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Indigenous people fight against racism in Thunder Bay

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  • Aug 10th, 2017 10:27 am
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Have you ever been to Thunder Bay? probably not. The reserves outside of Thunder Bay kick their worst people out. They gravitate to Thunder Bay where they continue and even ramp up their life of boredom and crime. They wander the streets day and night. Go live there for a month and get back to me. The problem, as I see it, is that they have nothing to do...no purpose. Not unlike many people of all races. We all need a purpose, be it a career or just helping people. I wish we could solve "our native problem" , but I think every government sees it as something that will either go away on it's own or simply die off. It's very sad and demeaning to a proud and amazing people.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 1:09 am
BLM will continue no matter what they do just like children would cry no matter how you spoil them. In the mean time, Asians without "ALM" are doing just fine. According to wikipedia: "Asians as a whole are seen as hardworking, politically inactive, studious, intelligent, productive, and inoffensive people who have elevated their social standing through merit and diligence." Why? Misconception or is there any statistical truth to it?
I think there is truth to it. Many of them were natives who lived thousands of years in highly dense, and specialized cities. To keep those society working, education/skills were key to mobility thus to stability. None of the stuff is secret, it was proven way to prosperity. Saving rate/food preservation is another measure, resilience to external shocks.
Archanfel wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 1:09 am
Again, what are the "social mobility barriers"? I still haven't seen a single example. I see aboriginal communities suffer from alcoholism, broken families, lack of education and living in the wrong places. None of them is institutional (i.e. nobody forced them to drink, have unprotected sex, drop out of school or live in a certain place) and can not be overcome through individual efforts. If anything, I'd say we spoil them to a fault. I have no doubt that they suffered greatly historically (although no more than they would if Europeans didn't come), but that's irrelevant. The question is how they can get out of it.

I totally agree that we compete among nations (or more precisely societies as nations come and go). Therefore, I am very open to any suggestions on improve our society as a whole. If giving an aboriginal kid $1 would ensure that he/she go through school and give $5 back, I would totally support it. Yet I have seen any concrete plan or even suggestions how that can be achieved. As a taxpayer, if I am asked to invest in something, I would like to see a cost/benefit analysis and a feasibility study, not just it's the right thing to do.

I don't believe there are only those two ways. I believe it's important for cultures to learn from one another, discard backward beliefs (much like we lost our tails despite them being heritage) yet remain distinct from one another, hopefully better all of them and work together as a society. IMHO, things like BLM and aboriginal "heritage" are often the barriers rather than the solution. The solution might be to show some tough love and tie social assistance to individual efforts.
The top down greed-driven colonial way of thinking needs to switch to be more bottom-up organic, not just for the first nations, but for making up the gap between rural and urban in general. Have you wonder why no immigrants wanted to go to smaller cities?

Chinese Communists had mandates which lifted 600 millions out of bottom of barrel poverty. Basically they spent money building economic and infrastructure linkages so modern resources can go rural.

Rural also suffers from less educational resources but internet and open Univs are on the rise. Willingness for high quality staff to go to those rural places are still issues.

For first nation specifically they need to reconnect with their roots/values/culture which kept them running for 1,000 or 10,000 of years. They picked up all our modern society corruptions but lacked the time to learn to resolve it. Maybe additional courses such as their own heritage and family values. It's no difference kids of new immigrants immediately picked up vices on arrival. They become in-between by dropping their original values without fully acquiring modern Canadian values.
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 12:37 pm

For first nation specifically they need to reconnect with their roots/values/culture which kept them running for 1,000 or 10,000 of years. They picked up all our modern society corruptions but lacked the time to learn to resolve it. Maybe additional courses such as their own heritage and family values. It's no difference kids of new immigrants immediately picked up vices on arrival. They become in-between by dropping their original values without fully acquiring modern Canadian values.
So I really am curious what these roots/values/cultures are that you think first nations need to reconnect to.
You do understand that there were thousands of different tribes in the Americas and they all had their own cultures and values, just like every other "tribe" throughout history.
Some tribes practised cannibalism. I hope you don't think that should be revived.
Why is it that you think native tribes led some sort of utopian existence?
How do you think reconnecting to a past that doesn't exist will help them in todays world?
Should they all go live in teepees and long houses again?
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Kaz wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 12:55 pm
So I really am curious what these roots/values/cultures are that you think first nations need to reconnect to.
You do understand that there were thousands of different tribes in the Americas and they all had their own cultures and values, just like every other "tribe" throughout history.
Some tribes practised cannibalism. I hope you don't think that should be revived.
Why is it that you think native tribes led some sort of utopian existence?
How do you think reconnecting to a past that doesn't exist will help them in todays world?
Should they all go live in teepees and long houses again?
lol I was thinking Canada Goose.

