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Indigenous people fight against racism in Thunder Bay

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  • Aug 10th, 2017 10:27 am
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Omonovb wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 12:23 am
Are we in Canada that different then in the U.S?? hmmmm

http://www.680news.com/2017/08/01/thund ... io-city-2/
Racism is human nature, or more precisely natural instinct. If you see a snake, you would be afraid although the vast majority of snakes are not poisonous and it's often quite easy to tell them apart. Unlike computers, our brain are not very good at details, so we use fuzzy logic to make decisions, which often includes stereotyping. On the flip side, it's very hard for computers to be fuzzy. A lot of work has to go into it for a computer to distinguish between different races since all humans look different to it. A computer has to learn to ignore details.

Immigrants also bring more pronounced racism into Canada, even against their own races sometime.

The trick is to avoid institutional racism, which is rather rare in Canada.

Having said that, sometimes stereotypes are just factually incorrect. That's where advocacy groups should help educate people. For example

Image

Although to be honest, it just make the three groups look really bad comparing to Asians.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 7:30 am
Racism is human nature, or more precisely natural instinct. If you see a snake, you would be afraid although the vast majority of snakes are not poisonous and it's often quite easy to tell them apart. Unlike computers, our brain are not very good at details, so we use fuzzy logic to make decisions, which often includes stereotyping. On the flip side, it's very hard for computers to be fuzzy. A lot of work has to go into it for a computer to distinguish between different races since all humans look different to it. A computer has to learn to ignore details.

Immigrants also bring more pronounced racism into Canada, even against their own races sometime.

The trick is to avoid institutional racism, which is rather rare in Canada.

Having said that, sometimes stereotypes are just factually incorrect. That's where advocacy groups should help educate people. For example


Although to be honest, it just make the three groups look really bad comparing to Asians.
what are you trying to say? asians cant afford drugs...?
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Kingmoo wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 8:43 am
what are you trying to say? asians cant afford drugs...?
LOL, exactly.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 7:30 am
Although to be honest, it just make the three groups look really bad comparing to Asians.
We yell at our kids. A lot. White people take note!
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Omonovb wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 12:23 am
Are we in Canada that different then in the U.S?? hmmmm

http://www.680news.com/2017/08/01/thund ... io-city-2/
What are you comparing between Canada and the US in regards to the aboriginals?
The article just says the tribes have "signed a pledge to fight racism". (I don't even know what that means....the nations will fight racism?)
Is it solipsistic here? Or is it just me?
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mr_raider wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 2:19 pm
We yell at our kids. A lot. White people take note!
Asian Grading Scale

Regular kids:
A = Great
B = Good
C = Average
D = Okay
F = Bad

Asians:
A = Average
B = Below average
C = Can't have dinner
D = Don't come home
F = Find a new family

I think I am being a racist now. :)

The point is that Asian got a stereotype (which is also not correct for each individual) for a reason (so kind of valid on average). Each ethnic group, including white, needs to examine themselves and figure out whether stereotypes associated with them are valid or not. If not, then they should educate people to get rid of the myth. If so, then they should resolve the root issue. Yes, people shouldn't use stereotypes, but that's how our brains default to.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 7:30 am
Immigrants also bring more pronounced racism into Canada, even against their own races sometime.
Many immigrants also don't share the same biases older immigrants do. Some learned the chain of despise over time while others remain ignorant to such biases.
Archanfel wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 7:30 am
The trick is to avoid institutional racism, which is rather rare in Canada.
Given 24 hours, how many indigenous persons can you locate in downtown financial district?

Not even going to mention Canadian of African origin.

The problem is the structural issues that institutional racism creates, and one day everyone pay for the price. If price to fix is high and only small group suffer, the rational choice is status quote, until the contempt exploded.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 2nd, 2017 3:22 pm
Asian Grading Scale

Regular kids:
A = Great
B = Good
C = Average
D = Okay
F = Bad

Asians:
A = Average
B = Below average
C = Can't have dinner
D = Don't come home
F = Find a new family


I think I am being a racist now. :)

The point is that Asian got a stereotype (which is also not correct for each individual) for a reason (so kind of valid on average). Each ethnic group, including white, needs to examine themselves and figure out whether stereotypes associated with them are valid or not. If not, then they should educate people to get rid of the myth. If so, then they should resolve the root issue. Yes, people shouldn't use stereotypes, but that's how our brains default to.
funny you think A is enough

A++: brags about it to other asian families
A+: So and So's kid is better
A: why don't you study past midnight everynight?
A- or below: Bring shame to family...
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 7th, 2017 7:24 pm
Many immigrants also don't share the same biases older immigrants do. Some learned the chain of despise over time while others remain ignorant to such biases.


Given 24 hours, how many indigenous persons can you locate in downtown financial district?

