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Highway robbery (over saturation of designated CA's)

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Deal Fanatic
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Sep 1, 2013
6198 posts
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peanutz wrote: The primary fault lies with professionals who undercut the value of their, and their peers', expertise/work. "Race to the bottom".
Based on what I have read in this thread, it appears that these professionals are worth $90/hr. to the employer, but the employer for whatever reason goes through a recruiter, who take 1/3 of this as a commission. In essence, the principals in this transaction (employer and contractor) are paying an exorbitant fee to the middleman. If the principals can't figure out a way to deal directly with each other on this, it is both their faults.
Deal Addict
Jul 29, 2002
1958 posts
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sleepyguy wrote: Then don't go through a recruiting company and do your own foot work and get that $90+/hr.
For some companies, in order to be their contractor you must work through one of their "pre-approved" recruiting companies.
Deal Expert
Oct 6, 2005
16872 posts
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abc123yyz wrote: I went to an interview where the recruiting company was offering 50 an hour (talked them up to 55 an hr) and found out during the interview that the company is paying 90 an hour for that role. The recruiting firm is wanting to pocket 45 bucks an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, this is normal; being a CA, you should realize that someone needs to pay the salaries at the recruiting firm. The recruiter, admin staff, managers, office rent, etc.

If you want to get the same rate by all means find the contracts yourself?

CheapScotch wrote: but the employer for whatever reason goes through a recruiter, who take 1/3 of this as a commission
One responsible party, one contact to negotiate, no need to vet out individual hires, etc. Makes it much easier for the company to manage.
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Jun 12, 2009
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This thread is confusing and dances around the issue.

Recruiters are like brokers of employment. They know what companies are willing to pay for a specific set of skills and find someone to fill the void. What you should be asking yourself is how many people in your position are feeling ripped off by getting $55hr?

There are too many designated professionals on the market. This will drive down price, it's basic economics. However, this has nothing to do with Recruiters ripping you and the world off. If anything, recruiters exploit the issue by motivating people to create these threads.

Blame the institutes for having zero membership regulations; institutes for mass marketing; blame CPA for creating "0" barriers to entry.

This problem is only going to get worse. Why? Big 4 puts it into perspective:
- they are planning on removing 100% sponsorship of student dues, fees, and training leave. Why? CPA is not restricted to assurance anymore - anyone at their firm can enrol (and is enrolling) in the program. As a result, its getting too expensive for them to continue to pay for it.

Give it time, CPA is branding themsleves to be the new university degree. Just like university is the new highschool today, CPA is the new university tomorrow.

This merger compounds your problem and not a single employed CA will voice it, until they look for work (like OP).
Physicists are made of atoms. A physicist is an attempt by an atom to understand itself.
Sr. Member
Mar 6, 2007
712 posts
86 upvotes
Here's my view:
You know what the rate is and what you're worth.
If you are financially okay, I want to commendate you in taking a stand and not settle for anything less than ~1.5x; if you take significantly less, you are doing all professional a disservice.
Member
Sep 2, 2007
480 posts
181 upvotes
if i had the experience i would go for "hot skills" (if you're talking about ERP - Netsuite and Workday implementations are something to look at that's in demand just about everywhere) just to put in on the resume. even though it's the same old same old process recruiters are bunk and just like to match up key words and put previous experience with x as a requirement even though any decent professional can figure it out on the fly.

unfortunately that seems to be the rules of the game now with employers having the upper hand and with everything even a trusty designation - turning into a commodity
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Sep 20, 2006
1507 posts
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coolspot wrote: Yes, this is normal; being a CA, you should realize that someone needs to pay the salaries at the recruiting firm. The recruiter, admin staff, managers, office rent, etc.

If you want to get the same rate by all means find the contracts yourself?




One responsible part, one contact to negotiate, no need to vet out individual hires, etc. Makes it much easier for the company to manage.

Not sure if you actually read my posts. Yes there should be a markup, but what is a reasonable mark up.? In defence of the recruiting firms, its not really their fault. They are trying to find the a person whom can do the job for the lowest possible price. So this issue is really due to seasoned professionals willing to undervalue themselves due to circumstances. That can then be blamed on a variety of factors.
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Jun 12, 2009
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Chigu wrote: Not sure if you actually read my posts. Yes there should be a markup, but what is a reasonable mark up.? In defence of the recruiting firms, its not really their fault. They are trying to find the a person whom can do the job for the lowest possible price. So this issue is really due to seasoned professionals willing to undervalue themselves due to circumstances. That can then be blamed on a variety of factors.
You think seasoned CAs have a choice in their valuation? This is the move neive comment I've read in this entire thread.

The choice is not simply "pay me X to do X job". Rather, it's "Pay me x to survive".

How a community (RFD) can bypass the entire issue and scapegoat the choice to accept a wage as the primary variable determining the going price for a seasoned CA discounts RFD community as a whole.

Are you people scared to admit the doom and gloom reality accountants are experiencing if not today, certainly tomorrow? Denail does not do anything; acceptance is where change starts: hammer the institutes - they are voted in, no? Demand membership quotas and restrictions.

Prestige is earned. Right now, institutes (CPA) are selling it off. CGA/CMA/CA (prior to merger) had serious marketing efforts to do what, increase public awareness of their designation? No - memberships! It's all about memberships.

Memberships = dues = power. Institutes only care about one thing - membership fees; it is a business.
Physicists are made of atoms. A physicist is an attempt by an atom to understand itself.
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Sep 14, 2006
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To be honest, Robert half charges more. You're better off going to another recruiting company.

