Automotive

Exclude new driver from auto insurance

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Sr. Member
Sep 18, 2004
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And speaking of the supposedly cushy accident benefits, here is an excerpt of what drivers can expect if they actually need to collect on those benefits:
FSCO ruling A09-000167 wrote: Mr. C. underwent a very aggressive and at times inappropriate cross-examination. Inappropriate
in that, counsel for Coachman screamed some of his questions at Mr. C. with the clear intention,
in my view, of intimidating Mr. C. As well, counsel glared intensely while firing off questions at
a very rapid pace. In addition, counsel unnecessarily and redundantly repeated questions that
already had been answered. Objections to counsel’s behaviour were consistently ignored.
...
Mrs. C.’s underwent an aggressive cross-examination. Her cross-examination, on three separate
afternoons, was double if not triple the time that Coachman’s counsel spent on cross-examining
Mr. C. Mrs. C. responded to questions in a detailed and non-evasive manner. Nevertheless, she
was repetitively asked the same questions in a tone and manner, which in my view, was meant to
be intimidating. She broke down crying several times. Counsel for Coachman ignored any
direction to curtail his repetitive questioning.
I know you don't like the Toronto Sun, so here is a link to the original FSCO ruling:
http://www.fairassociation.ca/wp-conten ... 000167.pdf
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Jun 19, 2001
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Tell the kid when hes 18 you'll get him a car sharing membership for $50~ a year, which will make him insured for experience purposes. Spend the money you'd pay to add him on your policy elsewhere
If you aren't willing to take small losses, then you will take big losses. This is my guarantee. -
Mark Minervini
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Nov 2, 2014
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Scarborough, ON
molo wrote: Wow, a lot has happened here since I've been away. As much as I like to argue on the internet, I'm not sure I have time to get to all of the misinformation, twisted reasoning, and self-serving, skewed logic. But here are the broad strokes.


What sparked this broader discussion (sorry OP for the thread jack) were these two quotes, both from people employed in the insurance industry (unless you'd like to refute that RobertSmalls008 -- still waiting for that?), blaming parents for being cheap for balking at paying the highest rates in the country by at least 45%:


After that, it has been shown by myself and others with various supporting sources that there is credible data that Ontarians are paying unreasonably high insurance premiums. According to the insurance company employees in this thread, all of these sources are not credible.

To summarize, insurance company advocates in this thread have claimed:
  • Consumers Association of Canada is not credible
  • The Globe and Mail is not credible
  • Toronto Sun is not credible
  • personal injury lawyers are not credible
  • York University is not credible
On the other hand, a publication owned by the insurance industry is credible. In the eyes of RobertSmalls008, it seems "credible" means "agrees with my point of view" as opposed to what it means for everyone else.

What is important to note is that, although credibility has been questioned at every turn, not a single concrete fact has been disputed. Let's take the Toronto Sun article and the knee-jerk attack on credibility:

OK professor, specifically which facts from that article are you disputing, and based on what evidence? To make it easier for you, here is a summary (not exhaustive) of what the article claims:

So, specifically which of these facts are wrong (or were wrong in 2011 when the article was written)? If none are wrong, on what basis do you dispute the credibility of the article?


Specifically why they were excluded was addressed openly in the paper, and your response with yet more vague accusations unsupported by facts is no more convincing than it was any of the other times when you've used that approach.
Fine, I'll give you one more.

I don't feel the need to discuss personal information on RFD, if you choose to tell the public the industry you work in, feel free.

Do you agree that in Ontario we have the highest claim cost per vehicle insured?

Regarding the Toronto Sun article, I am disputing the fact Ontario has the lowest minor injury benefits in Canada.

As early stated, take a look at the accident benefit package the Ontario auto policy provides, compare that to every province in Canada.

Regarding the paper, for them to state:

"For a company with negative or sub-par ROEs to remain in the industry, either the accounting rules employed understate its profitability

a company operating in many product and geographic markets has an incentive to transfer profits around to the market(s) with the lowest tax rates, and accounting rules do not preclude the company from doing so; or this company is one of many business units of the parent company, and negative or low ROEs are tolerated because this unit acts as a loss leader for the parent as a whole

in other words the real profitability of this business unit is seriously understated."

Source and proof for each company excluded from the study?

To me it seems very convenient for them to leave a third of insurance companies (including TD) out of focus of the paper. The paper was looking for shock value.

What are the updated numbers if they did not exclude the third of insurance companies?

Why is RBC getting out of the home and auto business if it is that profitable?
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Jan 13, 2007
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RobertSmalls008 wrote: Fine, I'll give you one more.

I don't feel the need to discuss personal information on RFD, if you choose to tell the public the industry you work in, feel free.

Do you agree that in Ontario we have the highest claim cost per vehicle insured?