Not even going to mention Canadian of African origin.

The problem is the structural issues that institutional racism creates, and one day everyone pay for the price. If price to fix is high and only small group suffer, the rational choice is status quote, until the contempt exploded.
What are the "structural issues" you spoke of? As far as I know, there's no institutional barriers for visible minorities or natives to get into school and get good grades. In fact, Asians are stereotyped to be excellent academically, more so than white and even when they come from poorer families.

Given 24 hours, how many dinosaurs can you locate on earth? Was that due to "structural issues" as well?
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 7th, 2017 9:12 pm
Given 24 hours, how many dinosaurs can you locate on earth? Was that due to "structural issues" as well?
Dinosaurs don't set policies to round up another group of animals to a defined area and forcibly eliminate their heritage through educational institutions.
Archanfel wrote:
Aug 7th, 2017 9:12 pm
What are the "structural issues" you spoke of? As far as I know, there's no institutional barriers for visible minorities or natives to get into school and get good grades. In fact, Asians are stereotyped to be excellent academically, more so than white and even when they come from poorer families.
There's government aboriginal committees that had the social science down. For example, household income, geographic dispersion, crime, poverty so on. Your local representative would have info if you asked.

There had been two main multiracial approaches in human history with many versions of something in between:
1. Each race conserves their own heritage but contribute (special tax or skills) and learn to coexist i.e. not to impose own values onto others
2. Each race eliminates their own heritage and conform to a dominant culture (either existing or foreign), i.e. adopt new last name

If history is any guide, both of the above failed and when it fails, it coincides with mass migration and population decline. Our current so-called Canadian multiculturalism at best is another social experiment, it works until it doesn't. In US, you get the BLM reincarnation. In EU, the migrant crisis. Canada simply has more abundance thus our cycle longer. But give it enough time, this can still happen.
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 7th, 2017 10:16 pm
Dinosaurs don't set policies to round up another group of animals to a defined area and forcibly eliminate their heritage through educational institutions.


There's government aboriginal committees that had the social science down. For example, household income, geographic dispersion, crime, poverty so on. Your local representative would have info if you asked.

There had been two main multiracial approaches in human history with many versions of something in between:
1. Each race conserves their own heritage but contribute (special tax or skills) and learn to coexist i.e. not to impose own values onto others
2. Each race eliminates their own heritage and conform to a dominant culture (either existing or foreign), i.e. adopt new last name

If history is any guide, both of the above failed and when it fails, it coincides with mass migration and population decline. Our current so-called Canadian multiculturalism at best is another social experiment, it works until it doesn't. In US, you get the BLM reincarnation. In EU, the migrant crisis. Canada simply has more abundance thus our cycle longer. But give it enough time, this can still happen.
Again, what are the "structure issues" you spoke of? I would imagine immigrants (including the original Europeans) with nothing more than clothes on their back would have lower household income, greater geographic dispersion, higher crimes and more poverty. If they can be successful, what are aboriginal's excuses. Surely it's easier to move from a reserve to Toronto than from UK, China or India. What makes it harder for an aboriginal kid to get through school and get a job in the financial district as you so desired?

If I am not mistake, the aboriginal societies did fail and failed pretty spectacularly. They never developed advanced science or highly organized society. That's how the Europeans took over. BLM is nothing new. In fact, the riots in the US pales in comparison to the ones in the 70s and 80s. The migrant crisis has nothing to do with Europeans, it was the Syrians killing each other despite belonging to the same race. (My guess is race is not an issue in Syria, nor an issue in Canada. Culture is what matters).

Anything can happen, but you haven't made a convincing case that there is institutional racism today or "structural issues" that we need to or can address. All I see is a victimhood culture. Whether such feeling has any historical basis is irrelevant, the only thing matters is who would survive. The dinosaurs died out because they couldn't adapt to a changing environment. The same thing happens today as our environment is constantly changing and at greater speed than ever. Whoever can adapt would survive, those who can't would perish. I very much would like to see aboriginals succeed and I fully acknowledge that life is not fair, but it's pointless to blame others and it's mostly up to them. All we can do is to make sure there's no more institutional racism regardless what happened in history.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 7th, 2017 10:50 pm
Again, what are the "structure issues" you spoke of? I would imagine immigrants (including the original Europeans) with nothing more than clothes on their back would have lower household income, greater geographic dispersion, higher crimes and more poverty. If they can be successful, what are aboriginal's excuses. Surely it's easier to move from a reserve to Toronto than from UK, China or India. What makes it harder for an aboriginal kid to get through school and get a job in the financial district as you so desired?

