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Has anyone taken those situational tests for the PSC of Canada?

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Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2009
2432 posts
674 upvotes
Nova Scotia
leoben wrote: Congrats bztang! It would be awesome if you don't forget about this thread and give us some updates on your experiences as FS-01. By the way I am sure this has been asked many times before, but do you know if CIC considers non-French speakers? I am actually more interested in CIC (than DFATD) but I can't seem to get past the panel/role play interview and wasn't able to ATIP my botched interview for some reason.
We have to wait for the second group to finish their interviews before we can ATIP our files. Hopefully, they will be done in January or February.
Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2009
2432 posts
674 upvotes
Nova Scotia
AndreyDe wrote: It is brutal! That would be one reason why I would want to go through it. I bet that even if unsuccessful, there is much to learn and experience.

I bet one reason they are able to hire high-calibre candidates is because of how tough the whole recruitment and selection process is.
You probably have already seen this document about the oral assessment. For those who have not experienced a group simulation at an interview before, there is a good description from page 3 to page 5.
Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2009
2432 posts
674 upvotes
Nova Scotia
phenakami wrote: Just checked my scores. I don't know how I could have done so bad on sub-test 1. 3rd percentile 9/30. Subtest 2 I got 86th percentile. I thought subtest 1 was not too challenging.
Was your test the paper or computer version?
Sr. Member
Dec 2, 2014
629 posts
225 upvotes
Ottawa, ON
JMoreno wrote: We have to wait for the second group to finish their interviews before we can ATIP our files. Hopefully, they will be done in January or February.
Might be all for not, since I highly suspect any of us who get initial interviews in the 2015 process will have completed them by the time ATIPs got back to us (they did most interviews in March/April last year). Too late to be helpful. I guess just knowing which ones I passed/failed without detail will have to do.

Sigh...
Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2009
2432 posts
674 upvotes
Nova Scotia
OscarWilde38 wrote: Might be all for not, since I highly suspect any of us who get initial interviews in the 2015 process will have completed them by the time ATIPs got back to us (they did most interviews in March/April last year). Too late to be helpful. I guess just knowing which ones I passed/failed without detail will have to do.

Sigh...
Just cross your fingers that you are in the second batch this year. ;)
Member
Jul 2, 2014
300 posts
81 upvotes
Woodbridge, ON
JMoreno wrote: You probably have already seen this document about the oral assessment. For those who have not experienced a group simulation at an interview before, there is a good description from page 3 to page 5.
Haven't seen this one. Thanks.

I bet people cry after going through this oral assessment :)
Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2009
2432 posts
674 upvotes
Nova Scotia
AndreyDe wrote: Haven't seen this one. Thanks.

I bet people cry after going through this oral assessment :)
We have it soft.
Member
Apr 15, 2014
340 posts
81 upvotes
Ottawa
JMoreno wrote: We have to wait for the second group to finish their interviews before we can ATIP our files. Hopefully, they will be done in January or February.
*rubs hands together* I can't wait!

Even though I'll probably be working for ISED by then, I'm really eager to get my results on that written test. I'm almost (60/40) expecting them to say.
Oops -- you did pass the written test. We're so sorry.

"Oh, I cannot wait to read the front page of the Post tomorrow! 'Restaurant reviewer admits: I was wrong about Monica.'"
Member
User avatar
Dec 2, 2010
418 posts
105 upvotes
Prairies
JMoreno wrote: We have to wait for the second group to finish their interviews before we can ATIP our files. Hopefully, they will be done in January or February.
I've been curious to know how these interviews are going, too. Is anyone part of that second group (2014 CIC) still waiting to hear about an interview date? Anyone scheduled into February?
Newbie
Jun 7, 2015
48 posts
10 upvotes
Corman Park, SK
Hello everyone, just checking back in after a pretty long hiatus, reading thru the many pages of new information. Congratulations to Dee and Bztang for making it!

