Law School

[darlingqueen]

So my daughter wants to be a lawyer. Where can she apply out of Ontario? we live in Toronto but I think the grades you need are very high to get into no? Does she need to do a regular BA fro 4 years then law school for another 4?
Thanks just planning ahead....(hse is going into grade 10 this September) what kind of grades does she need...............................?

[Code of Conduct]

I have 3 friends applying for law school now and this is what I've pieced together based on convo's with them (someone please confirm/dispell if you are applying for law):

Your daughter needs to:

-finish an undergraduate degree (can be in any field but typically in a field which she would be interested in doing law in...e.g. business if she wants to do corporate law)

-apply to law school by having high marks for her undergraduate degree and completing the LSATS (160-170 score seems to be ok in Canada but if she wants to get into Harvard, you need almost a 180 which I believe is a perfect score)

-Law school is 2 years long

-in Toronto York and U of T both offer law schools (both are prestigious)

-it is recommended that she study an easier undergraduate degree so she can achieve a higher GPA for law school applications (as law schools often do not care which school/undergraduate degree you've studied...just the GPA)

[onehair]

Hello,

I just went through the Law School application process and would be happy to help you out. Its a really good thing that your child is looking ahead because it takes quite a bit of work to get into law school. There are 2 aspects that you need to fulfill in order to be considered for law school. Grades and LSAT.

Grades:

School in Ontario are REALLY competitive. Its super hard to get in, I applied with pretty good marks but unfortunately I was a little under the cutoff. As of last year, you need essentially need a CUMULATIVE GPA (so that is all of your marks over the course of your degree averaged out) of 3.7. Depending on where you go to school and there grading curve. That generally works out to an 80.0% cumulative average.

You can apply to Law School in Canada after completing a minimum of 2 years in ANY undergraduate degree. Although you really have to be a genious to get in after 2 years. Most people, apply after completing their degree. I recommend this route.

LSAT:

You also have to complete the Law School Admissions Test (LSAT). Its a test which tests your logic reasoning, analytical skills, and reading comprehension. This is an INSANELY hard test. The reason I found it hard was that it is not testing a body of knowledge, it is testing your thinking. That alone makes it really hard.

Generally for Canadian schools, you need a scaled score of 160. So you complete your test. Once it is marked, it is ranked against everyone else who completed the test on a scale from 120 - 180 (180 being perfect). For the most part (Although it changes plus/minus a few percent), a score of 160 translates to around 80% on the test.

Your child can start preparing for the LSAT and Law school now actually. Even though he is in grade 10, I would suggest doing other things just to sharpen the skills you need to do well on the LSAT. Do logic games, make sure he takes philosophy in high school. A lot of being a lawyer or in law school at least reading complex writing and synthesizing information. Philosophy is a good course to help you with your reading comprehension. Do sudoku puzzles on a daily basis to help with your logical thinking and analytical skills. Do fun games, puzzles, exercises. Develop an addiction for reading. Get him to write a blog, or just respond to what he reads. Really just write anything. Lawyers do 2 things, research and write. He may as well start improving those skills now.

I am actually moving to Michigan in a week for Law School. I am heading off to Michigan State University for 2 years and then Ottawa Law for 2 years. Its a joint degree which will allow me the opportunity to practice in either Canada or the States.

If you have any other questions feel free to drop me a PM. Hope this helps.

[onehair]

I have 3 friends applying for law school now and this is what I've pieced together based on convo's with them (someone please confirm/dispell if you are applying for law):

Your daughter needs to:

-finish an undergraduate degree (can be in any field but typically in a field which she would be interested in doing law in...e.g. business if she wants to do corporate law)

-apply to law school by having high marks for her undergraduate degree and completing the LSATS (160-170 score seems to be ok in Canada but if she wants to get into Harvard, you need almost a 180 which I believe is a perfect score)

-Law school is 2 years long

-in Toronto York and U of T both offer law schools (both are prestigious)

-it is recommended that she study an easier undergraduate degree so she can achieve a higher GPA for law school applications (as law schools often do not care which school/undergraduate degree you've studied...just the GPA)

Let me just clear up some misconceptions here.

- Only have to complete 2 years of an undergrad (its worth finishing the degree)

- You need a 160 for ANY Canadian school. UofT is slightly higher, 164 - 165
and a 170 with good marks will get you into Harvard.

- Law school is 3 years long. Then you have to complete 1 year of articling.

- Go to www.lsac.org for a list of law schools in Canada. Just search around there.

- I wouldnt suggest you do an undergrad that is easy just to get into Law school. First off, a hard working, goal oriented individual will get the marks they need to achieve their goals no matter what the degree. And you also have you think, say you finally get into law school and you hate it? You decide to drop out of law school because you realize its not for you. Now what do you have to fall back on? A degree in Music? Whats that going to do for you. When doing your undergrad, consider the possibility that you may realize law isnt for you and choose an undergrad wisely.

MOST aspiring law students do a degree in Political Science because there is a lot of research and essay writing. Again, since a law student does NOTHING but research and writing. Its a good idea to hone those skills with an undergrad program.