If I am not mistake, the aboriginal societies did fail and failed pretty spectacularly. They never developed advanced science or highly organized society. That's how the Europeans took over. BLM is nothing new. In fact, the riots in the US pales in comparison to the ones in the 70s and 80s. The migrant crisis has nothing to do with Europeans, it was the Syrians killing each other despite belonging to the same race. (My guess is race is not an issue in Syria, nor an issue in Canada. Culture is what matters).

Anything can happen, but you haven't made a convincing case that there is institutional racism today or "structural issues" that we need to or can address. All I see is a victimhood culture. Whether such feeling has any historical basis is irrelevant, the only thing matters is who would survive. The dinosaurs died out because they couldn't adapt to a changing environment. The same thing happens today as our environment is constantly changing and at greater speed than ever. Whoever can adapt would survive, those who can't would perish. I very much would like to see aboriginals succeed and I fully acknowledge that life is not fair, but it's pointless to blame others and it's mostly up to them. All we can do is to make sure there's no more institutional racism regardless what happened in history.
When a survey's R value exceeds 60-80% i.e. crime/suicides, I'd say there already lies structural issues. But if you ask me what are the root causes, I can only say it would be complicated.

I agree, no excuse in terms of outcome. But considering them as citizen or being of equal, they are obviously suffering. So maybe it's time to look from their POV and see what works to improve their footing.

BLM seemed to be a another surge of the same cycle. So yes, it will persist, until it gets closure which is next to impossible.

Yes, Syrian had tribal conflicts which I took as race/cultural. No I meant how European govts dealt with migrants on top of the middle eastern immigrants and Muslim citizens. Point, racial issue is too delicate to mess up, and even EU is messing up.

Eliminating social mobility barriers should be first step. Helping someone to recover from past wrong doesn't mean all pain, it just means we are stronger now and can deal with it. I would not want our govts to leave history unresolved and let some lunatic/special interests to use it to divide us or milking taxpayers. Really fixing the issue is to help the first nations to regain their own identity and establish link to our economy development than giving out meaningless grants.

I respect your point about competition. From my perspective, the competition is also among nations, not just individuals, so we can all win as individuals.
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 12:02 am
When a survey's R value exceeds 60-80% i.e. crime/suicides, I'd say there already lies structural issues. But if you ask me what are the root causes, I can only say it would be complicated.

I agree, no excuse in terms of outcome. But considering them as citizen or being of equal, they are obviously suffering. So maybe it's time to look from their POV and see what works to improve their footing.

BLM seemed to be a another surge of the same cycle. So yes, it will persist, until it gets closure which is next to impossible.

Yes, Syrian had tribal conflicts which I took as race/cultural. No I meant how European govts dealt with migrants on top of the middle eastern immigrants and Muslim citizens. Point, racial issue is too delicate to mess up, and even EU is messing up.

Eliminating social mobility barriers should be first step. Helping someone to recover from past wrong doesn't mean all pain, it just means we are stronger now and can deal with it. I would not want our govts to leave history unresolved and let some lunatic/special interests to use it to divide us or milking taxpayers. Really fixing the issue is to help the first nations to regain their own identity and establish link to our economy development than giving out meaningless grants.

I respect your point about competition. From my perspective, the competition is also among nations, not just individuals, so we can all win as individuals.
BLM will continue no matter what they do just like children would cry no matter how you spoil them. In the mean time, Asians without "ALM" are doing just fine. According to wikipedia: "Asians as a whole are seen as hardworking, politically inactive, studious, intelligent, productive, and inoffensive people who have elevated their social standing through merit and diligence." Why? Misconception or is there any statistical truth to it?

Again, what are the "social mobility barriers"? I still haven't seen a single example. I see aboriginal communities suffer from alcoholism, broken families, lack of education and living in the wrong places. None of them is institutional (i.e. nobody forced them to drink, have unprotected sex, drop out of school or live in a certain place) and can not be overcome through individual efforts. If anything, I'd say we spoil them to a fault. I have no doubt that they suffered greatly historically (although no more than they would if Europeans didn't come), but that's irrelevant. The question is how they can get out of it.

I totally agree that we compete among nations (or more precisely societies as nations come and go). Therefore, I am very open to any suggestions on improve our society as a whole. If giving an aboriginal kid $1 would ensure that he/she go through school and give $5 back, I would totally support it. Yet I have seen any concrete plan or even suggestions how that can be achieved. As a taxpayer, if I am asked to invest in something, I would like to see a cost/benefit analysis and a feasibility study, not just it's the right thing to do.

I don't believe there are only those two ways. I believe it's important for cultures to learn from one another, discard backward beliefs (much like we lost our tails despite them being heritage) yet remain distinct from one another, hopefully better all of them and work together as a society. IMHO, things like BLM and aboriginal "heritage" are often the barriers rather than the solution. The solution might be to show some tough love and tie social assistance to individual efforts.

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