how much over invoice do you offer?

[hugh chung]

Hello everybody,

i am about to purchase an 2009 accord v6 exl automatic. I am wondering, how much over invoice is a fair offer? i know it varies, but what is the standard? i wanna be in and out of there faster than in the bedroom with the missus

[newbieparadise]

Hello everybody,

i am about to purchase an 2009 accord v6 exl automatic. I am wondering, how much over invoice is a fair offer? i know it varies, but what is the standard? i wanna be in and out of there faster than in the bedroom with the missus

i think 800 under invoice is very fair for the consumer

[pkfk13]

It depends on what incentives are on the car you are considering. You should think in terms of how much over COST you are paying, rather than how much over/under INVOICE you are paying, because the Invoice will vary quite a bit depending on factory incentives.

If there is a big factory to dealer incentive (check Carcostcanada) then you can likely get a below invoice price.

I think the question should be how much over "dealer cost" can you get the car for ? (dealer cost being variable according to any incentive programs that are available for your car in question).

CCC recommends 3-6% markup - but I think that is too rich - sure you will get a fast deal - but why not go for something better ?

If you take the dealer cost, and subtract any applicable incentives, and then add on about 500 bucks, then you should be in the zone to close the deal. Note that you still have to pay Freight/PDI + all taxes.

Do not take any etching / globali, rustproofing, fabric protection etc. as part of the deal unless you really want them, and are sure of your pricing - these items tend to be extremely overpriced at the dealerships.

BTW - 500 over cost is in the range of a "Fleet purchase" deal - not all dealers will go for this - especially on a sunny Saturday when people are lined up 3 deep to talk to the sales guys. You will likely do better on a rainy weekday with this type of offer !

That is my $0.02.....any others have suggestions as to what they think a rock-bottom deal is ?

[hugh chung]

It depends on what incentives are on the car you are considering. You should think in terms of how much over COST you are paying, rather than how much over/under INVOICE you are paying, because the Invoice will vary quite a bit depending on factory incentives.

If there is a big factory to dealer incentive (check Carcostcanada) then you can likely get a below invoice price.

I think the question should be how much over "dealer cost" can you get the car for ? (dealer cost being variable according to any incentive programs that are available for your car in question).

CCC recommends 3-6% markup - but I think that is too rich - sure you will get a fast deal - but why not go for something better ?

If you take the dealer cost, and subtract any applicable incentives, and then add on about 500 bucks, then you should be in the zone to close the deal. Note that you still have to pay Freight/PDI + all taxes.

Do not take any etching / globali, rustproofing, fabric protection etc. as part of the deal unless you really want them, and are sure of your pricing - these items tend to be extremely overpriced at the dealerships.

BTW - 500 over cost is in the range of a "Fleet purchase" deal - not all dealers will go for this - especially on a sunny Saturday when people are lined up 3 deep to talk to the sales guys. You will likely do better on a rainy weekday with this type of offer !

That is my $0.02.....any others have suggestions as to what they think a rock-bottom deal is ?

thanks for the advice! by invoice i meant dealer costs i guess, the profit to add onto the price after all incentives have been taken into consideration.

500 over cost is a standard thing?

i guess it will depend on the salesmen, if he/she is a pushy person then i wont have any problems trying to get as low as possible, but if he/she is nice, then i would like both parties to walk away semi happy

[ES_Revenge]

i think 800 under invoice is very fair for the consumer

Edit: I totally misread this as saying over invoice at first. Though I think $800 under invoice is a little too optimistic I don't think getting under invoice in some amount, is out of the question. At least getting a price very near to invoice should be more common than the standard Canadian screwjob.

It's sad that it is common of Canadians buying cars to be bargaining on MSRP "with invoice pricing in mind" rather than just straight bargaining on invoice pricing.

In the US, many customers walk out the door until they are talking $$$ under the invoice price. And of course MSRPs are already lower in the US to begin with. A person from the US once posted on RFD after moving to Canada about how they were shocked at how Canadian dealerships did "negotiations". He said it was like going back to the 1980s I believe, lol.

I think if the attitudes of Canadian consumers were a bit different, we would be seeing sales under invoice price as common as well.

