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Leafs Talk (2022/23): Chat away

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Jan 27, 2005
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kramerz80 wrote: I hope you're kidding, although I feel like you're serious when you write this crap. It will be nowhere near impossible to move these two, both have value for a lot of teams.

Just because Kessel isn't Toews or Crosby doesn't mean he is worthless and can't be traded. His contract is exactly where it should be in terms of $ and an elite goal scorer in the NHL is not easy to come by. Only 3 players have more goals than Kessel in the past 5 years combined - Ovechkin, Perry and Stamkos. You've got to be bat***** crazy if you think that teams would not want to have this kind of firepower on their wings. He's only 28 years old and is not a pending UFA anytime soon. Ovechkin and Stamkos aren't known to be defensive specialists either, do you think that they would also be impossible to be moved?

I didn't expect Kessel or Phaneuf to be moved before the deadline as most didn't. It's tougher to make those moves mid season due to salary cap issues, they'll have a number of teams interested in the summer once they know what the cap is gonna be next year and a lot of teams will have more cap room with contracts coming off their books at the end of the year. I thought Lupul may have been moved, but I'd expect to see him go over the summer as well. Phaneuf will be the hardest of the 3 to move, but there will be enough interest to get a deal done.
Thank you.

Kessel will be EASY TO MOVE. EASY. The question is how much do you get back for him - the asking price will NOT be low.
Phaneuf will be more challenging, but to think this is impossible is ridiculous. He is and can be a 2nd D, or a top end 3rd.

What Toronto fans don't get is that when you rebuild - you can only trade your assets ONCE. What you get back is your foundation for the rebuild - whether its picks or prospects or both. You don't simply give them away. If it takes til next year to trade them, then so be it.

Toronto will not have to take any salary back on any players - but what I hope they do is offer to take some salary back for the first few years (if thats possible) since we won't be near a cap team. In doing so, cap teams would be all over that and it'll give them a few years to fix their cap issues!
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I cannot remember a STAR leaf player that has not been booed out of town lol... Toronto fans find one scapegoat after another.
Even when you are rebuilding we are still ripping them.

If Kessel got 50 goals, people would still be ripping him for lack of effort.
Leafs won maybe 1 or 2 games w/ phaneuf out of the lineup?

And for those saying Kessel is so fat and lacks effort... Seguin vs Kessel in the relay at the all star game... who won?
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Zamboni wrote: I see that-still, those are players you want if rebuilding so it make me wonder how committed the Leafs brass are to tearing the Leafs apart. Kessel was tradeable, should have been moved for best draft picks offered-free up cap space to sign Santorelli and Winnik. Kessel is not a player you want around young players...despite the press talking about it he is still first off the ice every practice, coasts during drills and is uninterested when the coach talks. If Phaneuf was 1/2 a captain he would have called out Kessel long ago.

The Leafs did ensure a lower finish by moving the players they did.
There was no reason for them to keep Santorelli and Winnik at this point. Both are either 29 years old and UFAs at the end of the season, you'd be looking at them being between 32-35 years old once the rebuild starts really going. At that point they would be on the wrong side of the age column, if we're going with a rebuild you're looking at needing some younger players. Don't get me wrong, you'd need some veterans to show them the ropes and to mentor them along the way, I'm not sure that Winnik and Santorelli would be the best fit for that though. We should be able to sign some older players on a short term contract with the character to fill that role, guys like the Jagrs etc. right now.

I'd rather have the picks/assets right now instead of holding on to them, we can easily re-sign them in the summer if we (and they) wanted to. Moving them was a no-brainer at this point.
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nfnx wrote: I cannot remember a STAR leaf player that has not been booed out of town lol... Toronto fans find one scapegoat after another.
Even when you are rebuilding we are still ripping them.

If Kessel got 50 goals, people would still be ripping him for lack of effort.
Leafs won maybe 1 or 2 games w/ phaneuf out of the lineup?

And for those saying Kessel is so fat and lacks effort... Seguin vs Kessel in the relay at the all star game... who won?
Oh Toronto fans in general are the worst when it comes to that, they really lack common sense a lot of the time. The worst one I can think of was Sundin, the guy pledged his loyalty to us and did everything he could for this organization, was then pretty much asked by management to take a hike and everyone got upset when he said he wanted to retire as a Leaf. Like give me a break, that's when you know you have your head so far up your ass you can smell what your brain is thinking.

