Just got let go, and need help figuring out the messy final ... "payment"

[eeto]

I've worked with this company for 5 years and 2 months and I recently got laid off. In a nutshell, I got "overpaid" due to some vacations, and the company wants me to pay back before they will release me the ROE to apply for EI.

They calculated ...

• Everything before Feb 2009, has been update to date.
• Feb 2009 - Apr 2012, I took 57 vacation days.
• Each year i'm entitled to 10 vacation days.
• The days where I am on vacation, I get paid as well.
• When my job terminates, everything tallies up and I owe company 5.62 days. (the owing included termination pay, but yet I'm still owing)
• I get paid biweekly, the 5.62days that I'm owing the comp
  any currently, amount is equivalent to 70% of my biweekly paycheque.

Is everything right? I'm sure I get taxed for the pay cheques but why when i'm paying for 5.62 days, its equivalent to 70% of my current biweekly pay cheque? Also, I'd got a raise in 2011 Jan, won't that mess up the numbers?

I'm pretty upset, cause I need to pay company money when I'm going jobless. Plus in the past 5 years I've definitely OTed more hours those 5.62days. And to be honest, I've OTed that much time even the last 6 months. There's no prove of record (since they don't pay OT, and gets upset when you ask to be paid for it), but just coworkers knowing that we were still in the office....

[KingMiedus]

Holy crap how did you take over 57 vacation days in just over 3 years when you're only entitled to 10 a year?

Is it 70% of your net that you're owing? That would make sense. Otherwise it should just be 56.2% of your gross, given that bi-weekly is 10 work days.

That OT stuff sucks though, you'd think they'd allow you to treat some of those vacation days as 'flexing' that OT you built up.

[Firebot]

Regardless of the issue of whether you should or were allowed 57 days of vacation, this is definitely a case where a lawyer needs to be involved. BTW you may very likely be owed severance if you were being let go on the spot *(just saw you mentioned termination pay in your post so you can disregard this if not relevant). Also their claimed pay dispute would have no correlation to your ROE, they are required to provide it to you in a timely matter.

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/.../severance.php

Qualifying for Severance Pay

An employee qualifies for severance pay when his or her employment is severed and he or she:

has worked for the employer for five or more years (including all the time spent by the employee in employment with the employer, whether continuous or not and whether active or not)
and
his or her employer:
has a payroll in Ontario of at least $2.5 million;
or
severed the employment of 50 or more employees in a six-month period because all or part of the business closed.

See also: Severance Tool
Amount of Severance Pay

To calculate the amount of severance pay an employee is entitled to receive, multiply the employee's regular wages for a regular work week by the sum of:

the number of completed years of employment;
and
the number of completed months of employment divided by 12 for a year that is not completed.

The maximum amount of severance pay required to be paid under the ESA is 26 weeks.

[komal]

Snip

[Mark77]

Ummm.. 57 days - 30 days = 27 days. Looks like the employer is trying to pay ~20 days as pay in lieu of notice, and wants a refund, ie: 4 days a year.

I'd question whether the 20 days as pay in lieu of notice is appropriate or not. Need a lot more facts here. Young worker, can find a replacement job easily? Or older worker, highly specialized, can't find a replacement job? The 'employment standards' notice requirements are minimums, and certainly there may be more of an entitlement under the common law principles that govern this.

[eeto]

Holy crap how did you take over 57 vacation days in just over 3 years when you're only entitled to 10 a year?

Is it 70% of your net that you're owing? That would make sense. Otherwise it should just be 56.2% of your gross, given that bi-weekly is 10 work days.

That OT stuff sucks though, you'd think they'd allow you to treat some of those vacation days as 'flexing' that OT you built up.

I've went on vacation twice for a wedding, each were 3 weeks (so 15 days). Plus every Christmas they close the company so you don't have work and get a "choice" to either take it as 3 days vacation or 3 days no work no pay (the rest is christmas, boxing day and new years). So 3 years, there goes 9 days... the rest just 1 days or 2 days adding things up.

[eeto]

Regardless of the issue of whether you should or were allowed 57 days of vacation, this is definitely a case where a lawyer needs to be involved. BTW you may very likely be owed severance if you were being let go on the spot *(just saw you mentioned termination pay in your post so you can disregard this if not relevant). Also their claimed pay dispute would have no correlation to your ROE, they are required to provide it to you in a timely matter.

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/.../severance.php

This situation sucked. But the amount in dispute is under $1k. And also in books they are all correct. Plus a lawyer is the furthest thing away that I've one and have contacted one... Is there enough grounds to make it worth it?

[eeto]

Holy crap how did you take over 57 vacation days in just over 3 years when you're only entitled to 10 a year?

Is it 70% of your net that you're owing? That would make sense. Otherwise it should just be 56.2% of your gross, given that bi-weekly is 10 work days.

That OT stuff sucks though, you'd think they'd allow you to treat some of those vacation days as 'flexing' that OT you built up.

In short, I owe them days, which they then translate it to $ (based on current conversion rate)

This kind of calculation is very messy as I have spotted that in this 3 years, I got a raise in early 2011. So strictly speaking, my salary from early 2011 till current is different from 2010 March to early 2011. Therefore, I believe they cant just calculate it as "days" if they are talking about "overpay"...

[mork]

I'm no expert, but I doubt they can legally withhold the ROE based on some financial dispute with you. Just demand it from them. They are legally required to give it to you (or file it online with the government) within 5 days.

It sounds like you are leaving this company on bad terms. If it were me, I would just walk away from the mess and both sides can chalk it up as a lesson learned. I would not expect them to pursue it further for an amount totaling less than $1k. Hopefully this company employs better processes or supervision to manage the vacation time of their employees in the future to avoid these circumstances.