Echoing what toprodcr and publicservant has mentioned, I believe the federal PSR system is a terribly inefficient system, but it's the best system given the constraints of a large, PUBLIC bureaucracy.

Firms such as Goldman Sachs and McKinsey receive 10s of thousands of applications every year for a few hundred or tens entry-level positions worldwide, and that's just through OCR (on-campus recruitment) at their target schools (target schools for Canada being Ivey, McGill, Queen's, U of T, UBC, to a lesser extent Schulich and a few Quebec schools for Montreal positions). Wall Street or Bay Street investment banking firms have a very stringent and efficient (but not the fairest) resume screening system. Not from a target wanting to break in? You better have networked hard with someone at the VP level or above personally vouching for you. Once you pass the resume screening, interviews are a relatively even playing field. McKinsey has a math/logic/verbal-based PST worldwide, given their larger number of applicants and time required to

However, the efficiency that these firms employ cannot be employed by the federal government, for a following key reasons: accreditation and resume screening, incentives and self-selection of employees, and decision-making abilities

1) Accreditation and resume screening:

In the private firms that go thru tens of thousands of applications every year, it's the top local universities or Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT (for tech)/Oxford/Cambridge, or strong connections at the firm, and that's only resume screening. CVs are screened on an average pace of 15- 30 seconds each, and are placed into 3 categories: pass, trash bin, and discuss further. If things are really busy, discuss further pile would also go in the trash bin. This first step narrows down the candidate pool significantly. The PSR would be hard pressed to screen candidates based on universities, even if they want to, and would open themselves up to a lot of scrutiny and public anger they will not want.

It screens out a lot of potentially good candidates, candidates that for a variety of reasons didn't bust ass in high school, get into a top university, and enter the rat race early. However, all else being equal, they are willing to accept that, simply because their talent pool is so large. PSR is the same, but they have to be politically correct. In the real world, McGill and Athabasca online university are leagues apart, but in the eyes of PSR, they are the same, at least in the initial stages.

2) Incentives

Top private firms are incentivized very differently, with higher pay and much longer work hours, and an up-or-out system (if you don't get promoted within a certain time frame, they will politely ask you to leave, but help you find your next job), which basically means you have no job security until you make partner. Investment banking managing directors are fired all the time, but they run their own fiefdoms and due to the connections they built, will be re-hired if they are good (high-level politicians and public servants can make the jump to high finance, because at that level it's all about network building and sales, i.e. Frank McKenna former premier of new brunswick and former ambassador to the US was appointed vice chairman of TD Financial Group, responsible for relationship building). A 3rd-year investment banking analyst at a bulge bracket firm (25 years-old if he entered right out of undergrad, like most do) would make more than an EX-05 (Ambassador to US/China level) in total compensation ($90k base + $95-115k bonus), though at the cost of working over 100 hours a week (that's not a typo). They would be ecstatic at getting off work before midnight any weekday, and usually have to work 1 weekend day. Consulting firms are better, but not by much, given the amount of traveling you do and the work you do that doesn't count towards the 60 - 70 hrs/week you work. Entry-level bankers and consultants will also be doing resume screening, which speeds up the process and helps alleviate strain from HR.

Their HR will stay until at least 8pm during recruiting season, which is September to February, and will respond to emails at 11pm. (I've emailed them at midnight before)

I don't see any federal government HR working past 6pm, unless they are at the EX-level. The two worlds attract different people.

3) Decision-making

Private firms are extremely efficient in their decision-making, after final-round interviews for entry-level candidates, the senior managers of that office get together for a decision meeting with their junior staff, and a decision is made that same evening. Offers are often sent out verbally that same night or the next day, and if you don't hear back within 3 days, it's usually because you are on the wait-list, or there are political issues between directors.

I can't see the federal government doing away with their bureaucracy, centralize decision-making to that extent, and go through the grueling pace of having the decision-meetings at 7 or 8pm to 10pm, everyday, while they screen candidates. They also can't have the fat-trimming in the earlier rounds without being elitist.

