Interesting Article -- Unemployed 29yo seeking a first job

[peanutz]

Quoted for truth.

While I disagree with a a few of the things you say, the majority of your posts are spot on. It makes me laugh watching people try to squirm and defend how they think things "should" be, as opposed to the hard facts about how they are.

Agreed! Mark is awesome. I remember some of your past posts, as well: also very good.

[got_it_4_cheap]

we are doomed

[peanutz]

A lovely post from G&M's comments section:

As a Human Resources Manager for a major financial institution, a "Boomer", and one who has hired hundreds of people during his career, I was deeply touched by the writer's article. Sadly, it is typical of the frustration and despair that many young people face today in landing their first position. I offer a few words in the hope that he and others may find something inspiring.

First, don't rely upon job postings and the internet. Most are a waste of time. Applicant tracking systems are designed to screen out individuals, not screen them into interviews.

Second, focus on small to medium-sized companies. Many of these organizations haven't the time, money or expertise to compete with large organizations. They are more likely to take a risk on someone who approaches them directly than would a large corporation with HR minions who, I'm sorry to say, are nothing but gate-keepers.

Third, use the direct approach. Forget e-mail. Everyone today is bombarded with e-mails. Craft a well-written letter, and follow up with a phone call a week later. Call early in the morning. Be polite. Be respectful. Ask for a few minutes of their time. Accommodate their time schedule.

Fourth, instead of networking at job fairs, join a job search group like HAPPEN, or better still, a business event or Chamber of Commerce function. Seek out those who are givers, not takers, and are prepared to offer you contacts as well as advice.

Fifth, volunteer, and use the experience to both develop transferable skills, bolster your resume, and make meaningful contacts. Many prominent business professionals sit on Boards of Directors, so make yourself known.

Sixth, use your alumnae contacts from your university or college. I'm a graduate of three universities, and I routinely get between six and twelve calls a year from prospective grads seeking advice or counsel.

Seventh, consider becoming an entrepreneur. Many young people are tech-savvy, and are imbued with considerable imagination, versatility and ingenuity. Entrepreneurship can be inspiring.

Finally, don't give up. Job search has never been easy. Our society has never mastered the ability to accurately determine staffing requirements, or match the right applicants with quality opportunities. It isn't a perfect science, and sadly, the race goes not to the swiftest, but to the most persistent.

Good luck!!

[Mark77]

peanutz, while that's good advice, and may put someone ahead of others, it still doesn't address the issue that is facing the contemporary economy, and that is, structural/embedded unemployment. Caused by, I would submit, terrible economic policy.

For instance, if a government job for, say, an executive, receives 1000 applications, why isn't the labour market flexible enough to reduce the pay of that job such that there is an equilibrium between the number of applicants, and the number of jobs (ie: 1) available?

Likewise, for professions, if there's a real shortage, why don't the salaries seem to go up, instead of the public being treated to a bunch of whining and complaining from HR folks that they can't find anyone (this was seen in Calgary, where business owners often complained that they couldn't find workers, but didn't want to raise salaries!)?

People are fed a lot of false signals because of this inflexibility. A Philosophy major might rack up debt and pursue a career plan based on reading somewhere that philosophy majors can make $100k/year as lawyers. Except that, when you look at the real-life statistics, exceedingly few of those Philosophy majors actually succeed. Likewise, even in my area of engineering, many of us probably believed we'd be millionaires at 30. I almost was, but practically nobody who I graduated with has a dime to their name outside of housing appreciation wealth.

[flight878]

Perhaps it's time for an overdue paradigm shift: university education, in its current form, is overrated. These bloated vampire institutions need major reform. Our Ontario education system needs reform; it needs to be harder. And lots of those high school guidance counselors need to be fired. We need a pin to pop the bubble of many misguided parents of our generation. The Canadian business mentality needs reform too. Work ethic in this country needs to improve.

Before people here wish to add to the article's commentary Schadenfreude, have fun with Summary Part 1 and Summary Part 2 (hat-tip to crazy Syne).