You are technically correct about the "day-to-dollars" conversion being variable since you stole days in 2010 and are being charged at today's rates so-to-speak... but to me it is splitting hairs. If you don't think $1k is fair, and walking away from it all doesn't feel right to you (or you think you can salvage a reference from the employment).. then just negotiate with them to a settlement you feel is fair.

[eeto]

I'm no expert, but I doubt they can legally withhold the ROE based on some financial dispute with you. Just demand it from them. They are legally required to give it to you (or file it online with the government) within 5 days.

It sounds like you are leaving this company on bad terms. If it were me, I would just walk away from the mess and both sides can chalk it up as a lesson learned. I would not expect them to pursue it further for an amount totaling less than $1k. Hopefully this company employs better processes or supervision to manage the vacation time of their employees in the future to avoid these circumstances.

You are technically correct about the "day-to-dollars" conversion being variable since you stole days in 2010 and are being charged at today's rates so-to-speak... but to me it is splitting hairs. If you don't think $1k is fair, and walking away from it all doesn't feel right to you (or you think you can salvage a reference from the employment).. then just negotiate with them to a settlement you feel is fair.

I'm still thinking what I should do. My plan is to talk to the boss' wife first and try to settle it through my years of working in the company. If that doesn't work, they i'll proceed to "split hairs" to the lowest I can, and also demand my ROE regardless. Boss wife claims that accountant said the ROE "won't be correct" if I don't pay back the amount...

The last years in the company has been terrible, and the last few months was the worst ever... Basically I would define it as verbal and psychologically abused on a weekly basis. When they issued the termination notice on Apr 9 (for 2 of my coworkers and I, the company at that time has only 7 people left), our last day of work was supposed to be this Friday Apr 27 but something happened last Thursday Apr 19. In a nutshell, the boss started yelling and swearing. I asked him to calm down and stop yelling, but he proceeds with more cussing and asked me to "wrap up and go" in front of the whole office. He just couldn't wait till Friday to do it, and has to do it in front of everyone by yelling.

[sexyj]

Why are you talking to the boss' wife when you should be talking to the boss himself ?

Don't rely on the middleman.

I'm still thinking what I should do. My plan is to talk to the boss' wife first and try to settle it through my years of working in the company. If that doesn't work, they i'll proceed to "split hairs" to the lowest I can, and also demand my ROE regardless. Boss wife claims that accountant said the ROE "won't be correct" if I don't pay back the amount...

The last years in the company has been terrible, and the last few months was the worst ever... Basically I would define it as verbal and psychologically abused on a weekly basis. When they issued the termination notice on Apr 9 (for 2 of my coworkers and I, the company at that time has only 7 people left), our last day of work was supposed to be this Friday Apr 27 but something happened last Thursday Apr 19. In a nutshell, the boss started yelling and swearing. I asked him to calm down and stop yelling, but he proceeds with more cussing and asked me to "wrap up and go" in front of the whole office. He just couldn't wait till Friday to do it, and has to do it in front of everyone by yelling.

[eeto]

Why are you talking to the boss' wife when you should be talking to the boss himself ?

Don't rely on the middleman.

Shes not the middleman, she is the one handling ALL the finances... The boss just make compulsive decision and the wife deals the aftermath. The boss will not even listen to me half a second, (based on history).

[tylaw83]

57 days - 30 = 27 days

He is required to give you a week's notice or pay for each year you have worked. You worked there 3 years and had 2 weeks notice and got laid off 1 week early.

You are entitled to 1 week of severance, meaning you still owe approximately 27 - 5 = 22 days.

All in all, it appears your employer is being quite generous, especially consider you were allowed to take 57 days of holidays in 3 years when you were only allotted 10.

If I were you, I'd suck it up and pay them. If you're really broke, then just demand your ROE (they are required to provide it by law) and don't pay. I seriously doubt they would sue you for such a small clawback.

[eeto]

57 days - 30 = 27 days

He is required to give you a week's notice or pay for each year you have worked. You worked there 3 years and had 2 weeks notice and got laid off 1 week early.

You are entitled to 1 week of severance, meaning you still owe approximately 27 - 5 = 22 days.

All in all, it appears your employer is being quite generous, especially consider you were allowed to take 57 days of holidays in 3 years when you were only allotted 10.

If I were you, I'd suck it up and pay them. If you're really broke, then just demand your ROE (they are required to provide it by law) and don't pay. I seriously doubt they would sue you for such a small clawback.

No no...

I worked in the company for 5 years and 2 months and I'm entitled to 5 weeks. They gave notice on April 9, to terminate me at the end of my 3rd week. But the boss compulsively terminated me on the 9th day after term notice.

Calculation is...

57(vacay days) - 3*10(entitled vacay days) - 1.38(vacay days for this yr) - 20 days (of unpaid term days since the week of apr9 was paid already)
57 - 30 - 1.38 - 20 = 5.62 days

There no generosity here. Everything was down to the books. Why there's only 3 years of vacation record is because before that everything was balanced already.

edit: actually there was some generosity here. They ended my misery 6 days earlier than planned.

[Biff88]

......I'm pretty upset, cause I need to pay company money when I'm going jobless. Plus in the past 5 years I've definitely OTed more hours those 5.62days. And to be honest, I've OTed that much time even the last 6 months. There's no prove of record (since they don't pay OT, and gets upset when you ask to be paid for it), but just coworkers knowing that we were still in the office....

It's too bad that you didn't keep a detailed accounting of the unpaid overtime you did. In this case some negotiation might be applicable where you could say "ok we'll account for the 5.62 days and deduct the $ from the x number of hours overtime that I worked and did not get paid for...hours that you are perhaps obliged by law to pay for". BTW only 10 days vacation per year is very poor. It may be the minimum required by law...but it stinks.