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GreenON and insulation contractors - help needed

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Jan 6, 2006
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GreenON and insulation contractors - help needed

Just bought my first house - a bungalow in Hamilton. It's been pretty cold in this house since I moved in in Feb. Thermostat shows 68 degrees or whatever I set it to, furnace shuts off then turns on, but the house is cold. Forced air gas furnace, supposedly a decent one according to the inspector - it's only 2 years old.

Drilled a hole in one of the exterior facing walls and it seems like there's actually little or no insulation in there. I've learned that this is far from uncommon in a 60 year old bungalow of this type. This house has siding on it.

So I became aware of GreenON and started calling contractors. I'm having some trouble getting the same story.

1. Let's say there's 4" of space between the exterior surface of the drywall and whatever you hit when you poke a pencil in there (I assume it's plywood or something). If I do a Drill & Fill, will I be able to get the R value up to R20 which is required before GreenON will pay out?

2. Another contractor told me to Google 'Drill & Fill Horror stories". He said that if you don't put a vapor barrier in on the warm side of the insulation and just do a Drill & Fill, you can get mold and mildew. He said he's seen situations where Drill & Fill results in entire sections of wood studs/drywall rotting away. He says that to do this properly, I need to take down the drywall, insulate (likely spray foam, I assume) and then re-drywall. Comments? I want to do this right but ripping out all the drywall... man oh man. It's a very small house but still.

3. One guy said the only way to do Drill & Fill is to drill holes in the interior walls. The next guy said he'd take an exterior siding panel off, and do it from the outside. Remember, both of these guys were on site. Second way seems way better because there's no filling/sanding/painting involved. I called the first guy back and was honest and told him I was doing what GreenOn told me to do and that is to get 3 quotes - I asked him if he would do it by taking the panels off. He said that it would be too hard because my siding is put on top to bottom? Comments?

4. Windows in this house have been upgraded but the same contractor as (2) above told me that the reason my house is cold can have to do with things other than lack of insulation in exterior walls. (I should say that the attic is only R15 and it was made clear to me by the inspector that I needed to upgrade). In fact he seemed to suggest that increasing insulation may not have that big an impact on the basic issue which is that it's hard to feel warm in the house! Very surprising to me. I'm just looking for comments, my real questions are (1) and (2) above.

Any advice is appreciated... a lot.
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I think your house it cold because you only have your tstat set to 20'C. I have mine at 22.5'C and I consider that cool. Many have theirs at 24-26'C.

As for improving your insulation, I think removing your drywall and spray filling would be the best, but it's the most expensive.
Those drill and fill horror stories would be accurate if you don't have a vapour barrier.
Air sealing your attic and filling to R60 will help a lot.
You could also stryofoam your exterior and stucco over it.
If you want to see where you're losing heat, get a thermal camera, or a contractor who has one to go over your house to find the cold spots. Depending on your upgrades, you should consider getting an energy evaluation and those guys can bring a thermal camera, do a blower test, etc., which is rebated by the gov't.
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engineered wrote: I think your house it cold because you only have your tstat set to 20'C. I have mine at 22.5'C and I consider that cool. Many have theirs at 24-26'C.
Hmm, that's interesting. My only experience has been in the condo I rented just before buying this house (lived in an apartment with no thermostat before that). There, I set the thermostat to 68 - 70 and felt comfortable. Here, I have to wear two sweaters and two toques! Obviously houses are a lot different than condos, I guess. So people in older houses might run their thermostat at 24-26 in order to keep the temp at i.e. 22? Furnace probably just runs and runs, I guess?
engineered wrote: As for improving your insulation, I think removing your drywall and spray filling would be the best, but it's the most expensive.
Those drill and fill horror stories would be accurate if you don't have a vapour barrier.
Air sealing your attic and filling to R60 will help a lot.
You could also stryofoam your exterior and stucco over it.
If you want to see where you're losing heat, get a thermal camera, or a contractor who has one to go over your house to find the cold spots. Depending on your upgrades, you should consider getting an energy evaluation and those guys can bring a thermal camera, do a blower test, etc., which is rebated by the gov't.
That's very helpful, thanks. I wish I had posted here earlier when it was pretty cold so that I could have used that thermal camera tip. Might still work I guess. But really good to have some confirmation about the drill and fill horror stories. There are only 450 sq ft of actual drywall on the exterior walls. I figure I can take the old drywall out myself and get the new installed and painted for what...$3,000? The last guy I spoke to said because the house is so small, doing the spray foam won't be that much more than the drill and fill because of the rebates.
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traderNik wrote: Hmm, that's interesting. My only experience has been in the condo I rented just before buying this house (lived in an apartment with no thermostat before that). There, I set the thermostat to 68 - 70 and felt comfortable. Here, I have to wear two sweaters and two toques! Obviously houses are a lot different than condos, I guess. So people in older houses might run their thermostat at 24-26 in order to keep the temp at i.e. 22? Furnace probably just runs and runs, I guess?