That said, this is Canada, so I'd have to say $500 over invoice is a "great" deal on a lot of cars. Also depending on the make, you may not even be able to get anywhere near that either--again said, but just the way it is.

[ak1004]

It's sad that this is not only the general thinking of Canadians, but also common for this to be considered normal practice for dealerships as well.

In the US, many customers walk out the door until they are talking $$$ under the invoice price. And of course MSRPs are already lower in the US to begin with.

I think if the attitudes of Canadian consumers were a bit different, we would be seeing sales under invoice price as common as well.

That said, this is Canada, so I'd have to say $500 over invoice is a "great" deal on a lot of cars. Also depending on the make, you may not even be able to get anywhere near that either--again said, but just the way it is.

When you say “under invoice” I assume you take into consideration the factory rebates, otherwise it would be under cost (which would cause the dealer consistently to sell at lost). But it really depends on the rebate. For the car with $1000 rebate $800 below invoice is a great deal, but if the rebate is $2000, it changes the picture, right?

[malecoke]

its generally 500-750,but then if you're dealing with hot models thats not likely to happen.

For example you're dreaming if you want 500 over cost for a 2010 Camry, corolla, Mazda3 etc.
But getting 500 over or better is possible on a lets say Sentra, Altima, Lancer, one of thsoe "secondary" choices.

[ak1004]

its generally 500-750,but then if you're dealing with hot models thats not likely to happen.

For example you're dreaming if you want 500 over cost for a 2010 Camry, corolla, Mazda3 etc.
But getting 500 over or better is possible on a lets say Sentra, Altima, Lancer, one of thsoe "secondary" choices.

Actually my friend bought a Corolla few months ago for $500 over invoice including all fees (freight and taxes extra of course).

CR-V is considered pretty hot too, but I was offered $450 over invoice by one dealer and $550 over invoice by another. The best thing to do is sending an email to 20-30 dealers and ask for their best price.

[hugh chung]

its generally 500-750,but then if you're dealing with hot models thats not likely to happen.

For example you're dreaming if you want 500 over cost for a 2010 Camry, corolla, Mazda3 etc.
But getting 500 over or better is possible on a lets say Sentra, Altima, Lancer, one of thsoe "secondary" choices.

is the accord 2009 considered a "hot" choice though? its a secondary choice for me

[ES_Revenge]

When you say “under invoice” I assume you take into consideration the factory rebates, otherwise it would be under cost (which would cause the dealer consistently to sell at lost). But it really depends on the rebate. For the car with $1000 rebate $800 below invoice is a great deal, but if the rebate is $2000, it changes the picture, right?

Actually I totally misread the person's post that I quoted above, so I have to edit my own post to make it make sense now, lol.

As for under invoice, I mean under invoice, factory rebates aside. The dealer is NOT selling at a loss doing that in most cases. Again this is an error in the thinking of consumers. There's a reason it's called "invoice price" pricing and not "dealer cost".

[ak1004]

Actually I totally misread the person's post that I quoted above, so I have to edit my own post to make it make sense now, lol.

As for under invoice, I mean under invoice, factory rebates aside. The dealer is NOT selling at a loss doing that in most cases. Again this is an error in the thinking of consumers. There's a reason it's called "invoice price" pricing and not "dealer cost".

Sorry, I’m still not clear.
Let’s say the MSRP is 20k, invoice is 18k and the is 2k rebate. $800 under invoice is 17.2k or 15.2k?

[newbieparadise]

Edit: I totally misread this as saying over invoice at first. Though I think $800 under invoice is a little too optimistic I don't think getting under invoice in some amount, is out of the question. At least getting a price very near to invoice should be more common than the standard Canadian screwjob.

It's sad that it is common of Canadians buying cars to be bargaining on MSRP "with invoice pricing in mind" rather than just straight bargaining on invoice pricing.

In the US, many customers walk out the door until they are talking $$$ under the invoice price. And of course MSRPs are already lower in the US to begin with. A person from the US once posted on RFD after moving to Canada about how they were shocked at how Canadian dealerships did "negotiations". He said it was like going back to the 1980s I believe, lol.

