Home & Garden

Laying Patio Stone Question!!

  • Last Updated:
  • Aug 22nd, 2016 10:04 pm
Tags:
None
[OP]
Newbie
User avatar
Jun 29, 2005
81 posts
Dundas, ON near you!

Laying Patio Stone Question!!

So I have a 15' X 15' Part of my back yard I want to put down 24" x 24" concrete patio stones how far do i dig down etc? Specifically how many inches of gravel (or other) and then how many inches of sand....

LAstly any good places to find patio stones at a decent price? GTA west


thx in advance

Rav :)
82 replies
Member
User avatar
Sep 17, 2001
370 posts
12 upvotes
3"-4" of "High Performance Bedding" (aka: HPB) should be sufficient. Check it out. It's endorsed by Unilock. 1 cubic yard covers 100' sq at 3" deep. The stuff looks like aquarium gravel and packs to 96% (I believe).

Won't comment on how far to dig down (depends on the grade).
Newbie
User avatar
May 24, 2005
80 posts
eXpedite:

Where did you find this High Performance Bedding? A few of the sand and gravel places I've called in the Ottawa area haven't heard of it. Do you have any more information?

Thanks!
Deal Addict
Sep 4, 2003
1850 posts
8 upvotes
eXpedite wrote:3"-4" of "High Performance Bedding" (aka: HPB) should be sufficient. Check it out. It's endorsed by Unilock. 1 cubic yard covers 100' sq at 3" deep. The stuff looks like aquarium gravel and packs to 96% (I believe).

Won't comment on how far to dig down (depends on the grade).

Sounds like a marketing gimmick....or a specialized product you probably don't need.

Typical 'road gravel' should do..if it's good enough for roadways to handle vehicle traffic than it should be just fine for a 15 x 15 patio.

Typically they say about 3" or so of the road gravel and then go 1" of sand, it would depend on your soil conditions as well..how much shifting you get, what your drainage is like.

We're doing a 12 x 8 greenhouse and we put down 3" road gravel, and 1" of sand and then will go with pavers above that, it's all framed with 4 x 6's.
Member
User avatar
Sep 17, 2001
370 posts
12 upvotes
rc51 wrote:Sounds like a marketing gimmick....or a specialized product you probably don't need.

Typical 'road gravel' should do..if it's good enough for roadways to handle vehicle traffic than it should be just fine for a 15 x 15 patio.

Typically they say about 3" or so of the road gravel and then go 1" of sand, it would depend on your soil conditions as well..how much shifting you get, what your drainage is like.

We're doing a 12 x 8 greenhouse and we put down 3" road gravel, and 1" of sand and then will go with pavers above that, it's all framed with 4 x 6's.

Are you kidding me?? I don't think you know what you're talking about. HPB is not a gimmick - don't let the name fool you. High Performance Bedding isas natural as regular stone. It just doesn't have all the sand and grit. It's washed out leaving small pebble sized stones. It's HIGH PERFORMANCE due to the exceptional drainage, and ease of use.

What you're doing is fine. Road Gravel (or Granular 'A') is the standard way of preparing the base (3"-4") with a skim coat of brick sand (1"). The issue is you need to order 2 products in the right amounts. You need to lay your gravel, screed, compact, lay the sand, screed and then exercise extreme caution not to disturb the sand bed if you want a perfect base. (Not to mention that ants love an inch of undisturbed sand and thrive under these patio's).

HPB is 1 product of 1/8" clear stone. It looks like pea gravel. It compacts aprox 95% when you lay it, and compacting is not necessary (although I do recommend to be safe). The difference is, you order 1 product, lay it down, and screed it out to the appropriate levels.

Many DIY'ers use limestone screenings because it's 1 product also. The difference is that the limestone screenings can bleach your pavers and has POOR drainage, (although it compacts like concrete).

Having said all that, you can see why High Performance Bedding is of high interest to landscapers. It simplifies the project and significantly reduces the time to build the patio. As everyone knows, preparing the base is the hard part, so use what helps. And for the record, the place I buy my aggregate charges only $2 more per cubic yard than they do for gravel or screenings!

Ask for 1/8" clear stone. HPB may be a "brand name" from Dufferin Aggregates, but it's all the same stuff. Here's a LINK which speaks to the benefits. In the end it's your choice, but HPB makes it easier and cheaper IMHO having used both.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Nov 13, 2005
5678 posts
162 upvotes
GTA
"It compacts aprox 95% when you lay it" "and packs to 96%"

Hey :arrowu: make up your mind will you. Is it 95% or 96%??? :|

Just kidding!!!! Well put :)

Thanx for the info. Never new the product existed!!!!!

sk
Deal Addict
Sep 4, 2003
1850 posts
8 upvotes
eXpedite wrote:Are you kidding me?? I don't think you know what you're talking about. HPB is not a gimmick - don't let the name fool you. High Performance Bedding isas natural as regular stone. It just doesn't have all the sand and grit. It's washed out leaving small pebble sized stones. It's HIGH PERFORMANCE due to the exceptional drainage, and ease of use.
I didn't discount the product...but my hunch was that this is overkill of what the OP is trying to do. A 15 x 15 deck is really not that big of a project... and if you're laying pavers, you HAVE to have sand, I really doubt you could lay pavers just over this HPB stuff.

