handle it. Depends on how your province's *ESO handles it, they will have to either absorb the cost by government or pass it down to consumer 1 way or another.
Deal Fanatic
Nov 24, 2013
6479 posts
3344 upvotes
Kingston, ON
Xtrema wrote: Not 100% true. If there is new peak demand, new hardware is needed to handle it. Depends on how your province's *ESO handles it, they will have to either absorb the cost by government or pass it down to consumer 1 way or another.
"Roughly."

In Ontario as a whole, peak demand was over a decade ago. There's only one day this decade in the top 20. Yes, locally there'd be new substations & equipment and all needed commensurate with new construction, but it appears ToU pricing has been successful in shifting load to off-peak times. Total annual demand has declined too, of course.

http://www.ieso.ca/en/Power-Data/Demand ... cal-Demand
Deal Fanatic
Jul 4, 2004
7430 posts
4677 upvotes
Ottawa
Martin (deal addict) wrote: I bought one of the first Camry Hybrids in 2006 and have had lots of issues mainly down to the new model/platform. There is always a risk with a brand new model and brand new technology introduced by the manufacturer. In the case of the Pacifica Hybrid it is a new model with a new PHEV powertrain plus lots of new tech over outgoing Town ad Country. Will probably take years to iron out any rogue issues.
My issue is mostly the severity of the issue and the signs that it's not getting resolved. There are several reports of owners with 1 year old, 1 month old or even 1 week old cars getting in to drive and all you get is a dead are or generic error message and you have to be towed to a garage and then get a rental car for days or weeks or months. And this appears to be happening with 2019s just as it did with 2017s although it doesn't seem to get worse with time. A lot of new cars have some small issues but I don't know how often new cars leave you stranded and in need of towing.

Again, most owners are fine and the car is great but I feel that it's just too frequent for the ones with issues. I've never seen numbers but I suspect that in 3 years and a few thousand cars sold, more PacHys have had to be towed to a garage because of some catastrophic system failure than Toyotas has had their hybrid cars suffer catastrophic failure (probably millions sold over 20 or so years). Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone with a Prius or CamryHy or HiHy or another other Toyota or Lexus hybrid car get in and not have the car work with the exception of cars with old / dead batteries (not a problem with the system, just an eventual failure of the 12V battery (which is to be expected)).
Sr. Member
Nov 18, 2004
690 posts
274 upvotes
Toronto
Doubling the electricity rate to $0.13 increases the TCO per KM by almost 0.01 for EV and PHEV to a slightly lesser extent. Well beyond the practical precision of this exercise. With regard to your mileage, I provided a sensitivity table to show how the 'EV premium' decreases as you drive more.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 8, 2009
6237 posts
4776 upvotes
Ontario
michelb wrote: My issue is mostly the severity of the issue and the signs that it's not getting resolved. There are several reports of owners with 1 year old, 1 month old or even 1 week old cars getting in to drive and all you get is a dead are or generic error message and you have to be towed to a garage and then get a rental car for days or weeks or months. And this appears to be happening with 2019s just as it did with 2017s although it doesn't seem to get worse with time. A lot of new cars have some small issues but I don't know how often new cars leave you stranded and in need of towing.

Again, most owners are fine and the car is great but I feel that it's just too frequent for the ones with issues. I've never seen numbers but I suspect that in 3 years and a few thousand cars sold, more PacHys have had to be towed to a garage because of some catastrophic system failure than Toyotas has had their hybrid cars suffer catastrophic failure (probably millions sold over 20 or so years). Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone with a Prius or CamryHy or HiHy or another other Toyota or Lexus hybrid car get in and not have the car work with the exception of cars with old / dead batteries (not a problem with the system, just an eventual failure of the 12V battery (which is to be expected)).
When a computer is in control it only takes a rogue sensor to send everything south. Look at Boeing Max 8. Dealerships are often ill equipped to diagnose hardware/software problems.

Its the way the industry is going with complex technology - if it works great but if it fails everyone is scratching their heads

Our Camry Hybrid was towed due to early electric steering rack failure. Now electric racks are even on ICE models and teething problems are ironed out. However it took the needs of hybrids to develop the first ones and guinea pigs like me to probe any weaknesses over time. Our rack was replaced twice.
Member
Mar 11, 2019
306 posts
177 upvotes
barold wrote: Added a comparison to PHEV to my calculation and modified the calc to breakdown estimated demand between 'short trips' (i.e. weekday commute) and long trips (weekend mileage). In reality we don't always drive up north every weekend so more of our 'weekend' mileage could be served by battery only on a PHEV but this was a simple way to break it down in my mind.