Times have changed. It's an employer's market, and now you know the truth of what they want. Back when I was in undergrad (2004-2008), a large amount of engineering grads (w/o co-op) had no trouble finding meaningful work when their experience from summer jobs were mediocre (e.g., grocery, call-center, manual labor) and their grades weren't so stellar. Lots of these kids had no choice but to return home to work, which was NOT always in the GTA nor Ottawa, nor a metropolitan area where you'd have a better chance of finding relevant work, but took whatever work was available to help pay for school. Employers valued more the transferable skills that could complement applicable skills gained from undergrad. Some reputable engineering graduate schools were desperate for students, that a few were willing to be flexible in the GPA cutoffs and even one took promising students with averages between 65-70%... Now, for example, UofT's ECE dept is pretty much saying you need an average of 80%+ with "research potential"... All grad schools are flooded with applicants. Today, if you graduate without relevant experience, you have zero experience. Co-op today feels like a must. Employers largely want relevant co-op experience, high grades (which weren't necessary before, and really aren't for excelling in most engineering jobs), and knowledge in crap they're too cheap and lazy to train that really, can be picked up fast by the astute neophyte on the field. The demand for specific experience has further propagated the factoid that arts degrees are useless, with the misguided belief that the degree shall define one's career path. Even with the super-duper engineering degree, most who go into the field will end up applying 15% of what was learned from the courses--the work world is hugely distinct from the ivory tower academia.

Well, the problem is lots of these employers say this isn't enough. This article mentioned that the government (...) should have skills-training programs to meet certain niggardly employers' needs (yes Corporate Canada, depend on the Big Nanny State when convenient for you), an initiative likely to fail. They say more immigration is needed to fill shortages. Our sycophant politicians lap this up like dogs licking up vomit, and despite these immigrants getting the flak from jobless Canadians, it's these type of immigrants who will get twice as screwed if their plans to get those low-wage meaningful jobs fail, as for many, returning to the home country is not as simple as canceling a business purchase order of 1000 widgets from X-Factory in Ohio. So they end up driving cabs, keeping those Bay Street buildings clean, etc., and pin the hopes on their kids succeeding here. In the long-term, these type of businesses won't be very profitable nor competitive.

This 29-year-old specimen, while a bit old in his predicament, is one of plenty of grads facing similar problems. Sure, some are entitled, but you'll always have a percentage of these kids that largely stems from incompetent and irresponsible upbringing. I went to a university that routinely has a high proportion of private, prep school grads coming in spoiled, entitled, that even got lots of the city locals labeling all of the students as such. Perhaps a few of those deserved to be rounded up and sent to a gulag as a therapeutic life experience, but it would be irresponsible and plain ignorant to paint all Gen-Y with the same damaged brush. In the end, dismissing them as 'entitled' is a cheap, cop-out argument, and even if they suppressed their supposed entitlement complex, the issues facing entry level employment would not be solved. Job searching methods have not changed, even during the more prosperous times. From the beginning, our school's Career Services office told our engineering class that 2% of the new-grad jobs were posted on their boards, a subset of the 20% that are advertised online; their efforts on advising us were focused more on getting at other 80%. The same applies now. Spamming resumes to monster.ca, workopolis and other online (possibly fake) postings will significantly be a waste of time. If you get called in for an interview from applying on one of those big online job banks, perhaps you should buy a lottery ticket that day.

We shouldn't rush to judge the poor guy. It's easy to make assumptions, but I sort of empathized with most of what he complained about. While I don't support his lust for material crap, uppity lifestyle and a nice car, that is the least of his problems. There are lots of graduates with the determination to meaningfully contribute to the country's economy, only to face pointless hurdles. That should be further motivation to fight the system, for it's a fight that can be won, even by the arts grads. It used to be that Canadians with ambition left their mediocre motherland for better opportunities elsewhere--that is an option still available. This guy can still fight, but must change his strategy. As Tariq ibn Ziyad once declared: the sea is behind you and the enemy is in front.