That's very helpful, thanks. I wish I had posted here earlier when it was pretty cold so that I could have used that thermal camera tip. Might still work I guess. But really good to have some confirmation about the drill and fill horror stories. There are only 450 sq ft of actual drywall on the exterior walls. I figure I can take the old drywall out myself and get the new installed and painted for what...$3,000? The last guy I spoke to said because the house is so small, doing the spray foam won't be that much more than the drill and fill because of the rebates.
Yea, I used to live in a south facing condo with large windows and I never put the heat on. Some times I'd have the windows open in the winter because it would get too hot. In a condo you only have one exterior wall, so you absorb heat from the other units.

What I mean is people set their tstat to 24C to be comfortable. If you're uncomfortably cold at 20C, then raise your tstat temp until you are comfy (but your heating bill will go up).

You may have the opposite issue in the summer, unless your house is shaded.

While it is still cool, a thermal camera can still work. You may need to raise your tstat to create a higher differential to make losses easier to see. Otherwise you can check for heat gain in the summer.
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engineered wrote: While it is still cool, a thermal camera can still work. You may need to raise your tstat to create a higher differential to make losses easier to see. Otherwise you can check for heat gain in the summer.
Okay, thanks a lot for that, I'm going to try it.

I found this from a serious building science pro, which seems to indicate that there's nothing wrong with blown-in cellulose in theory.

"One of the most effective ways of dealing with existing uninsulated frame walls is to blow cellulose into the wall cavities. It is a popular and time-proven method of retrofitting insulation and is a mainstay in low-income weatherization programs. It is popular for good reason; it works very well."

I've found a few other articles which outline when I might see issues with moisture, but some of it goes over my head. I may need to find out exactly how my house in constructed before I can figure out where to go next.
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traderNik wrote: Okay, thanks a lot for that, I'm going to try it.

I found this from a serious building science pro, which seems to indicate that there's nothing wrong with blown-in cellulose in theory.

"One of the most effective ways of dealing with existing uninsulated frame walls is to blow cellulose into the wall cavities. It is a popular and time-proven method of retrofitting insulation and is a mainstay in low-income weatherization programs. It is popular for good reason; it works very well."

I've found a few other articles which outline when I might see issues with moisture, but some of it goes over my head. I may need to find out exactly how my house in constructed before I can figure out where to go next.
You have to be careful what you read and be sure you follow specs for our cold weather. Normally we have vapour barriers on the inside of the wall, where warm locations have the barrier on the outside. You should see if you have any at all. If not, dense pack can dry to the outside, but it's not ideal. It will also pull a lot of moisture out of your house. A vapour barrier will also reduce your heat loss.

Are you sure you only have 450sq ft of drywall? That's only a 14x14ft room.
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engineered wrote: You have to be careful what you read and be sure you follow specs for our cold weather. Normally we have vapour barriers on the inside of the wall, where warm locations have the barrier on the outside. You should see if you have any at all. If not, dense pack can dry to the outside, but it's not ideal. It will also pull a lot of moisture out of your house. A vapour barrier will also reduce your heat loss.
Yeah, what I need is for someone to pull a piece of siding off the outside of the house and have a look at what's there, then open up the hole I made to check if there's any insulation and see what's on the inside of the outside wall, if that makes sense - I think that's where you said our vapour barrier is in cold climates. What's bizarre is that the interior was redone with drywall (must have been plaster and lathe originally) but they still apparently didn't put insulation in!
engineered wrote: Are you sure you only have 450sq ft of drywall? That's only a 14x14ft room.
Not sure if I did this right, but I'm not including ceiling, right? I just measured all the exterior walls on the main floor (remember this house is 673 square feet, a tiny bungalow) then I subtracted the area of the windows, the doors and the cupboards and counter in the kitchen. Sorry, that was a typo, it's not 450 sq ft, it's 495, so 500 sq ft.

I get a very sales-pitchy feeling from the insulation guys, I don't know why. I would gladly pay an expert consultant a few hundred bucks to come in here and tell me what's what. Better than feeling compelled to rip the drywall out because I'm scared of what the guy said about moisture.

Strangely, I've Googled 'Drill and Fill Insulation horror stories' and 'Drill and Fill Insulation problems' but can't see a huge number of stories? Your warning about making sure I'm dealing with info specific to cold weather is well taken.

Maybe the guy I talked to was assuming I don't have a vapour barrier. Need to find out what's up with that.
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500 square feet of drywall is 62 feet of exterior drywall. Your house is single level, 20x40ish?

For that small of a house, I’d tear down and spray. Going at it from the outside you may have brick underneath the siding.
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Jerico wrote: 500 square feet of drywall is 62 feet of exterior drywall. Your house is single level, 20x40ish?

For that small of a house, I’d tear down and spray. Going at it from the outside you may have brick underneath the siding.
Hey Jerico, yeah you got it, single level (as in single level main floor and a finished basement) 27' x 25'

So you mean tear down interior drywall and spray, right?

What would you say if I take off the siding and find... not brick but... what's it called, the cladding? Still do it from inside the house, correct?
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traderNik wrote: Hey Jerico, yeah you got it, single level (as in single level main floor and a finished basement) 27' x 25'

So you mean tear down interior drywall and spray, right?