I think if the attitudes of Canadian consumers were a bit different, we would be seeing sales under invoice price as common as well.

That said, this is Canada, so I'd have to say $500 over invoice is a "great" deal on a lot of cars. Also depending on the make, you may not even be able to get anywhere near that either--again said, but just the way it is.

haha, i was actually joking/dreaming. i would be happy with 500 over invoice, but just not with the current prices of the accord v6 coupe! i should offer 500 under cost just to get it back to march levels.

[ES_Revenge]

Sorry, I’m still not clear.
Let’s say the MSRP is 20k, invoice is 18k and the is 2k rebate. $800 under invoice is 17.2k or 15.2k?

$800 under invoice would be $17.2k and then you get the $2k rebate on top of that. That's my thinking of it anyway. However I don't think that $800 under invoice is that realistic anyway and certainly not going to happen in Canada very often either.

Furthermore lower cost cars (like one that would be $18k to begin with) don't usually have as much discount to be had either.

The thing is there are usually hidden manufacturer-to-dealer credits, incentives, and kickbacks that you never see. Plus not to metion all the things like freight, PDI, admin, etc., where the dealer grabs even more money on the sale; nevermind that a lot of dealers also sucker people into things like etching, rustproofing, overpriced tinting, add-on accessories, etc., all of which are relatively big profit centres for the dealer.

Virtually any dealer can sell almost any car, at invoice price and still be making lots of money once all is said and done. Then after the sale they'll be making a killing on service too as many people go back to the stealership for maintenance/service, but that's a bit outside the scope here.

[ak1004]

$800 under invoice would be $17.2k and then you get the $2k rebate on top of that. That's my thinking of it anyway. However I don't think that $800 under invoice is that realistic anyway and certainly not going to happen in Canada very often either.

Furthermore lower cost cars (like one that would be $18k to begin with) don't usually have as much discount to be had either.

The thing is there are usually hidden manufacturer-to-dealer credits, incentives, and kickbacks that you never see. Plus not to metion all the things like freight, PDI, admin, etc., where the dealer grabs even more money on the sale; nevermind that a lot of dealers also sucker people into things like etching, rustproofing, overpriced tinting, add-on accessories, etc., all of which are relatively big profit centres for the dealer.

Virtually any dealer can sell almost any car, at invoice price and still be making lots of money once all is said and done. Then after the sale they'll be making a killing on service too as many people go back to the stealership for maintenance/service, but that's a bit outside the scope here.

CCC and APA are usually pretty accurate on showing all factory incentives. I was offered couple of years ago a Dodge Caravan at invoice, but CCC showed 2% factory holdback, and this was the dealer profit (about $400). The profit on freight/PDI is very low since the dealer pays it to the factory, and if you refuse to pay all those etching, rustproofing and obscure admin fees, I don’t see how the dealer can sell at $800 below cost. He has no guarantee that you will come back for service, so he cannot count on that.

[pkfk13]

2% to 3% is the general range of holdbacks, and it is calculated as a percentage of either the MSRP, or INVOICE (depending on manufacturer - check this link for a listing - not sure of it's accuracy, but it gives you an idea).
http://www.dealershipdiplomat.com/de...-Holdback.html

So yes, if you buy the car at INVOICE price, and subtract any rebates from that amount, then the dealer's profit from holdback allowance is this 2-3% of the MSRP or INVOICE (depending on the manufacturer's formula).

This profit in the holdback allowance on say a 30K car (MSRP) would be about 600 bucks, assuming a 2% holdback (imports seem to be 2% and domesics about 3% holdback).

Note that this holdback allowance is supposed to help pay for the finance charges to keep the cars in inventory for you to look at. Most Canadian dealers are not willing to let this holdback go to the buyer as part of the deal.

So back to my original post - if you offer say 500 over invoice, and the dealer is getting 500-600 in holdback, then they are making a cool grand on the deal.

However - many people are willing to only take a 500 or 600 reduction in the MSRP, and then pay $300+ for etching, etc.....and then the dealer is possibly making thousands of that one sale ! Just make sure YOUR deal is not one of those max profit deals !