[Mark77]

We shouldn't rush to judge the poor guy. It's easy to make assumptions, but I sort of empathized with most of what he complained about. While I don't support his lust for material crap, uppity lifestyle and a nice car, that is the least of his problems. There are lots of graduates with the determination to meaningfully contribute to the country's economy, only to face pointless hurdles. That should be further motivation to fight the system, for it's a fight that can be won, even by the arts grads.

Yup, why do we have contributors on RFD, and to the Globe and Mail article, throwing stones at the 29-year-old, or throwing stones at me (my story is fundamentally similar) -- instead of being utmostly concerned that the economy is losing out on the gains and the productivity that we can bring to the table through our skills?

If all the engineers in Canada were put to work, our standard of living would rise, while the quality of life probably would rise as well. We have the spectre of high teacher unemployment nationally, yet classrooms that are overcrowded. We have people who are in desperate need of mental health services and can't obtain them through the system, yet hoardes of psychology grads can only find work in restaurants serving food.

And I completely agree with you on 'pointless hurdles'. Employers are just too darn picky, and would prefer to leave a position vacant, a job un-done, than to hire someone who may, heaven forbid, need a little bit of training or some time to come up to speed. Worse yet, graduates may not even know what the 'hurdles' are, because they receive little useful feedback, even if they meet all of the paper requirements of an advertised position. Throw in some completely unprofessional behaviour on the part of the HR fonctionairres, and its no wonder that we have a very cynical youth these days.

[spf1971]

You are completely ignorant, and the data, that 2/3rds of Canada's engineering graduates never manage to achieve professional registration definitely contradicts your claim.

Personally I have relevant work experience, am not socially awkward, and am not in the top 5%, BTW. None of these characteristics even matter when firms receive 50, 100, 1000 resumes for the positions they hire for -- because that job is probably going to a previous intern or an employee referral anyways.

If you are even half as smart as you claim to be, the fact that 2/3 of engineering graduates cannot find work as an engineer should tell you something about the over-saturation of the job market. The proper response of a smart person is to find another career, one that is in demand, not piss and moan about not being able to find work.

[night_day]

It's a decently written article, but the following quote kills me

The kicker? They likely didn't hire anyone at all and wasted everyone's time.

Very rarely will a company waste their time and energy to actually conduct face to face interviews and then not end up hiring anyone (unless there is no one that qualifies - not like the job disappeared which is how I read this) No idea where that person got that silly idea from!

[bb19270]

I feel that the current state of Canada's economy simply cannot sustain our current standards and costs of living.

I don't agree with the author blaming the HR's because it's really an employer's market now with a surplus of job seekers (like a previous poster said).

The only way to provide adequate positions for qualified job seekers (from an econ. perspective) is to open up more positions by lowering wages (and therefore productivity).

Then, lower wages = lower standards of living = lower costs of living
lower wages = less productivity = more openings
Which then the economy will end up with the same output as before.

[JoeyMBA]

Content aside, ther article has a whiney tone.

Related note: I enjoy hearing about philosophy grads landing jobs. People like to root for the under dogs.

[VifferFun]

I didn't think it was that whiny, other than the materialistic section. It's easy for those of us with steady employment in our field of choice to cast judgement on those who do not. I do think that the up-and-coming generation has more than its fair share of kids with an unrealistic expectations of what they "deserve"; however, it's disheartening when you see hardworking individuals who would do EXCELLENT on the job, but are unable to find work.

I graduated in 2006 and started full time with my co-op employer from my last work term. (Co-op is like a 4-month interview and is an INCREDIBLE tool for building an invaluable network to use when you graduate). If I were to graduate today with the same experience I had back in 2006, I don't think that getting my frst job would have been an easy, but it would have been manageable due to my fairly extensive network within my industry.

[Elfer]

If you're socially awkward (like most top 5% graduates in engineering are), have no relevant work experience and spend most of your days bragging about your marks in school 10 years after you graduated on an internet forum(tip: no one gives a ****) you will probably not end up being employed. For the rest of us, well.