What would you say if I take off the siding and find... not brick but... what's it called, the cladding? Still do it from inside the house, correct?
If the outside is not brick under the siding and its just OSB (or sh!t board as its called in the biz) then you COULD tear off the outside and spray from the out. But its a crap load of work unless you are also doing the siding and paying someone to do it I bet the drywall option would be less. If DIYing that part, its less disruptive to the occupants of the house as the inside stays and looks the same.
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Jerico wrote: If the outside is not brick under the siding and its just OSB (or sh!t board as its called in the biz) then you COULD tear off the outside and spray from the out. But its a crap load of work unless you are also doing the siding and paying someone to do it I bet the drywall option would be less. If DIYing that part, its less disruptive to the occupants of the house as the inside stays and looks the same.
I'm looking inside the hole I made to see if there's any insulation in there. On the inside of whatever makes up my outside wall (Tentest? OSB? Are they the same?) there's what appears to be a black material or layer. I have a feeling this house isn't brick. I need to open that hole more to really see in there. But that's a huge job, isn't it, if it's Tentest or cladding or whatever. Rip off all the siding and all the Tentest? Then spray foam and replace? Geez. This was supposed to be a non-fixer-upper lol.

I'm unfortunately not DIY'ing any part except taking the drywall off if we go that route, and maybe putting the trim back on.

Disrupting the inside is not an issue for me at all.
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traderNik wrote: I'm looking inside the hole I made to see if there's any insulation in there. On the inside of whatever makes up my outside wall (Tentest? OSB? Are they the same?) there's what appears to be a black material or layer. I have a feeling this house isn't brick. I need to open that hole more to really see in there. But that's a huge job, isn't it, if it's Tentest or cladding or whatever. Rip off all the siding and all the Tentest? Then spray foam and replace? Geez. This was supposed to be a non-fixer-upper lol.

I'm unfortunately not DIY'ing any part except taking the drywall off if we go that route, and maybe putting the trim back on.

Disrupting the inside is not an issue for me at all.
It would be from inside... drywall, vapour barrier, insulation inside 2 by wood (we hope) then cladding of some sort, house wrap, then siding. Removing the siding and cladding is a job, but materials wise is nearly free to put back on.

If you are paying for labour, I’d go drywall.
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engineered wrote: I think your house it cold because you only have your tstat set to 20'C. I have mine at 22.5'C and I consider that cool. Many have theirs at 24-26'C.

As for improving your insulation, I think removing your drywall and spray filling would be the best, but it's the most expensive.
Those drill and fill horror stories would be accurate if you don't have a vapour barrier.
Air sealing your attic and filling to R60 will help a lot.
You could also stryofoam your exterior and stucco over it.
If you want to see where you're losing heat, get a thermal camera, or a contractor who has one to go over your house to find the cold spots. Depending on your upgrades, you should consider getting an energy evaluation and those guys can bring a thermal camera, do a blower test, etc., which is rebated by the gov't.
Good post.

I would suggest to get a thermometer or two and check against tstat. We have tried three different tstats with our furnace and they all read 4-6F high so was actually colder then indicated by tstat. Tried all kinds of things like insulating around hole where tstat wires [to shield against hot/cold air] but still read high.

There is offset for interior temperature setting that can be adjusted, as needed.

If have ECM motor on furnace then could also try running furnace fan 24/7 or similar.
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2017,2018: BOC raised rates 5 times and MCAP raised its prime next day each time.
2020: BOC dropped rates 3 times and MCAP waited to drop its prime to include all 3 drops.
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georvu wrote: Good post.

I would suggest to get a thermometer or two and check against tstat. We have tried three different tstats with our furnace and they all read 4-6F high so was actually colder then indicated by tstat. Tried all kinds of things like insulating around hole where tstat wires [to shield against hot/cold air] but still read high.
I had a furnace guy come in and he checked the tstat with a little thermometer he had and the reading at the control panel was pretty accurate. How I wish that would have been the problem!

I have this furnace York TM9E. It has an ECM fan motor. Can you please explain a bit more what you mean by this last sentence? You just run the fan 24/7 without the gas burners actually being on? If so, do you do this to encourage air flow around the house?

http://www.york.com/for-your-home/furna ... eries/tm9e
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traderNik wrote: I had a furnace guy come in and he checked the tstat with a little thermometer he had and the reading at the control panel was pretty accurate. How I wish that would have been the problem!

I have this furnace York TM9E. It has an ECM fan motor. Can you please explain a bit more what you mean by this last sentence? You just run the fan 24/7 without the gas burners actually being on? If so, do you do this to encourage air flow around the house?

http://www.york.com/for-your-home/furna ... eries/tm9e
Yes, just run fan ON continuously... will better equalize temps across house but not going to warm up house considerably.

Suggest try for few days BUT definitely try other suggestions when can as suggested by engineered.
2022/3: BOC raised 10 times and MCAP raised its prime next day.
2017,2018: BOC raised rates 5 times and MCAP raised its prime next day each time.
2020: BOC dropped rates 3 times and MCAP waited to drop its prime to include all 3 drops.

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