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Laying Patio Stone Question!!

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Member
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Sep 17, 2001
375 posts
13 upvotes
Bullseye wrote:Prannay - I'm just finishing hand digging 350 sq ft of backyard, turf andf all, down 8 inches, it hasn't been that hard. What kind of shovel are you using? I've found the best way is to use a straight edge shovel to get started and cut clean lines for your edges, then use a rounded edge shovel to excavate all rest.
I know what Prannay is talking about. If your sod is well rooted, it's not easy to tear it out with a shovel (flat or rounded). Trust me! On 4 year old sod, the only way to get it out by hand is to dig down below the roots (like you - over 6 inches). But if Prannay doesn't want to go that deep (more to remove + loss of top soil) - then you need to go with a sod cutter, or a tiller. I've used them both. The sod cutter is the way to go for the $60 it will cost at Home Depot. Save your hands, and your back. Best money you'll spend on the project if the surface is big enough to justify!
Banned
May 29, 2005
2255 posts
45 upvotes
eXpedite wrote:If you mean the question in the other post about laying out the steps for creating a similar patio... Then, yeah I did. Unfortunately it's not something I can sum up in 10 sentences or less. I'll outline the steps and send you a PM by next week!
Cheers mate.........looking forward to that.
Jr. Member
May 31, 2006
153 posts
2 upvotes
eXpedite wrote:Thanks again sandy99 for summing up the first 10 hits on Google. Aside from regurgitating the information readily available - what's your experience with the product? Just curious... The reason I ask is because you just got into it with me on another post about dog barking, and I'm interested to know if you really have experience with this, or if you're just commenting on my threads?

So let's go...
HPB is not proprietary to anyone. The name is trademarked sure, but it's simply 2-5 mm, hard, clean, crushed aggregate containing no fines. If you want Dufferin's definition, it's "a limestone aggregate non-uniformly graded gravel offering a 9.5 mm top size." In MY experience, 9.5mm is the top size, but the majority is 2-5 mm, or about 1/8" in size.

It's true. You can't go around asking for HPB at just any aggregate supply yard. But if you ask for something going by the definition just above, I'm sure they can accommodate. Since after all... this product is not a technical breakthrough, and it's available from many quarries (not just the Cayuga Quarry where Dufferin Aggregates manufactures it. It's not a precious metal - just limestone).

Oh - and PEA GRAVEL doesn't really look like a rounded pea. It pretty much would offer the same result as HPB in a pinch. But I don't think "pea gravel" is composed of limestone.

But to answer your question - HPB is a tradmark name. If they are calling the item HPB, then it must be from Dufferin Aggregates. Worst case - it's the same thing from someone else. A rose, is a rose, is a rose - no matter what you call it.
By propiatory I meant to say its a trademarked name. Think what ever you like be it SSFC Frost alumni or some googler - gee whiz I thought it was helpful to define some commen misconceptions. Seems like you missed the point entirely.
Newbie
Jun 13, 2006
11 posts
1 upvote
prannay wrote:sry for highjacking your theread but....

I am thinking of laying some stones in my backyard too. But i have grass and i want to remove the grass so i can lay gravel and then stones... I tried to dig up the grass with a shovel but too difficult.. and i had to cut it and rip it with hand.. that seems too difficult. Is there somethign that will rip up the grass and make the soil soft so i can pick it up wiht a shovel? The soil is nice and packed tight together.
I did it the HARD way -- my sod was really packed as well, so I waited for a good rain (good luck this week...) and use a lawn edger (the basic one found at CT) to cut horizontal & vertical lines creating 1 ft size squares. The edger will cut down about 6", heaving it side to side to loosing the sod. Then I use the shovel, after a few pieces removed, plunge it along the base (horizontall&y) with a few good kicks -- and 5 or 6" of sod squares come off like pan cakes...well, with a bit of sweating of course. I spent about 10 hrs (evenings + a weekend) and removed over 600 sq ft in the back. Now another 300 to go for the front & sides. It's a slow process, but I'm just a one person crew :^(
Member
User avatar
Dec 19, 2006
337 posts
23 upvotes
Hi,

I am considering redoing my patio. I want to lay new stones, but I am not sure if I should remove everything and do a new installation or just remove the existing slabs and put the new slabs on the current base. Any suggestions?

I am leaning towards removing everything and starting again, due to weeds and grading, but I'm not sure if I will run into major issues (such as removal of existing material.
Sr. Member
Jun 1, 2006
573 posts
99 upvotes
NB
anyone redone their front entrance walk way w lockstone? i currently have 18yr old pavement there currently. its only about 4 foot X 20 foot. is this an easy job to break up the pavement?
Newbie
Apr 22, 2008
4 posts
Great information here.
I was wondering... if I'm raising the patio do I "have" to remove the sod? Can't I just compact the sod, compact the base aggregate and do it that way? Is this a bad idea?
Newbie
Jan 1, 2008
36 posts
I have done a few patios ago and can help...