Srsly? I graduated from engineering with honours and two years of work experience, and tried to take lots of client-based projects during my undergrad so I'd have a really good resume when I graduated. I spent about 16 months looking for work with zero offers. All I wanted was an entry-level job that would let me work hard and develop some specialized technical/professional skills. I'd be overjoyed to work as an EIT for 36k/yr, but apparently I'm not the sort of person employers are looking for.

Unfortunately, with so many experienced engineers out of work and so few entry-level positions available, new grads basically don't stand a chance. Even if you do get an interview (which generally means having a connection, not applying as an ordinary outside applicant), you're generally interviewing against a dozen or more other people, and that's only if you get to the final round of interviews.

Now I'm going to grad school so I can have something productive to do during the day and make enough money to (barely) cover the bills. I'm hoping that my project will get me enough industry contacts that I can land a real job after I get my master's, but honestly, at this point I don't have high hopes for ever being an engineer.

[JK400]

Srsly? I graduated from engineering with honours and two years of work experience, and tried to take lots of client-based projects during my undergrad so I'd have a really good resume when I graduated. I spent about 16 months looking for work with zero offers. All I wanted was an entry-level job that would let me work hard and develop some specialized technical/professional skills. I'd be overjoyed to work as an EIT for 36k/yr, but apparently I'm not the sort of person employers are looking for.

Unfortunately, with so many experienced engineers out of work and so few entry-level positions available, new grads basically don't stand a chance. Even if you do get an interview (which generally means having a connection, not applying as an ordinary outside applicant), you're generally interviewing against a dozen or more other people, and that's only if you get to the final round of interviews.

Now I'm going to grad school so I can have something productive to do during the day and make enough money to (barely) cover the bills. I'm hoping that my project will get me enough industry contacts that I can land a real job after I get my master's, but honestly, at this point I don't have high hopes for ever being an engineer.

Not my experience or anyone elses I know. Not sure what happened with you, it's hard to diagnose over an internet forum but you've probably got one of the following problems: went to a school that isn't recruited at for entry level jobs (e.g. Ryerson), did an obscure engineering program, have a bad resume (saw the one you posted a while back, it was god awful), can't interview well, not willing to relocate or something.

[Mark77]

Srsly? I graduated from engineering with honours and two years of work experience, and tried to take lots of client-based projects during my undergrad so I'd have a really good resume when I graduated. I spent about 16 months looking for work with zero offers. All I wanted was an entry-level job that would let me work hard and develop some specialized technical/professional skills. I'd be overjoyed to work as an EIT for 36k/yr, but apparently I'm not the sort of person employers are looking for.

Yeah don't mind JK400 or some of the others that think graduating from engineering is a guaranteed job, when the data quite clearly shows otherwise.

I suspect you ran into a lot of the same issues as I did -- couldn't return to your internship employer for whatever reasons, and found that the employers who are hiring other-than-their-former interns are actually targetting the lower end, not the upper end of the talent pool.

In terms of "sort of person employers are looking for", ever notice that HR folks are essentially trying to play psychological screener as well? Just what really qualifies them to do that anyways?

[Elfer]

Not my experience or anyone elses I know. Not sure what happened with you, it's hard to diagnose over an internet forum but you've probably got one of the following problems: went to a school that isn't recruited at for entry level jobs (e.g. Ryerson), did an obscure engineering program, have a bad resume (saw the one you posted a while back, it was god awful), can't interview well, not willing to relocate or something.

Queen's, chemical process engineering, willing to relocate, and made huge, huge improvements to that crappy resume (you can look at the new version in that thread, which has had a couple more updates in the intervening time). I've had plenty of good interviews, even one that ended with the interviewer saying "You did very well with the interview process, hopefully we'll be able to engage you." Never even heard back from HR after that one. May not be the experience of anyone you know, but I know quite a few people with the same problem.

There's just a glut of applicants. Blaming people for not studying engineering isn't the solution when eng grads can't even find work. Aside from that, engineering is definitely not for everyone. I took engineering because I've always wanted to be an engineer, not because I thought it would be a good way to make money.