Sports & Recreation

Leafs Talk (2022/23): Chat away

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thelefteyeguy wrote: not sure about that...i use to think that but the Raptors momentum is in full force. A generation of Raptors fans will take a dent into season tickets a decade from now.
It's not fun being a Leafs Fan...more than a decade of crap...this is worst than the 80s.
It's not hard making the playoffs...Leafs can't even do it by fluke.
Raptors are not an NHL hockey team, and this is the mecca of hockey markets. They will have little to no effect on the Leafs. It will take a longer than 4 years for the Raptors to have anywhere close to as many fans as the Leafs, and even if & when they do there will still be sellouts every night at the ACC. It's more than just an NHL team in Toronto, it's a religion. Fans aren't going anywhere. This isn't a fad, it's engrained in people's DNA here.

The Raptors are a fad and so are the Jays to an extent. If they do well, their fans support them. If not, well then there are more empty seats than there are with fans in them. They were having a hard time practically giving away Raps tickets for free not 3-4 years ago. The Leafs won't have that problem for at least a very long time. Toronto FC are proving to be more like the Leafs so far, being that their fanbase is there no matter how horribly they've done.
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Zamboni wrote: I don't like Phaneuf but do think he might fetch a (late) 1st rounder btw now and the trade deadline-especially if a good team runs into injuries. Phaneuf is a decent 3-4 D, an upgrade over the 3-4 D on most teams. Its the long term commitment that will make most GM's wary of bringing in Phaneuf.....but if he can help a team go deep into the playoffs....some GM might take the chance hoping he can then trade Phaneuf/contract after the playoff run.
I would be happy with a 2nd round pick because of the huge salary.
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Have to agree with Kramerz80, no matter how poorly the Leafs record while rebuilding it won't affect ticket sales. I was offered 2 tickets for Saturday's game-not even a Leafs fan but will go....brutal season, $$ to park and building will always be full.. Only the scalpers will suffer during a rebuild.

As for 30th pick- scouting has improved a lot in past 5 years. It's getting harder to find 'gems' in later rounds, junior hockey is now big business, lots of HD video coverage-should lead to less mistakes in top 45 picks. Its true the players drafted are 17-18, still developing...but it has gotten easier to draft making late first rounders more valuable.

If a team battling for a playoff spot would (doubtful) trade its first rounder for Phaneuf that's the Leafs best move....trade and hope the team does poorly.
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kramerz80 wrote: Raptors are not an NHL hockey team, and this is the mecca of hockey markets. They will have little to no effect on the Leafs. It will take a longer than 4 years for the Raptors to have anywhere close to as many fans as the Leafs, and even if & when they do there will still be sellouts every night at the ACC. It's more than just an NHL team in Toronto, it's a religion. Fans aren't going anywhere. This isn't a fad, it's engrained in people's DNA here.

The Raptors are a fad and so are the Jays to an extent. If they do well, their fans support them. If not, well then there are more empty seats than there are with fans in them. They were having a hard time practically giving away Raps tickets for free not 3-4 years ago. The Leafs won't have that problem for at least a very long time. Toronto FC are proving to be more like the Leafs so far, being that their fanbase is there no matter how horribly they've done.
Engrain...that's the word....for the pass decade...the Leafs have not been engrained in the current generation; nor for the next 5 years...15 years is a whole generation.

I wouldn't call the Jays a Fad...averaging 30K in attendance. These are coming hardcore fans mostly during the playoff runs.
And the raptors...i use to think that...i don't now. Raps fans are force...
We'll see how successful the Leafs fans turnover in the next 10 years.
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Zamboni wrote: Have to agree with Kramerz80, no matter how poorly the Leafs record while rebuilding it won't affect ticket sales. I was offered 2 tickets for Saturday's game-not even a Leafs fan but will go....brutal season, $$ to park and building will always be full.. Only the scalpers will suffer during a rebuild.

As for 30th pick- scouting has improved a lot in past 5 years. It's getting harder to find 'gems' in later rounds, junior hockey is now big business, lots of HD video coverage-should lead to less mistakes in top 45 picks. Its true the players drafted are 17-18, still developing...but it has gotten easier to draft making late first rounders more valuable.

If a team battling for a playoff spot would (doubtful) trade its first rounder for Phaneuf that's the Leafs best move....trade and hope the team does poorly.
Again...im not arguing about the present....in about 5-10 years. Season Ticket holders are from the 1950-70s mostly.

I use to share the same argument with both you. We'll see in a decade whether the Leafs can still retain fans from the generation from the past decade.
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This rebuilding could last about 2 months. Depending on how the Leafs finish and if they end up with the number 1/2 pick it could again start a retool/reload in the summer. Shop Lupul/Clarkson/Bozak/Gardiner/Goalie/UFAs now.
Wait for the summer for Kessel/Phanuef.
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bobcat99 wrote: This rebuilding could last about 2 months. Depending on how the Leafs finish and if they end up with the number 1/2 pick it could again start a retool/reload in the summer. Shop Lupul/Clarkson/Bozak/Gardiner/Goalie/UFAs now.
Wait for the summer for Kessel/Phanuef.
Clarkson for a conditional 7th rounder!
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thelefteyeguy wrote: Engrain...that's the word....for the pass decade...the Leafs have not been engrained in the current generation; nor for the next 5 years...15 years is a whole generation.

I wouldn't call the Jays a Fad...averaging 30K in attendance. These are coming hardcore fans mostly during the playoff runs.
And the raptors...i use to think that...i don't now. Raps fans are force...
We'll see how successful the Leafs fans turnover in the next 10 years.
These generations are passed down. I see it in my family & friends, fans taking their kids to Leaf games, getting them jerseys, etc. The momentum will keep going. The waiting list for season tickets is still in the THOUSANDS, and those season seat holders have the options of passing them on to someone else in the family if I'm not mistaken. If I put my name on that list now I'd likely not live to see the day it comes up, as I'd not likely see the day when basketball is bigger than hockey in Canada.