Thus, the solution becomes

-weird tests that have little to do with the job at hand (at least McKinsey's PST asks business cases, math, and policy problems)
-random selection for those that passed an arbitrary pass-mark
-treating all candidates the same in the initial screening phase, after going through batteries of exams, until the application has been referred to the hiring department

tl;dr current PSR is the best of a *****ty system, fixing it would require private sector reforms not politically viable.


Disclaimer 1: I did not go to Ivey or McGill
Disclaimer 2: I did online courses at Athabasca and transferred them to my regular university
Disclaimer 3: many of my friends suffered for a few years in investment banking Toronto or New York, at least 2 have worked all-night and slept in the cubicle (looking at you RBC capital markets)
Member
Nov 27, 2010
219 posts
50 upvotes
Ottawa
Thanks innova89!
JMoreno wrote: Congratulations! Awesome news to start the new year. :)
Thanks JMoreno! Your contributions to this forum were invaluable!
Thanks RFD!
Newbie
Jun 7, 2015
48 posts
10 upvotes
Corman Park, SK
Having looked at the US FSO test questions, I think Canada would be very well-served with these kinds of questions, questions that are directly relevant to a job as a Canadian diplomat and require some extensive studying (i.e. Canada-Korea FTA, the lack of one with China while NZ and Aus got a head start, consular rights and restrictions for Canadian citizens jailed in foreign countries, etc.)

The FSO exam used to have a general knowledge component, but that was phased out for some reason.
Sr. Member
Dec 2, 2014
629 posts
225 upvotes
Ottawa, ON
innova89 wrote: Having looked at the US FSO test questions, I think Canada would be very well-served with these kinds of questions, questions that are directly relevant to a job as a Canadian diplomat and require some extensive studying (i.e. Canada-Korea FTA, the lack of one with China while NZ and Aus got a head start, consular rights and restrictions for Canadian citizens jailed in foreign countries, etc.)

The FSO exam used to have a general knowledge component, but that was phased out for some reason.
The reason being you can learn that knowledge in a few weeks of training and it isn't something you need beforehand to effectively do the job.

I get having a knowledge exam that is related to a job. In some cases, it's essential, especially at the non-entry level, because you're hitting the ground running and not being trained.

But this is a development program (as are most PSR processes, in fact). Knowledge of specifics is secondary to competencies and the ability to demonstrate those in practice. That's why the process is the way it is. I know many of the folks out there with IR undergrads and a Masters in some international thing, plus lots of time working and living abroad etc. think they're automatically better than applicants without this, but in the end none of them have worked as a FSO before and all of them will be trained in the same way when they do get in (I also fit into this group of people by the way, my experience has shown there are people in that group who should never be FSOs while I know engineers who definitely should be). The knowledge before the job isn't essential, in short. As well, your time abroad (at least recently) still counts as an asset too, so there's that.

I can't fault the PSR process entirely and I don't think the private sector is better or worse. For every benefit of a practice the private sector uses that the public doesn't, there's also a drawback. The PSEE is the biggest point of contention since it does have a bit of a weird scope and method of evaluating Reasoning and Judgment, but private sector firms use total BS exams sometimes to influence their hiring as well (i.e. Myers–Briggs Type Indicator)
Jr. Member
Oct 16, 2015
145 posts
13 upvotes
innova89 wrote: Hello everyone, just checking back in after a pretty long hiatus, reading thru the many pages of new information. Congratulations to Dee and Bztang for making it!

Echoing what toprodcr and publicservant has mentioned, I believe the federal PSR system is a terribly inefficient system, but it's the best system given the constraints of a large, PUBLIC bureaucracy.