[Sniper001]

Just to add on, you can complete any undergraduate degree your daughter would like to do - that's the beauty of law school, which is why there are quite a bit of people in law school who never originally intended to become a lawyer - they get students with a variety of backgrounds.

Taking that into consideration, taking an easy program may help increase the chances of your daughter getting into law school. But consider this, what will happen if your daughter does not get into law school? Is that undergraduate degree enough for her to build onto something else. Many people who want to be lawyers early on take Political science/history/ a BA program... now, I personally feel that those degrees cannot help you too much in life. It's better to take an undergraduate degree which can be a bit more helpful (ie. a BBA, etc.) At least this way, your daughter has a backup plan incase she does not get into law school. So, see what she's interested in. In high school, there are basically 2 dividing groups: There are those who take the sciences and those who take the business courses. Whichever route she takes (and she needs to like it as well as be good at it), she should go into the according undergraduate program. If she truly does not like both business and the sciences, but has a passion for history/philosophy/english, than I'd recommend going into political science.

Do a search on the forum, most of the information in regards to law schools have been posted in the thread, but there is tons more out there. I believe quite recently Octavius posted a link to the cutoffs this year for law school admission (in terms of LSAT scores) as well as the top universities to go to for law school (according to Maclean's) I believe he said that generally, as long as your daughter gets a high GPA (3.7+) and an LSAT score of 160+, she will get accepted into a good law school. Top law schools in Canada (from the top of my head) are University of Toronto, McGill, Osgoode, but to be honest, all of them are great and will provide a solid education. Most people tend to apply to as many as they can to ensure they gain admissions, since their lives depend on it!

Oh, and if you want a sample of the LSAT, Octavius posted a link last week in one of the "law school" threads or something similar. I could do a simple search, but I'm sure you should be able to find it if you would like too, or even google for some. He's a great guy to if you have any other questions that haven't been answered - I know that I personally went to him for some advice and he knows quite a bit when it comes to law school admissions (since he's studying for his LSAT right now).

Now, since you are in high school, you should check out the different undergraduate degrees which she would like to take, the prerequisites, and the cutoffs. All of it can be obtained at those university fairs - there is one coming up in a few months or so, it's never too early to start looking! If she's going into grade 10, you should really look at her science, math, and english marks. Grade 10 is a good indicator of whether she may like the sciences or not, since grade 9 is basically a review of what you learned in elementary school plus a few basic concepts. I know that I may be criticized for this, but if she is truly a hard worker and tries hard in all her courses, if she doesn't get at least an 85 in the science, she should stick to taking business courses in grade 11. The last thing you want is for her to take 2-3 sciences in grade 11, realize she doesn't like it, and her average drops down. I took 2 sciences in grade 11 despite the fact that I knew I didn't like them (I wanted to "keep my options open"), and it dropped my average dramatically, and it ended up being a waste since I took no sciences in grade 12! Also, (now this is not neccessary, but it will help) ensure she takes grade 11 law, grade 12 law, and grade 12 philosophy. That's pretty much all I can think of from the top of my head. She shouldn't stress too much, I was starting to look into law school at the beginning of grade 11 (after I took grade 11 law and realized I really loved the course) and am still considering it.

[VivienM]

-finish an undergraduate degree (can be in any field but typically in a field which she would be interested in doing law in...e.g. business if she wants to do corporate law)

Technically, only 2-3 years of undergrad are required. THIS IS A BAD IDEA. Speaking from experience, most law students are older (avg age of a first year student at my school was 26), and when you're applying for jobs and the like, being younger seems to hurt.

Get a degree in something you enjoy studying and that you're good at and that you can tell interesting stories about, and maybe some work experience.

-apply to law school by having high marks for her undergraduate degree and completing the LSATS (160-170 score seems to be ok in Canada but if she wants to get into Harvard, you need almost a 180 which I believe is a perfect score)

Harvard is great... but not the best choice if you just want to practice in Canada. The Law Society seems to like to throw roadblocks at Harvard grads...

-Law school is 2 years long

3

-it is recommended that she study an easier undergraduate degree so she can achieve a higher GPA for law school applications (as law schools often do not care which school/undergraduate degree you've studied...just the GPA)

That's extremely silly.

Law schools DO look at WHAT you've studied and WHERE you've studied it.

You want a program/school that has a reputation for being hard, then you want to do well in it.

[VivienM]

MOST aspiring law students do a degree in Political Science because there is a lot of research and essay writing. Again, since a law student does NOTHING but research and writing. Its a good idea to hone those skills with an undergrad program.

Yes, but MOST law students don't have political science degrees. It's one of the things I found most surprising about law school.

It's like the admissions committees see right through 80% of the stereotypical political science keener wannabe-lawyers type and instead admit people with more unusual backgrounds.

[VivienM]

So my daughter wants to be a lawyer. Where can she apply out of Ontario? we live in Toronto but I think the grades you need are very high to get into no? Does she need to do a regular BA fro 4 years then law school for another 4?
Thanks just planning ahead....(hse is going into grade 10 this September) what kind of grades does she need...............................?

