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[Green Ontario Fund] ON - new Gov't rebates for insulation heat pumps, etc

  • Last Updated:
  • Jan 19th, 2018 9:39 pm
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
941 upvotes
Paris
kiasu wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 10:12 am
so R60 is better than R50?
janko023 wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 10:19 am
I asked this and the answer is, you will not notice a difference and the difference in your bill will not be all that different. What it does is future proof you for any building code changes moving forward. Do R60 and don't have to worry about it for a long while.
Im sorry I dont agree.... There is a law of diminishing returns on insulation but more insulation WILL lower your heat/AC bill. But no sense putting in R120 and spending double to get an extra 5% efficiency (numbers are an example obviously).

Personally when I did my own attic I calculated R60 to be the sweet spot for cost vs gain.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Jr. Member
Dec 9, 2003
169 posts
46 upvotes
Jerico wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 11:53 am
Im sorry I dont agree.... There is a law of diminishing returns on insulation but more insulation WILL lower your heat/AC bill. But no sense putting in R120 and spending double to get an extra 5% efficiency (numbers are an example obviously).

Personally when I did my own attic I calculated R60 to be the sweet spot for cost vs gain.
Sure, but going from R50 to R60 you wont see much of a difference in terms of savings per month.
Based purely on what the guy said when he was explaining it to me, he said that getting to r50 will get you to about 4% loss, and getting up to R60 will tweak that a bit but not drastically.
If anything, once everything settles over time, having R60 will mean you might get to R50 at some point where R50 will mean you might drop to R40.

End of the day do what is right for you, but know that after R50 you get minimal gains and savings basically.
Deal Addict
Nov 30, 2003
1941 posts
413 upvotes
Nunavut
janko023 wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 8:20 am
Have been getting wide ranges of measurements so I did a measurement myself and the result was 900sqft so results bellow are based on what they thought it was.

What I got so far

Reitzel (phone quote based on 1000sqft) - R50 - $1.25sqft. No mention of baffles or need for any additions (could be something they try to sell you on while at the job site). Would not give install date

Brand Insulation (phone quote based on google image measurements 1100sqft) - R50 - $1.1sqft - baffled at $5 each installed and pot light covering at $5 installed each + $50 Admin fee
Brand Insulation (phone quote based on google image measurements 1100sqft) - R60 - $1.2sqft - baffled at $5 each installed and pot light covering at $5 installed each + $50 Admin fee
One thing about Brand is that they mentioned that everything needs to be done by end of march and that they are almost all booked up (gae a date of march 22nd as the first available). Kept placing me on hold to answer calls every 5 min. Not sure if this was a tactic to make it seem like they are insanely busy or actually are.

Exotherm (phone quote based on 1000sqft) - R50/R60 - $1.2 - do not install baffles - The guy was terrible to deal with over the phone like he was doing me a fav in answering and I was bothering him.
Install date as soon as next week.

Constant Home Comfort (on site assessment) - laser measured 750sqft (its wrong) - R50 - $1000 plus $10 per baffle installed
Constant Home Comfort (on site assessment) - laser measured 750sqft (its wrong) - R60 - $1100 plus $10 per baffle installed
Constant Home Comfort (Asked for re quote based on 1000sqft) - R50 - $1150 plus $10 per baffle installed
Constant Home Comfort (Asked for re quote based on 1000sqft) - R60 - $1250 plus $10 per baffle installed
Install date available as soon as next week.
One thing I will say about this company is that they volunteered a year warranty on settlement. So if it goes under the value you paid for, they will come back and add on. So you don't have to worry about them increasing the air in the hose in theory.
I had Reitzel come for a quote, they have a $100 off coupon on their website to bring price down

Called yesterday to book apt for installation, they are currently booking starting around Feb. 8th
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Feb 11, 2007
5291 posts
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GTA
My quote from GNI. It's high, but includes installing 80 baffles and some air sealing. Going rate for baffle installation seems to be $10 each, so that's $800 right there. My 2 attics are 4/12 slope, so pretty low/small.