If you aren't performing like God in Toronto, expect to be thrown to the wolves. It really makes for a bad atmosphere for the players, that's why a lot of athletes can't succeed here. It's great when things are going good, but watch out if you have a bad game or three, good luck.
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kramerz80 wrote: I hope you're kidding, although I feel like you're serious when you write this crap. It will be nowhere near impossible to move these two, both have value for a lot of teams.

Just because Kessel isn't Toews or Crosby doesn't mean he is worthless and can't be traded. His contract is exactly where it should be in terms of $ and an elite goal scorer in the NHL is not easy to come by. Only 3 players have more goals than Kessel in the past 5 years combined - Ovechkin, Perry and Stamkos. You've got to be bat***** crazy if you think that teams would not want to have this kind of firepower on their wings. He's only 28 years old and is not a pending UFA anytime soon. Ovechkin and Stamkos aren't known to be defensive specialists either, do you think that they would also be impossible to be moved?

I didn't expect Kessel or Phaneuf to be moved before the deadline as most didn't. It's tougher to make those moves mid season due to salary cap issues, they'll have a number of teams interested in the summer once they know what the cap is gonna be next year and a lot of teams will have more cap room with contracts coming off their books at the end of the year. I thought Lupul may have been moved, but I'd expect to see him go over the summer as well. Phaneuf will be the hardest of the 3 to move, but there will be enough interest to get a deal done.
chill..i meant at the trading deadline...why so dramatic?
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kramerz80 wrote: Oh Toronto fans in general are the worst when it comes to that, they really lack common sense a lot of the time. The worst one I can think of was Sundin, the guy pledged his loyalty to us and did everything he could for this organization, was then pretty much asked by management to take a hike and everyone got upset when he said he wanted to retire as a Leaf. Like give me a break, that's when you know you have your head so far up your ass you can smell what your brain is thinking.

If you aren't performing like God in Toronto, expect to be thrown to the wolves. It really makes for a bad atmosphere for the players, that's why a lot of athletes can't succeed here. It's great when things are going good, but watch out if you have a bad game or three, good luck.
you are pointing at one end of the extreme.

The other end is how Leafs fans have deify Wendal Clark, Gilmore, Gary Roberts....none brought the cup to Toronto.

Not going to even remotely discuss the Sundin situation....there were faults on both ends (Leafs and Sundin). Fans were on both sides of the fence. There are arguments on both sides. I can make an argument on why some Leafs fans don't like Sundin.
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kramerz80 wrote: Just because Kessel isn't Toews or Crosby doesn't mean he is worthless and can't be traded. His contract is exactly where it should be in terms of $ and an elite goal scorer in the NHL is not easy to come by. Only 3 players have more goals than Kessel in the past 5 years combined - Ovechkin, Perry and Stamkos. You've got to be bat***** crazy if you think that teams would not want to have this kind of firepower on their wings. He's only 28 years old and is not a pending UFA anytime soon. Ovechkin and Stamkos aren't known to be defensive specialists either, do you think that they would also be impossible to be moved?
Kessel doesn't belong in that class... Period.

Kessel makes $8M per year and has scored 117 goals in the past 4 seasons.

Max Pacioretty has scored the exact same # of goals as Kessel the past 4 years and makes $4.5M.

And Max plays both ends of the rink, PP/PK etc. He's a professional who actually works out in the off-season and leads by example.

He may have the best contract in the NHL (from a team perspective).

All things that Kessel doesn't do.

The problem with the Leafs big contracts is the amounts are for superstars....the guys getting them simply aren't that.

Kessel, Phaneuf, Clarkson, Lupul are all overpaid...Bozak likely as well. he isn't a #1 centre.
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nfnx wrote: I cannot remember a STAR leaf player that has not been booed out of town lol... Toronto fans find one scapegoat after another.
Even when you are rebuilding we are still ripping them.

If Kessel got 50 goals, people would still be ripping him for lack of effort.
Leafs won maybe 1 or 2 games w/ phaneuf out of the lineup?

And for those saying Kessel is so fat and lacks effort... Seguin vs Kessel in the relay at the all star game... who won?
lol...if Kessel scored 50 goals...the Leafs would likely be in the playoff run...based on the GF/GA on the other teams on the rim of wild card.