Firms such as Goldman Sachs and McKinsey receive 10s of thousands of applications every year for a few hundred or tens entry-level positions worldwide, and that's just through OCR (on-campus recruitment) at their target schools (target schools for Canada being Ivey, McGill, Queen's, U of T, UBC, to a lesser extent Schulich and a few Quebec schools for Montreal positions). Wall Street or Bay Street investment banking firms have a very stringent and efficient (but not the fairest) resume screening system. Not from a target wanting to break in? You better have networked hard with someone at the VP level or above personally vouching for you. Once you pass the resume screening, interviews are a relatively even playing field. McKinsey has a math/logic/verbal-based PST worldwide, given their larger number of applicants and time required to

However, the efficiency that these firms employ cannot be employed by the federal government, for a following key reasons: accreditation and resume screening, incentives and self-selection of employees, and decision-making abilities

1) Accreditation and resume screening:

In the private firms that go thru tens of thousands of applications every year, it's the top local universities or Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT (for tech)/Oxford/Cambridge, or strong connections at the firm, and that's only resume screening. CVs are screened on an average pace of 15- 30 seconds each, and are placed into 3 categories: pass, trash bin, and discuss further. If things are really busy, discuss further pile would also go in the trash bin. This first step narrows down the candidate pool significantly. The PSR would be hard pressed to screen candidates based on universities, even if they want to, and would open themselves up to a lot of scrutiny and public anger they will not want.

It screens out a lot of potentially good candidates, candidates that for a variety of reasons didn't bust ass in high school, get into a top university, and enter the rat race early. However, all else being equal, they are willing to accept that, simply because their talent pool is so large. PSR is the same, but they have to be politically correct. In the real world, McGill and Athabasca online university are leagues apart, but in the eyes of PSR, they are the same, at least in the initial stages.

2) Incentives

Top private firms are incentivized very differently, with higher pay and much longer work hours, and an up-or-out system (if you don't get promoted within a certain time frame, they will politely ask you to leave, but help you find your next job), which basically means you have no job security until you make partner. Investment banking managing directors are fired all the time, but they run their own fiefdoms and due to the connections they built, will be re-hired if they are good (high-level politicians and public servants can make the jump to high finance, because at that level it's all about network building and sales, i.e. Frank McKenna former premier of new brunswick and former ambassador to the US was appointed vice chairman of TD Financial Group, responsible for relationship building). A 3rd-year investment banking analyst at a bulge bracket firm (25 years-old if he entered right out of undergrad, like most do) would make more than an EX-05 (Ambassador to US/China level) in total compensation ($90k base + $95-115k bonus), though at the cost of working over 100 hours a week (that's not a typo). They would be ecstatic at getting off work before midnight any weekday, and usually have to work 1 weekend day. Consulting firms are better, but not by much, given the amount of traveling you do and the work you do that doesn't count towards the 60 - 70 hrs/week you work. Entry-level bankers and consultants will also be doing resume screening, which speeds up the process and helps alleviate strain from HR.

Their HR will stay until at least 8pm during recruiting season, which is September to February, and will respond to emails at 11pm. (I've emailed them at midnight before)

I don't see any federal government HR working past 6pm, unless they are at the EX-level. The two worlds attract different people.

3) Decision-making

Private firms are extremely efficient in their decision-making, after final-round interviews for entry-level candidates, the senior managers of that office get together for a decision meeting with their junior staff, and a decision is made that same evening. Offers are often sent out verbally that same night or the next day, and if you don't hear back within 3 days, it's usually because you are on the wait-list, or there are political issues between directors.

I can't see the federal government doing away with their bureaucracy, centralize decision-making to that extent, and go through the grueling pace of having the decision-meetings at 7 or 8pm to 10pm, everyday, while they screen candidates. They also can't have the fat-trimming in the earlier rounds without being elitist.

Thus, the solution becomes

-weird tests that have little to do with the job at hand (at least McKinsey's PST asks business cases, math, and policy problems)
-random selection for those that passed an arbitrary pass-mark
-treating all candidates the same in the initial screening phase, after going through batteries of exams, until the application has been referred to the hiring department

tl;dr current PSR is the best of a *****ty system, fixing it would require private sector reforms not politically viable.