1000 sq.ft. attic (2 attics of 500sq.ft each)
Crib weatherstrip, insulate 2 attic hatches.
Install air baffles on all rafters in both attics.
Air seal any lights/stacks athat aren't already done.
Top up R15 to R60 with blown cellulose.
$1681

Garage
Spray 2lb closed cell foam to R20 on one exterior wall.
Spray 2lb closed cell foam to R12 on short portion of ceiling under balcony.
$1000

Is that a good price for spray foaming? The wall would be about 20ft long by 8ft tall, so 160 sq.ft and the ceiling portion would be 15x5ft so 75sq.ft. That's $4.25sq.ft for a small area, so setup costs are relatively higher.
Member
Dec 29, 2009
489 posts
99 upvotes
I just spoke with Brand and was told that the injection insulation for insulating walls without taking down the drywall won't fall under the greenon program because you can't take a photo of the insulation. Just an FYI.

Edit: I called GreenOn and they suggested if photos are taken throughout the process "wall with no holes, hole put in, hose put in, spray foam leaking out" they'd accept that.
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
941 upvotes
Paris
janko023 wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 12:38 pm
Sure, but going from R50 to R60 you wont see much of a difference in terms of savings per month.
Based purely on what the guy said when he was explaining it to me, he said that getting to r50 will get you to about 4% loss, and getting up to R60 will tweak that a bit but not drastically.
Calculation is very simple. Square feet * difference inside outside in fairyheight / R value = BTU heat loss.

1500 square feet at 40 degrees / 50 = 1200 BTUs needed per hour to replace losses
1500 x 40 / 60 = 1000 BTUs needed = 16% gain in attic efficiency over R50
1500 x 40 / 100 = 600 BTUs needed = 50% gain in efficiency over R50

If you have a 40k BTU furnace then R50 will get you to 3% loss on your attic, and R60 will get you to 2.5% loss. (Remember there are holes, windows, walls etc which are worse than the attic. There are 6 months or more a year that you are heating or cooling (lets ignore the stupid AC costs and just deal with NG which is around 15 cents per cubic metre or .4 cents per 1,000 BTU. R50 costs you 4.8 cents per heating hour, and R60 costs you 4 cents per heating hour.

6 months, 24 hours per day
R50 - $207.36
R60 - $172.80
Difference = $35/year. It’s WAY WAY more as A/C costs about 8-10 times more than NG for heat, so even conservatively its probably $100/year. How much more is it to blow in another R10?
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
941 upvotes
Paris
qman23 wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 2:05 pm
Don't you need to take into account the number of degree day's for where you live?
If your furnace is running at 40Kbtu, 24 hrs a day for 6 months your gas bill would be enormous.
The calculations are a spreadsheet, I dumbed it down a lot. But the heat loss at 40 degrees difference is an easy calculation. The furnace size is immaterial as i did the cost of gas per 1,000 BTU. Your furnace could be 40k or 92k 2 stage, the cost of 1,000 BTU in gas alone is fairly constant.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Sr. Member
Nov 12, 2015
674 posts
924 upvotes
I think we need to have a lip added to the hatch to get it ready for the extra height added by the new blown in insulation.
Jr. Member
Apr 18, 2017
107 posts
57 upvotes
got it. makes sense,
but don't you think the 35-100 dollars a year savings are extremely optimistic? (or pessimistic depending on your POV)
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
941 upvotes
Paris
iherald wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 1:13 pm
I just spoke with Brand and was told that the injection insulation for insulating walls without taking down the drywall won't fall under the greenon program because you can't take a photo of the insulation. Just an FYI.

Edit: I called GreenOn and they suggested if photos are taken throughout the process "wall with no holes, hole put in, hose put in, spray foam leaking out" they'd accept that.
This is a wall. This is a hole. This is a hole with a hose. This is a hole with insulation leaking out.