The Jays are a fad, the numbers prove it. They've averaged ~30K over the last two seasons when they had all this hype around them & had high expectations. Prior to that, they averaged 25K or under for 4 seasons they finished poorly and not much hype. 3 years before that they were not quite 30K but high 20s when they were again in the mix with good expectations. Look at the years before that and they were down again below the 25K mark and even below 20K when nobody cared about them. Very cyclical and very closely related to the performance and hype around the team. They're nowhere near the 50K average in the early 90s when they actually had a contending team. If you don't call that a "fad" I dont know that you'd be able to call anything a fad.

Source - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams ... tend.shtml
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kramerz80 wrote: Fans will be there regardless of the product on the ice, don't kid yourself.
There may be a slight dip in attendance of real "Average Joe" type fans but renewing season ticket holders and corporate seats will almost surely hold steady. Season ticket holders have to renew anyways given the wait list, or else they won't be able to get back in when they potentially really want to some years later.
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bobcat99 wrote: This rebuilding could last about 2 months. Depending on how the Leafs finish and if they end up with the number 1/2 pick it could again start a retool/reload in the summer. Shop Lupul/Clarkson/Bozak/Gardiner/Goalie/UFAs now.
Wait for the summer for Kessel/Phanuef.
You mean fire sale?

Rebuilding takes years...especially how the current one is being sold to the board. The board is not going to approve any multi year ufa or trade. Stock pile picks.
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Phaneuf, Kessel, Lupul and Clarkson aren't going anywhere before the deadline. The uncertainty of the next year's cap really limits the market of these big contracts. And really, the Leafs are dealing from a position of weakness.

What's more likely to happen is that teams will come knocking from these guys around the draft since they'll find deficiencies in their teams and will look to maybe make changes to their core. That way, other teams may be more receptive to those contract and the Leafs might get something more substantial back.
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thelefteyeguy wrote: You mean fire sale?

Rebuilding takes years...especially how the current one is being sold to the board. The board is not going to approve any multi year ufa or trade. Stock pile picks.
The board's mind can change on a yearly basis. See Brian Burke. Today it's a rebuild, tomorrow it's a retool, again depending on what happens in the draft this year. Nobody has really confirmed or denied the rebuild.
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kramerz80 wrote: These generations are passed down. I see it in my family & friends, fans taking their kids to Leaf games, getting them jerseys, etc. The momentum will keep going. The waiting list for season tickets is still in the THOUSANDS, and those season seat holders have the options of passing them on to someone else in the family if I'm not mistaken. If I put my name on that list now I'd likely not live to see the day it comes up, as I'd not likely see the day when basketball is bigger than hockey in Canada.

The Jays are a fad, the numbers prove it. They've averaged ~30K over the last two seasons when they had all this hype around them & had high expectations. Prior to that, they averaged 25K or under for 4 seasons they finished poorly and not much hype. 3 years before that they were not quite 30K but high 20s when they were again in the mix with good expectations. Look at the years before that and they were down again below the 25K mark and even below 20K when nobody cared about them. Very cyclical and very closely related to the performance and hype around the team. They're nowhere near the 50K average in the early 90s when they actually had a contending team. If you don't call that a "fad" I dont know that you'd be able to call anything a fad.

Source - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams ... tend.shtml
Your arguments puts words in my mouth lol.
You make it sound like my argument was baseball was going to be bigger than hockey in Canada.
30K for the Jays is decent....even 25k is ok.

Anyways...been moderating this thread for a long time...I know about the strong support. But this feels different. A decade of crap will hit the fan eventually.
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kramerz80 wrote: These generations are passed down. I see it in my family & friends, fans taking their kids to Leaf games, getting them jerseys, etc. The momentum will keep going. The waiting list for season tickets is still in the THOUSANDS, and those season seat holders have the options of passing them on to someone else in the family if I'm not mistaken. If I put my name on that list now I'd likely not live to see the day it comes up, as I'd not likely see the day when basketball is bigger than hockey in Canada.

The Jays are a fad, the numbers prove it. They've averaged ~30K over the last two seasons when they had all this hype around them & had high expectations. Prior to that, they averaged 25K or under for 4 seasons they finished poorly and not much hype. 3 years before that they were not quite 30K but high 20s when they were again in the mix with good expectations. Look at the years before that and they were down again below the 25K mark and even below 20K when nobody cared about them. Very cyclical and very closely related to the performance and hype around the team. They're nowhere near the 50K average in the early 90s when they actually had a contending team. If you don't call that a "fad" I dont know that you'd be able to call anything a fad.

Source - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams ... tend.shtml
It sucks that Leaf fans can't speak with their wallets ticket-wise like Jays fans can since the AAC is always sold out. We can still affect merchandise/apparel/fan gear sales though. Hopefully MLSE will feel the hit in lower sales, although it could be argued that now isn't the time to do it as they are actually showing acknowledgement that the team needs to be rebuilt and have started doing so. The appropriate time to protest would have been throughout the past decade and longer, not now.
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Evil Baby wrote: I'm sure just about any team is interested in Kessel if they don't have to give up any meaningful assets.
Heard on the radio that Kessel has a list of 10 teams he's willing to go to.
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Haz wrote: Heard on the radio that Kessel has a list of 10 teams he's willing to go to.
To BB and Calgary for 2 1st rounders and 2nd round pick. Try it Nonis.
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Jokinen and Clarkson on the same line... talk about a black hole...

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