You need to consider the demographic factors for being on a reserve.

For educating young children, each is it's own. Asian mothers have karma education. Christians mothers have the bible and Jewish have the Talmud. The first nations had something, and at the core, they should be basically resort to something universal, do to others as you want to be treated. When one reaches maturity, each is free to choose their own. If you leave it blank, corruption will take over. What does the first nations have left anymore?

If we can provide Canadian values we should, but what does Canadian values even mean? As far as I can remember, there is not one concrete course or book that teaches secular and universal morale values in Canadian schools. Most acquire through churches on Saturday, socializing or your own family's heritage. This begs the question what is multiculturalism, should we appoint one dominant culture i.e. European Canadian, or each is free to choose including their heritage, or something in between? alternatively, for Canada to be a civilization state, should first nations be considered another ethnic group like any others or a special group exists outside/above/below of all other groups?
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 8th, 2017 12:37 pm
I think there is truth to it. Many of them were natives who lived thousands of years in highly dense, and specialized cities. To keep those society working, education/skills were key to mobility thus to stability. None of the stuff is secret, it was proven way to prosperity. Saving rate/food preservation is another measure, resilience to external shocks.


The top down greed-driven colonial way of thinking needs to switch to be more bottom-up organic, not just for the first nations, but for making up the gap between rural and urban in general. Have you wonder why no immigrants wanted to go to smaller cities?

Chinese Communists had mandates which lifted 600 millions out of bottom of barrel poverty. Basically they spent money building economic and infrastructure linkages so modern resources can go rural.

Rural also suffers from less educational resources but internet and open Univs are on the rise. Willingness for high quality staff to go to those rural places are still issues.

For first nation specifically they need to reconnect with their roots/values/culture which kept them running for 1,000 or 10,000 of years. They picked up all our modern society corruptions but lacked the time to learn to resolve it. Maybe additional courses such as their own heritage and family values. It's no difference kids of new immigrants immediately picked up vices on arrival. They become in-between by dropping their original values without fully acquiring modern Canadian values.
Chinese communists killed millions if not tens of millions and achieved almost nothing other than making people finally give up on communism. It was capitalism (or mercantilism to be precise) that lifted 600 millions out of poverty. I can assure you, natives would not have lasted under Chinese communism who tried to destroy all heritages.

There's a reason people move to big cities. It's a lot less expensive to provide services in high density urban area. There's also little economical reason for a lot of people to stay in rural areas with agriculture being automated. Ironically, Chinese moved to big cities by the millions instead of waiting for education resources in rural area. If natives want to get out poverty, they need to move to big cities. The reserves are not viable and would trap them.

There's no single roots/values/culture among the tribes of aboriginals. And even if there was, it failed them. Give me one example of native scientist or higher education institute or a working democracy before the Europeans came over. If their value was "to others as you want to be treated", then I would be glad for them to pay me subsidies or stop accepting subsidies from us. I am afraid that It's not their value at all. They were killing each other long before (and long after) the arrival of Europeans. I don't mind they keep whatever roots/values/culture they thought they had, but those things would not bring them success. Unless their entire race was to be native artists, they would need to learn things from other cultures like hard work, creative thinking, personal responsibilities. I do agree with you that they are trapped in between, but there's no evidence that moving back to their "heritage" would do them any good since the old way (if there was a way) does not fit the current environment. We should help them to pick up new skills and adapt to the new reality, but it can't be unconditional subsidy.
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What about this culture is worth holding onto at this point?