Advice from a very recent law school grad (which repeats some of what's been said above, along with things learned the hard way):
- taking the high school law classes is a very good idea. You'd be amazed 8-10 years down the road, how much of the same stuff comes up in the first few weeks of law school... and if you find law uninteresting, you might as well discover it early
- law schools want reasonably well-rounded high achievers, generally with interesting stories to tell. There is no single path to law school. I had classmates who started at 22 straight out of a business undergrad, and others who had just completed Ph. D.s in genetics or English.
- personal statements, resumes, etc. are typically required. Start thinking about extracurricular activities that would be good... and they shouldn't necessarily be law related. That being said, one of the first things they tell you in law school is that all your high school stuff doesn't matter, so realistically, when it comes to law admissions, your life starts first year of undergrad.
- it's not, IMO, as hard to get into law school as some people claim. I'd guess about 35% of people who apply to Ontario schools end up getting into one of the Ontario schools?
- that being said, DO keep exit options in mind. If you don't get in, then you should at least have a degree that leads to something else...
- avoid BS 'pre-law' programs offered by mediocre universities. I won't name names. But generally speaking, something more conventional is better.
- LSAT is important, but realistically, 2nd/3rd year of undergrad is when you should be worrying about it. 4th year if you like to live dangerously.

[Dimension]

Yes, but MOST law students don't have political science degrees. It's one of the things I found most surprising about law school.

It's like the admissions committees see right through 80% of the stereotypical political science keener wannabe-lawyers type and instead admit people with more unusual backgrounds.

+1. B.A. anthro., soci., histroy, arky. etc. It's good to finish a degree before going into law school...more experience. People tend to be older in law school, the avg. age is 26 y.o.

[VivienM]

+1. B.A. anthro., soci., histroy, arky. etc. It's good to finish a degree before going into law school...more experience. People tend to be older in law school, the avg. age is 26 y.o.

Yup. And something like... 25 or 40% of people have graduate degrees. I forget the exact percentage.

Oh, and something like half of the people who graduated with honours in my class had a background in philosophy. I have no idea why it is, but it seems ex-philosophy people are those who do best at law school...

[erasmus99]

I am in law school currently.

I would finish a B.A. Don't gear your courses toward law based ones. Do what interests you. When you are in law, you can mesh those interests. I'd say there was no discipline that does exceptionally well. BUTTTT if I had to pick, I'd say students with math/physics backrounds, English, and History/philosophy do better on average than other disciplines. I hesitate to say that, even, b/c I know other smart business and biology students. One thing they have in common, I would say, is good study habits, and knowing how to write.

Study what you like!

And one cares in law school about your high school classes.

Harvard. You probably need 170+ on your LSAT to get in. The close to 180 is a bit of nonsense. You need close to 180 to get into Yale, although I know an able student who got in there at 173. Don't go there if you want to practice in Canada. It is a waste of time.

[AirplaneKing]

Don't be ridiculous. Graduating from Yale or Harvard Law Schools will NOT be an impairment to practicing law in Canada. It opens almost every possible door for law practice imaginable, worldwide. Unfortunately, you will need a 170+ LSAT score and a very high CGPA to be even considered given the swarm of applicants that crowd their admissions every year.

[VivienM]

Don't be ridiculous. Graduating from Yale or Harvard Law Schools will NOT be an impairment to practicing law in Canada. It opens almost every possible door for law practice imaginable, worldwide.

Except that the Law Society will make you do NCA and other stuff.

There was a story in one of the legal magazines a few months ago. Someone got her degree at Harvard (or Yale? I think it was Harvard) and was hired to clerk at the Supreme Court of Canada. At the SAME time, she took the NCA classes at Ottawa U. Normally, clerking satisfies the LSUC articling requirement.

But she was told that because she started clerking BEFORE finishing her NCA courses, it wouldn't count for her articling requirement. So she was told to article again in order to be called to the Ontario bar.

As you can imagine, people were upset, because here you have somebody who could easily get admitted in NY, make way more money, etc., and she WANTS to come back to Ontario, and they're just throwing these roadblocks at her.

So, yes, if you want to do international stuff, the fancy US schools are great. If all you want is a fairly quiet practice in Toronto or Ottawa, save your money. Go to a Canadian school. Avoid all the headaches.

[VivienM]

There was a story in one of the legal magazines a few months ago.

Found it.

http://www.lawandstyle.ca/index.php?...=213&Itemid=99

[UWO Engineer]

Don't be ridiculous. Graduating from Yale or Harvard Law Schools will NOT be an impairment to practicing law in Canada. It opens almost every possible door for law practice imaginable, worldwide.

Law is not universal and all degrees granted by American institutions are only recognized after a year of "upgrading" the holders knowledge of Canadian law; one year of school or an equivalent exam.

http://www.top-law-schools.com has all the information you need and more. But something you wont find there is that Law degrees are not technically considered "graduate" degrees in Canada. You can complete 2 years of undergraduate study and apply/be accepted having completed only half of a Bachelors. Although it is ****ing stupid to do that...you can if you wish.