Regarding the Toronto Sun article, I am disputing the fact Ontario has the lowest minor injury benefits in Canada.

As early stated, take a look at the accident benefit package the Ontario auto policy provides, compare that to every province in Canada.

Regarding the paper, for them to state:

"For a company with negative or sub-par ROEs to remain in the industry, either the accounting rules employed understate its profitability

a company operating in many product and geographic markets has an incentive to transfer profits around to the market(s) with the lowest tax rates, and accounting rules do not preclude the company from doing so; or this company is one of many business units of the parent company, and negative or low ROEs are tolerated because this unit acts as a loss leader for the parent as a whole

in other words the real profitability of this business unit is seriously understated."

Source and proof for each company excluded from the study?

To me it seems very convenient for them to leave a third of insurance companies (including TD) out of focus of the paper. The paper was looking for shock value.

What are the updated numbers if they did not exclude the third of insurance companies?

Why is RBC getting out of the home and auto business if it is that profitable?
We already discussed these but you just ignore all of them. Regarding RBC getting out of insurance business, why does it matter? Maybe they have even more profitable businesses elsewhere or found a good deal selling this unit. Anyway they are a basically a bank, not every bank must be an insurer too. You also may wonder why does Aviva buy RBC insurance unit if it's losing money, eh?
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Jan 3, 2008
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zoro69 wrote: Tell the kid when hes 18 you'll get him a car sharing membership for $50~ a year, which will make him insured for experience purposes. Spend the money you'd pay to add him on your policy elsewhere
hmm.. can you explain what is "car sharing membership"?
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Dec 7, 2012
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busybe wrote: hmm.. can you explain what is "car sharing membership"?
"As of January, Canada had 20 car sharing services with more than 336,000 members and more than 5,200 vehicles."

Read http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-dr ... e26565669/

There are two types of car sharing: one-way and two-way.

“One-way would be the likes of Car2Go, where you take the car from A to B and you drop it off wherever,” says Selena McLachlan, director of marketing for Modo, a Vancouver-based car co-op. “They’re typically referred to as self-serve taxis and they’re typically used for very short trips.”

With Car2Go, for example, you pick up the nearest car and, when you’re done, you leave it anywhere in the service area. You don’t have to take it back to where you got it.

With a two-way car, you book by the hour and you pick it up and drop it off in the same place. When you’re done, you have to put it back where you found it.

“They’re basically neighbourhood cars – so you may have 10 cars that permanently live in your immediate area,” McLachlan says. “With a two-way car, it doesn’t make sense to take (it) for work because you wouldn’t want to be paying for it for 8 hours.”

You can usually book one-way for longer trips, for example, by the hour or overnight, but you can still leave them anywhere.
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busybe wrote: hmm.. can you explain what is "car sharing membership"?
Car shares lile zipcar, autoshare, modo, student carshare, communato etc will provide a letter (or most of them will, might be a small fee) from their insurer stating you were insured with them for x time after you have been a member.

Those type of services used to have age of 21 or even higher, but thats been falling with a lot at 18 now, though some its only 18 if you are a student. Others anyone 18 can join. The annual cost to maintain a membership can be quite low, though using the car tends not to be cheap
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Aug 11, 2008
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zip car is one for example.....when you become a member, some insurance companies will take this as prior insurance experience when you go to purchase your own ins policy in the future
busybe wrote: hmm.. can you explain what is "car sharing membership"?
RIBO LICENCED INSURANCE BROKER, over 35 years experience
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Mar 5, 2005
435 posts
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axela3 wrote: yeah you need to fill out that exclusion form and signed by whoever owns /the car is insured and the teen in your family has to sign it too confirming he won't be driving your car. after signing it just scan it and email it back to your insurance. do this asap so they won't keep charging you extra in your premium. if they dont send the form , just draft a letter stating all the your insurance info and the teen driver's info including license number etc. stating he won't be driving your car .
Is this exclusion form available to policyholders in Alberta?
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Apr 21, 2004
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zoro69 wrote: Tell the kid when hes 18 you'll get him a car sharing membership for $50~ a year, which will make him insured for experience purposes. Spend the money you'd pay to add him on your policy elsewhere
tk1000 wrote: "As of January, Canada had 20 car sharing services with more than 336,000 members and more than 5,200 vehicles."

Read http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-dr ... e26565669/

There are two types of car sharing: one-way and two-way.

“One-way would be the likes of Car2Go, where you take the car from A to B and you drop it off wherever,” says Selena McLachlan, director of marketing for Modo, a Vancouver-based car co-op. “They’re typically referred to as self-serve taxis and they’re typically used for very short trips.”

With Car2Go, for example, you pick up the nearest car and, when you’re done, you leave it anywhere in the service area. You don’t have to take it back to where you got it.

