Real Estate

How renting in Toronto has become a total nightmare

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 15th, 2017 2:10 pm
Newbie
Jul 8, 2017
89 posts
65 upvotes
NA
Ceryx wrote:
Sep 9th, 2017 5:20 pm
You can't evict the tenant unless the transaction is made.

So this means that the buyer need to buy when tenant is there without much renovation, which is unlikely now.

The law was created because people are trying to evict tenant by increase rent so they can sell the place. If they can sell as is, there won't be rent control in the first place.
What if I evict the tenant, pay him 1 month, move into the unit, renovate the place and then sell it?
Deal Addict
Jan 16, 2009
3623 posts
1341 upvotes
Toronto
Silver1234 wrote:
Sep 9th, 2017 9:59 pm
What if I evict the tenant, pay him 1 month, move into the unit, renovate the place and then sell it?
It would work if your tenant doesn't find out and come back to sue you. Technically, you are moving in, not because you want to sell the place. You can only do that after 12 months when you say you move in.

I would imagine one month rent reduce that possibilities as most tenant will move on.
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2011
1676 posts
1475 upvotes
Toronto
Ceryx wrote:
Sep 9th, 2017 6:55 pm
Yes believe in whatever you want. With rate continues to trend, demand will continue to deteriorate and good luck finding buyer when the other listing are empty without tenants.
Oh I don't plan on selling for 10+ years, you can predict the future if you like I don't really care
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2011
1676 posts
1475 upvotes
Toronto
It's pretty funny to me that when interest rates were cut and we were in a recession everyone here was adamant it would crash the market. Now the rates are going up because the economy is booming and everyone is again adamant it will crash RE. You'd think RE was in a nonstop downward cycle. The real irony is it's went up long term over the last 200 years.
Deal Addict
Jan 16, 2009
3623 posts
1341 upvotes
Toronto
rjg4235 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 10:29 am
It's pretty funny to me that when interest rates were cut and we were in a recession everyone here was adamant it would crash the market. Now the rates are going up because the economy is booming and everyone is again adamant it will crash RE. You'd think RE was in a nonstop downward cycle. The real irony is it's went up long term over the last 200 years.
LOL. It goes up in the last fifty years because of working population growth, baby boomer.

Now with the society turns old, the real estate will be like Japan who turns aging society that drags down the economy.

The point of the thread is, you cant evict the tenant without paying one month of a rent unless you can find buyer with tenant in it, which is unlikely in the current market conditions.

Got you triggered. Ha
Deal Expert
User avatar
Jan 27, 2004
36506 posts
2445 upvotes
Toronto
rjg4235 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 10:29 am
It's pretty funny to me that when interest rates were cut and we were in a recession everyone here was adamant it would crash the market. Now the rates are going up because the economy is booming and everyone is again adamant it will crash RE. You'd think RE was in a nonstop downward cycle. The real irony is it's went up long term over the last 200 years.
In the bigger picture... of life... Buy what you need :)
IF you can afford a house and want all that space... Go for it!
IF you can't afford a house... But always wanted a space you can own for yourself... Condo's really aren't a bad idea.
IF you can't afford anything... Renting isn't a bad idea either. IF you get your act together... You can bank your savings, invest wisely, and have a decent retirement.
Jr. Member
Jun 19, 2017
162 posts
305 upvotes
rjg4235 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 10:29 am
It's pretty funny to me that when interest rates were cut and we were in a recession everyone here was adamant it would crash the market. Now the rates are going up because the economy is booming and everyone is again adamant it will crash RE. You'd think RE was in a nonstop downward cycle. The real irony is it's went up long term over the last 200 years.
Sure, the stock market is also up over the last 200 years, but if I said that I was going to borrow 5 times my income and invest it in Coke, most people wouldn't argue with the thought that there is risk in making that investment. It's all about the leverage and surviving the bumps along the way.

It's the leverage levels in the real estate market that is concerning in a rising rate environment. In reading your posts you emphasize that are in good shape and can absorb any volatility, that is great, but this isn't about you, it's about the market as a whole, are they in the same situation as you are? Are they as prudent at managing risk and as careful about their levels of leverage, and their abilities to absorb rising rates or unexpected expences or vacancies or problem Tennant's, etc.

I think some people will be hurt by this; as for market prices the stress tests will have a much larger influence in the short term. Ultimately prices will continue to go up, that is simply because cash will be worth less, but the question is how long will it go down before it goes back up, and will this hurt any investors, and will I get an adequate return on my equity relative to risk?
Deal Addict
Feb 9, 2009
4364 posts
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Qrewpt wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 11:49 am
Sure, the stock market is also up over the last 200 years, but if I said that I was going to borrow 5 times my income and invest it in Coke, most people wouldn't argue with the thought that there is risk in making that investment. It's all about the leverage and surviving the bumps along the way.

It's the leverage levels in the real estate market that is concerning in a rising rate environment. In reading your posts you emphasize that are in good shape and can absorb any volatility, that is great, but this isn't about you, it's about the market as a whole, are they in the same situation as you are? Are they as prudent at managing risk and as careful about their levels of leverage, and their abilities to absorb rising rates or unexpected expences or vacancies or problem Tennant's, etc.

I think some people will be hurt by this; as for market prices the stress tests will have a much larger influence in the short term. Ultimately prices will continue to go up, that is simply because cash will be worth less, but the question is how long will it go down before it goes back up, and will this hurt any investors, and will I get an adequate return on my equity relative to risk?
To be fair Toronto prices have come down a bit. Stock prices are at all time highs nearly. I think stock investors are getting quite cocky as a raising rate environment over time will also hinder the stock market. Those who invested in FANG stocks or other growth names will see those names come down huge during a big stock market correction.