I don't know the industry, but my wife being a P. Eng and in the concrete business (precast, ready mix, aggs, mix designs) for now 10+ years, I'm sure knows a thing or 2 about laying proper bases. You just can't specify a product blindly...you have to take the entire project, intended use, environment, cost, budget into account.
Member
User avatar
Sep 17, 2001
370 posts
12 upvotes
Agreed. And you'd find that HPB is cheper than ordering 2 products, which may have to be delivered seperately. Putting down 1 layer of HPB takes 1/2 the time that it takes to lay down gravel, and then sand. And, I'm not disputing the gravel + sand mix is wrong. It's a safe procedure that has yeilded excellent results for so many people. This is why landscapers are hesitant to try something different. But, many eventually do and find that there is a better way. So, you'd find this is becomming quite popular since it WORKS excellent, requires only ONE application, DRAINS fantastic, and is CHEAPER in the long run for delivery and labour costs.

For the home owner, it's hard to mess up. You also only have to order "a little extra" of one product instead of two.

And SAND is absolutely necessary, but you only need a little bit to drop on top of the pavers to lock the joints.

FYI: HPB is defined as "2-5 mm, hard, clean, crushed aggregate containing no fines" So when you inquire about this... if they've never heard of HPB, ask if they have this stuff.

And for now, let's just agree to disagree. I've done it both ways, and saved significant time and frustration with this stuff for the base layer. I was hesitant at first, but extremely happy to have taken the leap of faith!
Newbie
Jun 13, 2006
11 posts
I'm excavating my backyard and HPB sounds like a good alternative for applying as the sub-base, if I'm stuck with the task of doing it myself. I see a number of garden centres in my area carrying HPB, with prices ranging from $25-$37/tonne (and delivery prices vary...). What gives? Can I trust that these are the real Dufferin Aggregates HBP(tm), or any 1/8" side pea gravel would do?

Thanks :confused:
Jr. Member
May 31, 2006
153 posts
caribou wrote:eXpedite:

Where did you find this High Performance Bedding? A few of the sand and gravel places I've called in the Ottawa area haven't heard of it. Do you have any more information?

Thanks!
Its a propriatory product sold by Dufferin. Its claim to fame is that it requirs no compaction effort.
The CSA and MTO standard is to use conrete sand as the bedding and Granular A below that. Conrete sand is like mortar sand you might see in a those bags at HomeDepot but coarser. You then use mortar sand to fill the joints.
Granular A is sold at sand pits and quarries where they call it 7/8 minus. Sand is sold at sand plants. HPB is sold at quarries. A quary is where they bast bedrock and crush it up while a sand plant is natually occuring deposits. Hope that makes sense.
Jr. Member
May 31, 2006
153 posts
greenpc wrote:I'm excavating my backyard and HPB sounds like a good alternative for applying as the sub-base, if I'm stuck with the task of doing it myself. I see a number of garden centres in my area carrying HPB, with prices ranging from $25-$37/tonne (and delivery prices vary...). What gives? Can I trust that these are the real Dufferin Aggregates HBP(tm), or any 1/8" side pea gravel would do?

Thanks :confused:
Pea gravel may be from a sand deposit and has rounded particles and doesn't compact like angular quarried HPB. Some "pea gravel" is quarried stone so you'll have to see it yourself before buying.
Member
User avatar
Sep 17, 2001
370 posts
12 upvotes
Thanks again sandy99 for summing up the first 10 hits on Google. Aside from regurgitating the information readily available - what's your experience with the product? Just curious... The reason I ask is because you just got into it with me on another post about dog barking, and I'm interested to know if you really have experience with this, or if you're just commenting on my threads?

So let's go...
HPB is not proprietary to anyone. The name is trademarked sure, but it's simply 2-5 mm, hard, clean, crushed aggregate containing no fines. If you want Dufferin's definition, it's "a limestone aggregate non-uniformly graded gravel offering a 9.5 mm top size." In MY experience, 9.5mm is the top size, but the majority is 2-5 mm, or about 1/8" in size.

It's true. You can't go around asking for HPB at just any aggregate supply yard. But if you ask for something going by the definition just above, I'm sure they can accommodate. Since after all... this product is not a technical breakthrough, and it's available from many quarries (not just the Cayuga Quarry where Dufferin Aggregates manufactures it. It's not a precious metal - just limestone).

Oh - and PEA GRAVEL doesn't really look like a rounded pea. It pretty much would offer the same result as HPB in a pinch. But I don't think "pea gravel" is composed of limestone.

But to answer your question - HPB is a tradmark name. If they are calling the item HPB, then it must be from Dufferin Aggregates. Worst case - it's the same thing from someone else. A rose, is a rose, is a rose - no matter what you call it.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Aug 22, 2004
2588 posts
Mississauga
sry for highjacking your theread but....

I am thinking of laying some stones in my backyard too. But i have grass and i want to remove the grass so i can lay gravel and then stones... I tried to dig up the grass with a shovel but too difficult.. and i had to cut it and rip it with hand.. that seems too difficult. Is there somethign that will rip up the grass and make the soil soft so i can pick it up wiht a shovel? The soil is nice and packed tight together.
× < >

Top