With a two-way car, you book by the hour and you pick it up and drop it off in the same place. When you’re done, you have to put it back where you found it.

“They’re basically neighbourhood cars – so you may have 10 cars that permanently live in your immediate area,” McLachlan says. “With a two-way car, it doesn’t make sense to take (it) for work because you wouldn’t want to be paying for it for 8 hours.”

You can usually book one-way for longer trips, for example, by the hour or overnight, but you can still leave them anywhere.
zoro69 wrote: Car shares lile zipcar, autoshare, modo, student carshare, communato etc will provide a letter (or most of them will, might be a small fee) from their insurer stating you were insured with them for x time after you have been a member.

Those type of services used to have age of 21 or even higher, but thats been falling with a lot at 18 now, though some its only 18 if you are a student. Others anyone 18 can join. The annual cost to maintain a membership can be quite low, though using the car tends not to be cheap
Interesting. I asked on the long time insurance thread because I will have a daughter turning 16 by year-end.

Before I chanced upon this thread, I didn't know that putting them as occasional drivers would help young adults lower their own insurance premiums down the road. I thought the thing that mattered the most was the number of years they have had their G2 or G license but it's good to know another factor considered is the number of years they have been on policy (ies).

While perusing this thread and before coming across your responses, I thought about building history using weekend car rentals covered by credit card issuers (or their insurance underwriters) but I guess those don't actually help build insurance policy histories.

I will definitely check the impact of adding her as an occasional driver to both our vehicles and if the jump is too significant, I will put her on the newer car with some additional safety features.

Good point about the ride sharing programs. I will definitely study that further. Each of our car costs $800/year to insure and because she's female, I'm hoping it won't cost so much more. I am in the Burlington/Oakville,ON area.

This being RFD, maybe I should have her go through a ride sharing program once a month for just an hour so that she just builds an insurance history. :) Definitely going to have her enroll in a MTO accredited school so she can get 3 stars right off the bat.
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Aug 11, 2008
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Yes for sure look at adding her to your vehicle as an occ'l... rates for young females are considerably lower than young males...
I am also in the Burlington area, rates are quite a bit lower than the GTA....
alanbrenton wrote: Interesting. I asked on the long time insurance thread because I will have a daughter turning 16 by year-end.

Before I chanced upon this thread, I didn't know that putting them as occasional drivers would help young adults lower their own insurance premiums down the road. I thought the thing that mattered the most was the number of years they have had their G2 or G license but it's good to know another factor considered is the number of years they have been on policy (ies).

While perusing this thread and before coming across your responses, I thought about building history using weekend car rentals covered by credit card issuers (or their insurance underwriters) but I guess those don't actually help build insurance policy histories.

I will definitely check the impact of adding her as an occasional driver to both our vehicles and if the jump is too significant, I will put her on the newer car with some additional safety features.

Good point about the ride sharing programs. I will definitely study that further. Each of our car costs $800/year to insure and because she's female, I'm hoping it won't cost so much more. I am in the Burlington/Oakville,ON area.

This being RFD, maybe I should have her go through a ride sharing program once a month for just an hour so that she just builds an insurance history. :) Definitely going to have her enroll in a MTO accredited school so she can get 3 stars right off the bat.
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alanbrenton wrote: Interesting. I asked on the long time insurance thread because I will have a daughter turning 16 by year-end.

Before I chanced upon this thread, I didn't know that putting them as occasional drivers would help young adults lower their own insurance premiums down the road. I thought the thing that mattered the most was the number of years they have had their G2 or G license but it's good to know another factor considered is the number of years they have been on policy (ies).

While perusing this thread and before coming across your responses, I thought about building history using weekend car rentals covered by credit card issuers (or their insurance underwriters) but I guess those don't actually help build insurance policy histories.

I will definitely check the impact of adding her as an occasional driver to both our vehicles and if the jump is too significant, I will put her on the newer car with some additional safety features.

Good point about the ride sharing programs. I will definitely study that further. Each of our car costs $800/year to insure and because she's female, I'm hoping it won't cost so much more. I am in the Burlington/Oakville,ON area.

This being RFD, maybe I should have her go through a ride sharing program once a month for just an hour so that she just builds an insurance history. :) Definitely going to have her enroll in a MTO accredited school so she can get 3 stars right off the bat.
There is no record from normal car rentals that would help...but your 16 yr old daughter is many years away from even being able to drive one. They are all 21 minimum, with some requiring 21-24 to also prove they are listed on an existing auto policy. PRetty sure uhaul is the only one allowing vehicle rental under 21, and that would be very expensive to rent just to drive and not the type of vehicle anyone would want anyway.. At the rate car sharing is growing, there will be many more cars around by the time your daughter is 18, especially if she'll be a student

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