Even if Toronto RE still corrected a little more, your using little leverage and getting a tenant to pay off the mortgage (of course if rates went from today to say 7% it would kill a lot of people, I dont see it jumping that much anyways)... the whole part of being rich in RE. You dont have a tenant paying off your loan with stocks. If you buy at the right time, you sell, pay your cap gains and loan and keep the profit... if stocks crash then well.. your SOL. Yes some tenants can be trouble but most pay their rent on time and dont bother you.

RE is much less likely to crash than stocks. And iM a big stock investor I have name in CDN banks, telco, etc but stop comparing the two people... some are more comfortable with RE.... some with stocks... some people understand RE more than stocks... some people understand stocks more than RE... either way long-term you cant go wrong for sure, it's just what you want to invest in that is right FOR YOU as long as you dont go crazy with leverage....
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2011
1676 posts
1475 upvotes
Toronto
Qrewpt wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 11:49 am
Sure, the stock market is also up over the last 200 years, but if I said that I was going to borrow 5 times my income and invest it in Coke, most people wouldn't argue with the thought that there is risk in making that investment. It's all about the leverage and surviving the bumps along the way.

It's the leverage levels in the real estate market that is concerning in a rising rate environment. In reading your posts you emphasize that are in good shape and can absorb any volatility, that is great, but this isn't about you, it's about the market as a whole, are they in the same situation as you are? Are they as prudent at managing risk and as careful about their levels of leverage, and their abilities to absorb rising rates or unexpected expences or vacancies or problem Tennant's, etc.

I think some people will be hurt by this; as for market prices the stress tests will have a much larger influence in the short term. Ultimately prices will continue to go up, that is simply because cash will be worth less, but the question is how long will it go down before it goes back up, and will this hurt any investors, and will I get an adequate return on my equity relative to risk?
There is no doubt people will be burned badly by a downturn in RE. I don't think that's unique to this market though. People have been known to jump out of buildings during a stock crash as well.

It's not really complicated. Diversify and don't over extend yourself, make more than you spend. People on this sub worry too much though. In the end if you follow these rules you'll be fine. The market and economy have managed to survive much worse things than this. To assume we are in some end of days situation is fairly arrogant and an example of recency bias.
Last edited by rjg4235 on Sep 10th, 2017 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
Feb 9, 2009
4364 posts
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http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m ... 617001001/

By the way new arena in Detroit opened... 750 square foot apartments near it will be going for about $1500 ... this is midtown Detroit folks, not much going on besides the stadiums/arena... so if rent there is $1500, no doubt $2000-$3000 is justified now in many parts of the city here...
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User avatar
Mar 23, 2003
2965 posts
280 upvotes
Hamilton
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhom ... 8401-38347

10 min drive if you buy it!!!!!!!!!
here's the SAT view.
[removed]
EDIT:
sorry, didn't know short links not allowed.?
here's a full link.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Little+C ... 42.3925115
Last edited by Mars2012 on Sep 10th, 2017 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: reported/shortened link removed
Jr. Member
Jun 19, 2017
162 posts
305 upvotes
rjg4235 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 12:30 pm
There is no doubt people will be burned badly by a downturn in RE. I don't think that's unique to this market though. People have been known to jump out of buildings during a stock crash as well.

It's not really complicated. Diversify and don't over extend yourself, make more than you spend. People on this sub worry too much though. In the end if you follow these rules you'll be fine. The market and economy have managed to survive much worse things than this. To assume we are in some end of days situation is fairly arrogant and an example of recency bias.
Thanks for the advice, but I think there are many people out there who arent heeding it. The rental properties on whole still seem priced for perfection, and should at least have a bit of a rising rate, rent control and slower appreciation discount cooked in. Nobody said anything about end of days.

People who don't worry about taking on high leverage just don't know yet that they should worry.
" It ain't what you don’t know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain’t so."

Another thing that crossed my mind, I'm not too keen on the condo market despite its past performed and rising rents. When I look back to the 90s RE decline, I noticed that there was a really tight rental market leading up to the decline, much more so than now. Then when things turned bad, vacancies started increasing, home sales declined, I'm just wondering where those people went, and if something like that would happen again, how the condo rental market Wood handle it.
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2011
1676 posts
1475 upvotes
Toronto
Qrewpt wrote:
Sep 11th, 2017 12:56 am
Another thing that crossed my mind, I'm not too keen on the condo market despite its past performed and rising rents. When I look back to the 90s RE decline, I noticed that there was a really tight rental market leading up to the decline, much more so than now. Then when things turned bad, vacancies started increasing, home sales declined, I'm just wondering where those people went, and if something like that would happen again, how the condo rental market Wood handle it.
I'm sure the recession had a lot to do with that. Plus a lot of people being wiped out on Black Monday. I assume people downsized, moved back home etc.
Deal Addict
Feb 9, 2009
4364 posts
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sidshock wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 10:40 pm
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhom ... 8401-38347

10 min drive if you buy it!!!!!!!!!
here's the SAT view.
[removed]
EDIT:
sorry, didn't know short links not allowed.?
here's a full link.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Little+C ... 42.3925115
can only imagine the back taxes on this... not to mention the amount of people squatting in this place lol
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User avatar
Jul 17, 2008
7382 posts
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sidshock wrote:
Sep 10th, 2017 10:40 pm
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhom ... 8401-38347

10 min drive if you buy it!!!!!!!!!
here's the SAT view.
[removed]
EDIT:
sorry, didn't know short links not allowed.?
here's a full link.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Little+C ... 42.3925115
Buy it now, hold it for 25 years, and maybe you hit the jackpot if detroit all of the sudden spurs to life. Sell it for a few hundo k's, or millions.

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