None of the info that you have read on the forum is accurate so far.If you want the stones not to look like a war path next year, here's the way to do it...
Dig out 6-7 inches of soil and screed the area. Flatten it out and make sure that there is no grade in it or the grade is away from the house. Then get a roll of viny burlap (get the thick stuff from the bone yard) for forming a base.

Next, add 3/4 + stone in 1-2 inch layers, level it with the back of a hard rake and then pound it down with a rental gravel leveller. If you use the larger one at HD, you will need real muscle to hold it.

For the last 2 inches level it and grade it away from the house with 3/4 - or sometimes known as crushed gravel or stone dust. Buy these at a stone yard...if you tell them 3/4 - they know what you are talking about.. and yes do not buy HD/Rona bags for this stuff. Water it and pound the stone dust down
Finally, one person lay the stone the other check for levels...usually height adjustment is a problem, not square layout. I have to mention...this is back breaking work.
Good luck and remember there is no going back...once you lay it down, you cannot bring it back up.

Oh! Navastone is sold by Rona/HD . My recommendation is try and get Permacon stone. Their edges are a lot better and make laying them easier.
one final step, get a garbage (black or blue) box full of construction sand and fill the gaps in the middle to avoid plant growth there

This is only a humble opinion and all recommendations are based on my own experience.

Good luck and buy a few ibuprofens for the next few days.
Newbie
Jun 13, 2006
11 posts
1 upvote
glaswegian wrote: greenpc....how is the project coming along?
Sorry for the LATE reply...the project came along quite well, spanning couple of summers. The DIY project of this magnitude shouldn't have been carried out alone :lol: , though I got some help with the early excavation. 2 x 14-cubic yard bins + a 7-cubic bin (excavation), 24-cubic of HPB + 4-cubic 3/4", 600+ sq ft of the darn hard to cut Unilock stones & blocks...it's coming together.

I wasted too much time playing with Google Sketchup to map out all the layout (minimizing cuts), and learn to work with HPB. HPB is great when you have barriers on all sides to contain it, but when the grading is suck -- one has to build the barriers and the darn retaining walls.

Just need to get some sod for the spot in the back, maybe a shed...or maybe just relax this year.

Here are some of the pictures from previous summers:
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2010-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 1504-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 1797-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2016-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2150-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2154-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2683-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn83 ... 2629-1.jpg[/IMG]
Deal Addict
Aug 24, 2002
3569 posts
40 upvotes
Sask
eXpedite wrote: Thanks again sandy99 for summing up the first 10 hits on Google. Aside from regurgitating the information readily available - what's your experience with the product? Just curious... The reason I ask is because you just got into it with me on another post about dog barking, and I'm interested to know if you really have experience with this, or if you're just commenting on my threads?

So let's go...
HPB is not proprietary to anyone. The name is trademarked sure, but it's simply 2-5 mm, hard, clean, crushed aggregate containing no fines. If you want Dufferin's definition, it's "a limestone aggregate non-uniformly graded gravel offering a 9.5 mm top size." In MY experience, 9.5mm is the top size, but the majority is 2-5 mm, or about 1/8" in size.

It's true. You can't go around asking for HPB at just any aggregate supply yard. But if you ask for something going by the definition just above, I'm sure they can accommodate. Since after all... this product is not a technical breakthrough, and it's available from many quarries (not just the Cayuga Quarry where Dufferin Aggregates manufactures it. It's not a precious metal - just limestone).

Oh - and PEA GRAVEL doesn't really look like a rounded pea. It pretty much would offer the same result as HPB in a pinch. But I don't think "pea gravel" is composed of limestone.

But to answer your question - HPB is a tradmark name. If they are calling the item HPB, then it must be from Dufferin Aggregates. Worst case - it's the same thing from someone else. A rose, is a rose, is a rose - no matter what you call it.
I tried in vain to find something similar here in Saskatchewan. They said limestone is not realistic. Maybe I'm not asking the right questions though.

Everyone here really pushes something called 'crusher dust' which is said to be leftover concrete run through a crusher. It's said to pack tight and hardens when you water it due to the cement dust it contains.

The crusher dust I looked at does contain a lot of small fine particles which is what I assume 'fines' are. It's basically a sandy powder with rocky bits in it. So the issue is: do I take what all the aggregate sellers recommend (crusher dust) or do I look for something without 'fines'.
Newbie
Jul 24, 2008
76 posts
I'm putting a Rubbermaid Big Max (7' x 7') shed in my back yard & dug out the sod with my sister in law (she's Tim the tool man let me tell ya! lol :D ) & the base under the top soil is pure clay out in these parts. We cut an area out of 8' x 7.5' as a border will go around the shed (helps when cutting the grass down the road).