The diff between EV and ICE is not that great in my opinion. For the example below, the for the EV to be equal to the ICE in TCO from a dollar perspective would be an extra $4,700 of options (which wouldn't be hard) on you ICE you'll be at the same TCO. Interestingly the PHEV option breaks even to ICE very quickly (not many KM). What is astounding though is the amount of carbon you'd save from ICE. (7,066kg for ICE vs 106kg for EV vs 3,361kg for the PHEV).
Yes, the difference between a Hybrid and the Plug in hybrids are not the great. I thought you were comparing to a non hybrid ICE. Still it depends on your distances, for me the difference between EV vs HV in my prius is a savings of 12.42 a week, or 645.84 a year based on 300 km a week. If I were to have bought the Hybrid only model it would have been 2500 less. 4 years to make that up, without the 2500 ontario rebate it would be 8. Explain how you came up with the carbon savings for HV vs PHEV?
Sr. Member
Nov 18, 2004
690 posts
274 upvotes
Toronto
The three vehicles were the Niro (ICE) Niro EV and Niro PHEV. The carbon savings we the carbon emissions from the energy used. For the PHEV, I used the 42km autonomy (in reality most people will have to charge before exactly 42km) and the energy usage from charging the PHEV and if you ended driving more, ie on the weekend, the gas used for the remaining KM. the EV was pure electricity carbon and ICE was carbon from gas.
Member
Mar 11, 2019
306 posts
177 upvotes
barold wrote: The three vehicles were the Niro (ICE) Niro EV and Niro PHEV. The carbon savings we the carbon emissions from the energy used. For the PHEV, I used the 42km autonomy (in reality most people will have to charge before exactly 42km) and the energy usage from charging the PHEV and if you ended driving more, ie on the weekend, the gas used for the remaining KM. the EV was pure electricity carbon and ICE was carbon from gas.
Via gridwatch ontario is 0.019 Kg CO2 equivalent per kWh as of now. how did you get the 0.008 ?
not sure if the gasoline burned is a CO2e or a CO2 only per L ?
Member
Mar 11, 2019
306 posts
177 upvotes
barold wrote: Not in the business so unsure what a CO2e is but here are my sources. I've updated to 14.26g per kWh average.

https://canadianenergyissues.com/ontario-power-stats/
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan ... et_6_e.pdf
Its an equivalent of combined greenhouse gas emmisons.

https://live.gridwatch.ca/carbon-emissions.html

not sure what the emmisons in ontario off peak are or the average.

https://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html

The number you have for gasoline looks pretty close to what the EPA has for C02e.
Deal Guru
May 9, 2007
14883 posts
4842 upvotes
Nanaimo, BC
Zero emission vehicles are quickly gaining traction in B.C. — sales went from four per cent of new cars last year to six per cent in the first quarter of 2019 — but the provincial government is aiming for much more than that.

The Zero-Emission Vehicles Act (ZEVA), passed on Wednesday, sets a target of 10 per cent of all new light-duty cars and trucks sold in B.C. to be zero emission by 2025. By 2040, they'll all need to be emission free.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5155274

Note that the 50% increase was in the first quarter. Before the federal incentives had even been announced. Q2 ought to be even greater growth.
Global warming will be exceeded during the 21st century unless deep reductions in carbon dioxide (CO2) and other greenhouse gas emissions occur (United Nations IPCC Report 2021)

Every disaster film starts with scientists being ignored
Deal Addict
User avatar
Nov 18, 2006
3581 posts
2795 upvotes
Pothole city
QC(57) and BC(37) make for 94% of all Federal incentive claims since may 1st.

Your text to link here...
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In the EV world, range is just an expensive option!
Range anxiety is an expensive problem...
Sr. Member
Aug 13, 2011
770 posts
371 upvotes
Scarborough southwes…
Bb0231 wrote: Have you tried it (or a gas engine Smart)??
Not yet. Figured it was a good choice for the short commute where speed limit is 40km/h for 95% of the route.
Is there anything I should know?
Deal Fanatic
Aug 3, 2008
5408 posts
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Ottawa
typer100 wrote: QC(57) and BC(37) make for 94% of all Federal incentive claims since may 1st.

Your text to link here...
So ~2000 for QC, ~1300 for BC and 176 for ON.
Checking StatCan we see that in May:
QC sells around 52k vehicles (22k passenger) total, so 3.8% (9%) of them that got EV rebate.
BC sells around 23k vehicles (8k passenger) total, so 5.6% (16.25%) of them that got EV rebate.
ON sells around 92k vehicles (28k passenger) total, so 0.2% (0.6%) of them that got EV rebate.

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