Disclaimer 1: I did not go to Ivey or McGill
Disclaimer 2: I did online courses at Athabasca and transferred them to my regular university
Disclaimer 3: many of my friends suffered for a few years in investment banking Toronto or New York, at least 2 have worked all-night and slept in the cubicle (looking at you RBC capital markets)
I agree and like what you said here. Make sense.
Jr. Member
Oct 16, 2015
145 posts
13 upvotes
I can be wrong. But I think the problem is that the PSR is probably the only way for outsiders to get in that department. These outsiders include people have specific knowledge and experience and those who don't. There should be different hiring mechanisms for different people and different purposes. The current one is not fair and efficient for everyone.
Newbie
Sep 22, 2011
72 posts
15 upvotes
Vancouver
Just an update. I applied to the DFATD 2014 FS-1 recruitment campaign and was told a few months back I could not advance because my French was not CCC (close but not enough). However, they schedule a Mandarin test for me a month back which either says either 2 things

1) I'm still in this thing which would be surprising because my level of Mandarin is practically zero. I indicated BEGINNER on my application to the PSR.
2) There is just such a disconnect between components of the hiring process that they tested me for no reason and have yet to officially bump me out.

I suspect 2 because that has been my experience so far. If that is the case that is a waste of resources. I could understand if I had indicated INTERMEDIATE or above for Mandarin but I didn't and my test result certainly shows that I'm not much higher than a false beginner who can get around with some simple expressions. Anyhow until I get the official email saying I'm out I guess anything is possible.
Newbie
Jan 6, 2016
3 posts
Prescott, ON
I am new to this site. Just received an email in regards to a posting for an office assistant position that I had applied to last year. I am invited for testing. The email states that the test will be 2 hours long. From what I have searched - are most test multiple choice? Also It states that the test is in bilingual. I really am only a beginner in French and had sated this on the original application. I guess what I am asking is has anyone on here ever did the test only knowing a bit of French. Thanks
Member
Oct 21, 2011
245 posts
45 upvotes
NEPEAN
cauthon7 wrote: Just an update. I applied to the DFATD 2014 FS-1 recruitment campaign and was told a few months back I could not advance because my French was not CCC (close but not enough). However, they schedule a Mandarin test for me a month back which either says either 2 things

1) I'm still in this thing which would be surprising because my level of Mandarin is practically zero. I indicated BEGINNER on my application to the PSR.
2) There is just such a disconnect between components of the hiring process that they tested me for no reason and have yet to officially bump me out.

I suspect 2 because that has been my experience so far. If that is the case that is a waste of resources. I could understand if I had indicated INTERMEDIATE or above for Mandarin but I didn't and my test result certainly shows that I'm not much higher than a false beginner who can get around with some simple expressions. Anyhow until I get the official email saying I'm out I guess anything is possible.
I'd say #2 as well except I would go further. You probably were bumped out and won't be offered a job. Despite being bumped out, you are still being offered the exam because it's GAC
Member
Jul 2, 2014
300 posts
81 upvotes
Woodbridge, ON
cauthon7 wrote: Just an update. I applied to the DFATD 2014 FS-1 recruitment campaign and was told a few months back I could not advance because my French was not CCC (close but not enough). However, they schedule a Mandarin test for me a month back which either says either 2 things

1) I'm still in this thing which would be surprising because my level of Mandarin is practically zero. I indicated BEGINNER on my application to the PSR.
2) There is just such a disconnect between components of the hiring process that they tested me for no reason and have yet to officially bump me out.

I suspect 2 because that has been my experience so far. If that is the case that is a waste of resources. I could understand if I had indicated INTERMEDIATE or above for Mandarin but I didn't and my test result certainly shows that I'm not much higher than a false beginner who can get around with some simple expressions. Anyhow until I get the official email saying I'm out I guess anything is possible.
Can't you email them and ask about what is going on? There should be someone who might be able to answer.
Or maybe Mandarin, even basic knowledge, is finally valued more than French and you might finally get an offer! Jia you!

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