Seems like the Mennonites have done better at maintaining their traditional lifestyles, but even they have had to make compromises to sustain themselves as a going concern.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 9th, 2017 8:20 am
I do agree with you that they are trapped in between, but there's no evidence that moving back to their "heritage" would do them any good since the old way (if there was a way) does not fit the current environment. We should help them to pick up new skills and adapt to the new reality, but it can't be unconditional subsidy.
This was the whole point of the residential schools, but because that was done in a haphazard way it's off the books forever. I think the residential school idea took the view that the cultures were too different to bridge and that you really needed to do a wholesale cultural transplant, which may not be too far from the truth.
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mbg wrote:
Aug 9th, 2017 7:04 pm
This was the whole point of the residential schools, but because that was done in a haphazard way it's off the books forever. I think the residential school idea took the view that the cultures were too different to bridge and that you really needed to do a wholesale cultural transplant, which may not be too far from the truth.
Didn't know those schools were this bad?

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mbg wrote:
Aug 9th, 2017 7:04 pm
This was the whole point of the residential schools, but because that was done in a haphazard way it's off the books forever. I think the residential school idea took the view that the cultures were too different to bridge and that you really needed to do a wholesale cultural transplant, which may not be too far from the truth.
I have no doubt that they had very good intentions (maybe I am naive, but I believe most people are decent people who want to help), but it was implemented pretty badly. They basically taught them one superstition over another. Not much of an improvement.

More importantly, it's one of those one size fits all solution, which almost never work. A far better way is to provide loans, so that hard working students can attend schools of their choices. The goal should never be to force people into something, but to help them on a road of their choosing as long as it's beneficial to society as well.

However, I do believe education loans (including OSAP for all students) should be paid back in full with high interests (as any unsecured loan would be) after graduation since the whole point is these students would contribute to society. I also don't see any reason to do anything special for natives since we should help anybody who is willing to help themselves.
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Archanfel wrote:
Aug 9th, 2017 9:54 pm
More importantly, it's one of those one size fits all solution, which almost never work. A far better way is to provide loans, so that hard working students can attend schools of their choices. The goal should never be to force people into something, but to help them on a road of their choosing as long as it's beneficial to society as well.
Private lenders are already there. Problem is payback given income.

So I still think economy development should be first priority. Otherwise the logic is circular, no return thus no lending.

Even just set up some modern telecom into the vast north would help. For instance, companies may set up entry level support offices at the remote villages, than those money going to India.

Yes we can ship individuals into major cities and my belief is many will prosper (without prejudice), but, we can't force someone to stay or go back and help others. Therefore the remote villages would still suffer.

Medicine only relief/suppress symptoms and in general doesn't heal, a live human bodies will by itself. Therefore, rolling back the heavy-hand approaches i.e. institutional barriers should be first step.

To facilitate healing from the damages we dealt, I think our intervention should be to help restore their cultural values to regain identity, to keep away from the more acute depression issues such as drugs and suicides. The rest would have to depend on their own power.
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LongLiveRFD wrote:
Aug 9th, 2017 10:31 pm
Private lenders are already there. Problem is payback given income.

So I still think economy development should be first priority. Otherwise the logic is circular, no return thus no lending.

Even just set up some modern telecom into the vast north would help. For instance, companies may set up entry level support offices at the remote villages, than those money going to India.

Yes we can ship individuals into major cities and my belief is many will prosper (without prejudice), but, we can't force someone to stay or go back and help others. Therefore the remote villages would still suffer.

Medicine only relief/suppress symptoms and in general doesn't heal, a live human bodies will by itself. Therefore, rolling back the heavy-hand approaches i.e. institutional barriers should be first step.

To facilitate healing from the damages we dealt, I think our intervention should be to help restore their cultural values to regain identity, to keep away from the more acute depression issues such as drugs and suicides. The rest would have to depend on their own power.
But why having remote villages at all? You are not going to find bay street jobs there. Find a job in Toronto and they can pay back the loans easily, with interests. There's no forcing involved. It's a choice they have to make themselves.

Again, I don't see any institutional barriers. The fact is that remote villages can't compete, whether the population was natives, white or Asian. Nothing to do with race. If they really want to live in remote villages, then they need to find their own niches. Not sure what that would be. Competing with Indians is not an option as that don't pay nearly enough.

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