Also, this is just the reality of the job market. You have many people willing to take 55 an hour. Why would someone pay you more to do the same?
TEAM CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!
Deal Addict
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Jan 14, 2006
1093 posts
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Toronto
bobbings wrote: To be honest, Robert half charges more. You're better off going to another recruiting company.

Also, this is just the reality of the job market. You have many people willing to take 55 an hour. Why would someone pay you more to do the same?
Rat race to the bottom
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Sep 23, 2009
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If only we could see similar things happening in the public sector ....

Wages were good in accounting, and then a lot of people studied it (a lot of supply) and then wages came down because of the oversupply.

In the future, rational people will study something that pays better and supply will decrease ....

And yet, in Ontario, we always hear of the underemployment of teachers.

If we decreased the compensation of teachers, we would, over time see a decrease in the number of teachers as people would make the rational choice of studying something else.

This happens all the time in the private sector. It's normal. But to the public sector? Never. And then they wonder why there is an oversupply .....
Deal Expert
Oct 6, 2005
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Chigu wrote: Not sure if you actually read my posts. Yes there should be a markup, but what is a reasonable mark up.?

40% margin is not unusual in the services industry ... overhead to run some of these businesses can be high.
Deal Fanatic
Sep 23, 2007
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Credentials inflation. It's everywhere. It's not just with degrees anymore. Designations are also becoming saturated as people are simply not retiring. I see it not just with accountants, but in all fields. The labour market is like any other market: it's based on supply and demand. if 55/hour is the best offer you can get after some searching, then just take it. It's not like ranting on a forum will change the job market. It's not like you'll get enough public sympathy for the government to take any action. If anything, you'll probably get more jealous people and wannabe CAs complaining about how hard it is to be designated. When I graduated, people were talking about expanding the CA program to remove the "bottleneck" in CA recruitment. Creating more paths to designation is good for prospective students but bad for existing CAs. Too bad...

And about agencies, they have a standard profit margin of around 33% if the agency is paying you. Getting 55/hour is not bad...but it's a shame really. I really wish there are more direct hires instead of using agencies. I'm a fan of cutting the middleman because I don't see agencies adding that much value, especially in relation to the work they do.

The job market has really changed. There's so much more contract/short term jobs now. Permanent full time is very slowly fading.
Deal Addict
Aug 4, 2010
1030 posts
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Reading threads like this makes me thankful my employer is paying 100% of any student/membership/tuition fees for the CPA program. I don't think I would have entered it if it wasn't paid for; "annual student fees" just seem like a scam to me.

As others have mentioned, there has been a lot of marketing hype created in the past years; CPA ads everywhere. I would like to see some real numbers to support the oversaturation argument but I certainly feel like it is the case (no hard proof though).
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Sep 14, 2006
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RodDog999 wrote: Reading threads like this makes me thankful my employer is paying 100% of any student/membership/tuition fees for the CPA program. I don't think I would have entered it if it wasn't paid for; "annual student fees" just seem like a scam to me.

As others have mentioned, there has been a lot of marketing hype created in the past years; CPA ads everywhere. I would like to see some real numbers to support the oversaturation argument but I certainly feel like it is the case (no hard proof though).
Well, that CPA commercial with the lady on a mission made it seem like accountants are on a mission impossible mission. Very attractive commercial but far from the truth.
TEAM CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!
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Oct 1, 2011
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siriuskao wrote: For some companies, in order to be their contractor you must work through one of their "pre-approved" recruiting companies.
Exactly.

I had a friend beg me to fill in some shifts with a company, so I agreed as a favour, but I had to go through a recruiting firm since they were partnered with them. It was a two-day stint and I wasn't doing it for the money so I agreed to a mediocre rate.

Afterwards, the manager of the company kept asking for me, specifically, so I told them and the recruiters that I wouldn't work below my line. The recruiter agreed to it because although they made little off of me, they also have an interest in keeping their clients happy. This manager was notorious for banning contract hires who weren't cut out for the work there.
Chigu wrote: So this issue is really due to seasoned professionals willing to undervalue themselves due to circumstances. That can then be blamed on a variety of factors.
It's not usually seasoned professionals, at least in my primary line of work. It's more often people who merely hold a license but aren't great at their work (inexperienced, inefficient, mistakes, haven't kept up-to-date, no communication or interpersonal skills, etc.) who know they would lose out in a toe-to-toe battle for a job if it was based on merit, so they negotiate the job based on willingness to go lower and lower. As sad as it is, one of the other temps told me the rate he had accepted, which was $35/hr less than me. Nice guy, but I hated working with him because I had to work harder to pick up his slack.
Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2007
762 posts
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Got 'Visions' magazine which is Alberta's new CPA magazine. Wow! Total CPA's stand at approx 24,500 (not including students) which is a 5,000 member increase from 2009. No wonder the market is toast!!! Also the numbers for new students and existing students is off the charts. They are predicting 30,000 members (again...without students) by 2019. Where these people will work I have no clue
Deal Expert
Oct 7, 2010
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Sounds like accountants will no longer be highly paid. Like the rest of the professional professions.

Engineering dead, Pharmacy dead, and now Accounting dead. Doctors and Dentists are next.
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Jun 12, 2009
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$22,050,000 dues ($900 * 24,500)
$75,000,000 student fees (5000 * $15,000)
-----------
~$97,050,000

Not bad revenue. CPA is a business selling designations. You think they care about you, or any other member?
Physicists are made of atoms. A physicist is an attempt by an atom to understand itself.
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Sep 20, 2006
1507 posts
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Agreed, the amalgamation of the designations benefits only the association, not the membership.

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