Seems legit... :). I’d love to do this to my garage.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
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Feb 11, 2007
5291 posts
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GTA
PriceHunter wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 2:15 pm
I think we need to have a lip added to the hatch to get it ready for the extra height added by the new blown in insulation.
They should be including that in their quote.
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
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Paris
engineered wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 1:13 pm
My quote from GNI. It's high, but includes installing 80 baffles and some air sealing. Going rate for baffle installation seems to be $10 each, so that's $800 right there.
Baffles are miserable work but I should expect that to take you no more than 4 hours to do it. I would DIY the baffles to be honest. About $40 in materials so over $100/hour for DIY and not rocket science. If you make that much at work then have at it, otherwise a good place to cut costs. I blew in my own garage and had to do this everywhere in a tight space and there is no way in heck I would have paid someone $250+ to do it.

Spray foam is $2.5-3.5 per square and you do have a small area.

The best thing for an attic hatch is an old flush door. Weather stripping like a door and a piece of a flush exterior door.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Deal Addict
Jan 25, 2007
3204 posts
941 upvotes
Paris
qman23 wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 2:17 pm
got it. makes sense,
but don't you think the 35-100 dollars a year savings are extremely optimistic? (or pessimistic depending on your POV)
I think $100-150 is where I came out on my place at 1,500 square feet of attic. I was DIYing it and it was $150 for the extra R10 I think.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Feb 11, 2007
5291 posts
3660 upvotes
GTA
Jerico wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 2:23 pm
Baffles are miserable work but I should expect that to take you no more than 4 hours to do it. I would DIY the baffles to be honest. About $40 in materials so over $100/hour for DIY and not rocket science. If you make that much at work then have at it, otherwise a good place to cut costs. I blew in my own garage and had to do this everywhere in a tight space and there is no way in heck I would have paid someone $250+ to do it.

Spray foam is $2.5-3.5 per square and you do have a small area.

The best thing for an attic hatch is an old flush door. Weather stripping like a door and a piece of a flush exterior door.
They are, especially on my low slope roof. I was going to DIY it myself this spring, but with the rebates I'm willing to pay for it. Even still, I'd probably get a handyman dude to do the baffles for $150=250.
Without the baffles the price would still be at least $1200-1300, so I'm basically paying to not crawl around in old blown fibreglass, which I'm happy to do for $3-400.

I did the fully DIY at my last place but it was only 3 sides of a semi detached and only about 750sq.ft. It was also a steeper roof. The actual blowing in of insulation isn't really work at all. Kinda fun to do, just need a helper downstairs to keep loading bags.

I asked them to do cellulose over the fibreglass as from what I can see, it's better in almost every way (pest resistance, air sealing, R-value per inch(important with my low roof).
Jr. Member
Dec 9, 2003
169 posts
46 upvotes
Jerico wrote:
Jan 12th, 2018 1:28 pm
Calculation is very simple. Square feet * difference inside outside in fairyheight / R value = BTU heat loss.

1500 square feet at 40 degrees / 50 = 1200 BTUs needed per hour to replace losses
1500 x 40 / 60 = 1000 BTUs needed = 16% gain in attic efficiency over R50
1500 x 40 / 100 = 600 BTUs needed = 50% gain in efficiency over R50

If you have a 40k BTU furnace then R50 will get you to 3% loss on your attic, and R60 will get you to 2.5% loss. (Remember there are holes, windows, walls etc which are worse than the attic. There are 6 months or more a year that you are heating or cooling (lets ignore the stupid AC costs and just deal with NG which is around 15 cents per cubic metre or .4 cents per 1,000 BTU. R50 costs you 4.8 cents per heating hour, and R60 costs you 4 cents per heating hour.

6 months, 24 hours per day
R50 - $207.36
R60 - $172.80
Difference = $35/year. It’s WAY WAY more as A/C costs about 8-10 times more than NG for heat, so even conservatively its probably $100/year. How much more is it to blow in another R10?
Interesting
In all likelihood i'm looking to get R60 in just for completeness sake

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