We took the 1.5 - 2"'s of topsoil out & layed down roughly a half yard of 'chips & dust' which is like the gravel you find on a baseball diamond. A vapour barrier type product was put down before the chips & dust were poured to prevent weeds & the like....leveled it off & put a light spray of water on it....the material will harden like concrete not long after (it is after all very finely crushed concrete). Will be putting 22, 16 x 24" patio stones down this week. Looking great thus far & I'm a total amateur at this stuff. :)

This method is much cheaper than having a professional pour a concrete pad to accomplish the same thing.
Sr. Member
May 18, 2006
997 posts
24 upvotes
eXpedite wrote: Agreed. And you'd find that HPB is cheper than ordering 2 products, which may have to be delivered seperately. Putting down 1 layer of HPB takes 1/2 the time that it takes to lay down gravel, and then sand. And, I'm not disputing the gravel + sand mix is wrong. It's a safe procedure that has yeilded excellent results for so many people. This is why landscapers are hesitant to try something different. But, many eventually do and find that there is a better way. So, you'd find this is becomming quite popular since it WORKS excellent, requires only ONE application, DRAINS fantastic, and is CHEAPER in the long run for delivery and labour costs.

For the home owner, it's hard to mess up. You also only have to order "a little extra" of one product instead of two.

And SAND is absolutely necessary, but you only need a little bit to drop on top of the pavers to lock the joints.

FYI: HPB is defined as "2-5 mm, hard, clean, crushed aggregate containing no fines" So when you inquire about this... if they've never heard of HPB, ask if they have this stuff.

And for now, let's just agree to disagree. I've done it both ways, and saved significant time and frustration with this stuff for the base layer. I was hesitant at first, but extremely happy to have taken the leap of faith!
Pardon what may be a dumb question, but if using HPB as a base for the pavers, will the sand not just very quickly work its way down between the pavers and then end up filtering through the HPB? And might this not de-stabilize the HPB base a little? Just wondering. I'm doing a fairly straightforward walkway, about 2 feet across and 25 feet or so long, with a couple of bigger "landing" areas, and I think this type of base sounds a lot more user-friendly, especially for a rookie like me.
Thanks for all the info!
:)
Deal Expert
User avatar
Dec 26, 2005
17068 posts
1830 upvotes
Thornhill
Qqueen wrote: here is a link for cheap patio stones http://www.woodlandspatio.com/
Where is that place? No address, no nothing. Just a phone number with a 823 area code?
Trust the 20-year expert—Patio Creations—to build you custom designed patios, patio covers, pergolas, decks, porches, and other outdoor living spaces that you require or desire. Our excellent reputation of providing top-notch services and products including the most reasonable project rates has made us the most comprehensive landscape contractor not only in Katy but also in Woodlands.
According to Google, Katy is in Serbia, Woodlands is land with trees :)

bjl
What we do in life echoes in Eternity... and in Google cache.
RFD discounts for Schluter products
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Oct 22, 2007
6110 posts
1117 upvotes
Mississauga
The phone number is traced back to Sugar land Texas. It's near Houston Texas USA.
Jr. Member
User avatar
Mar 25, 2011
186 posts
22 upvotes
Hello,
I have a patio stone question. How do you cut a small wedge out of it? I had to remove one concrete slab of our walkway by the garage so the electrician could install a line but now it does not fit back in because of the electrical pipe running down the garage. I just need to make a one inch wedge in it. Is brute force using a hammer and chisel sufficient? I don't really care how it looks afterwards. Thanks!
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Oct 22, 2007
6110 posts
1117 upvotes
Mississauga
There are several ways to cut, chip, grind concrete, the method used will depend on the tools available and the skill set of the operator.

There are several types and sizes of concrete saw blades available depending on the extend of cutting that needs to be done.

The use of a hammer and chisel will suffice depending on your skill level and depth and size of cut, but cosmetics comes into play.

You can gind down the area with a concrete rotary blade, but this method is the most crude as well as time consuming.
Deal Expert
User avatar
Dec 26, 2005
17068 posts
1830 upvotes
Thornhill
Yeah, if you don't have anything else available, I'd pick up a cheap angle grinder from Canadian Tire and a few masonry blades.

You'll need a set of safety glasses and probably a dust mask as well.

Should be 10min of work at most to notch the corner.

bjl
What we do in life echoes in Eternity... and in Google cache.
RFD discounts for Schluter products

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