Hopefully Kessel can be moved in the offseason...I remember Canuck fans said Mr Beachball would be moved fast...it took an eternity.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with Kessel, its the players around him that are no good. When a team isn't doing well its easy to blame the #1 player which happens to be a one-way winger with a skillset that only a few players in the NHL have. Put 2 good complete players on his line and he can get away with being the type of player he is more. Its just too late to realize that he isn't THE guy to build around and he is what he is.
Remember to be an RFD-er and NOT a degenerate.
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Swerny wrote: Kessel doesn't belong in that class... Period.

Kessel makes $8M per year and has scored 117 goals in the past 4 seasons.

Max Pacioretty has scored the exact same # of goals as Kessel the past 4 years and makes $4.5M.

And Max plays both ends of the rink, PP/PK etc. He's a professional who actually works out in the off-season and leads by example.

He may have the best contract in the NHL (from a team perspective).

All things that Kessel doesn't do.
I'm sorry, what class are you talking about here? Because I specifically said elite goal scorers, of which Kessel does belong. Stats don't lie. If you're talking about another class, then we're not on the same page. I wasn't talking about defensive abilities.

As for the Pacioretty contract - that was signed almost 3 years ago, and he was going to be an RFA the following season. You can't compare the two, Kessel was scheduled to become a UFA and it was 2 years later with a larger cap and bigger average salaries. Pacioretty would command that much and more on the open market today as a UFA. You may as well compare Kessel's contract to Jagr's back in '96 and say that Kessel isn't worth it because Jagr only made blah blah blah...
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kramerz80 wrote: I'm sorry, what class are you talking about here? Because I specifically said elite goal scorers, of which Kessel does belong. Stats don't lie. If you're talking about another class, then we're not on the same page. I wasn't talking about defensive abilities.

As for the Pacioretty contract - that was signed almost 3 years ago, and he was going to be an RFA the following season. You can't compare the two, Kessel was scheduled to become a UFA and it was 2 years later with a larger cap and bigger average salaries. Pacioretty would command that much and more on the open market today as a UFA. You may as well compare Kessel's contract to Jagr's back in '96 and say that Kessel isn't worth it because Jagr only made blah blah blah...
The only reason Kessel is an elite goal scorer is because he cherry picks and shoots a ridiculous high number of shots. If you made that pudgy doughboy play a 200-ft game he would be out of gas on most shifts and would probably be a 10-15 goal scorer per year. not really worth 8 million dollars.
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hyperactiveme wrote: Everyone should listen to Renaud Lavoie speak about Montreal and how that media smartened up. Very insightful.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/tim-and-sid ... ing-media/
Habs are the top team in the East with probably the best goaltender in the world right now. If they were bottom dwellers like the Laffs I'm sure the Montreal media and fans would tear them apart.
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Jan 27, 2005
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I guess what annoys me is that most Leaf fans either never played hockey or don't watch the games. Someone on the radio calls Phaneuf a pylon and someone in the media says he needs to pick up his game, and then suddenly we have a movement of fans calling in asking to trade Phaneuf for a bag of pucks.

It's really ridiculous. For the longest time (prior to this slump), he was a high plus player (despite low point totals), while playing high minutes against top players...
He DOES get burned from time to time due to slow feet, but guess what, so does Weber, Keith and Chara! Phaneuf was never a number 1 - but like I said, he's an elite 3 and a good 2 on any team. The biggest problem with him is that he is our best Dman and Toronto fans can't separate what they want him to be vs what he is. Put him with a legit 1 and watch him excel.

But then again, these are the same Leafs fans that were pissed that we "traded for Olli Jokinen" during a rebuild (laugh). And then got pissed that we only got a conditional pick for him when we moved him.... *smh

Oh and don't get me started on the fans that say we should trade Bernier for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.... *facepalm*
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iamskyhigh wrote: The only reason Kessel is an elite goal scorer is because he cherry picks and shoots a ridiculous high number of shots. If you made that pudgy doughboy play a 200-ft game he would be out of gas on most shifts and would probably be a 10-15 goal scorer per year. not really worth 8 million dollars.
Man you are bang on aren't you?

It's definitely not because he has one of the best shots in the game, or because he can move his pudgy doughboy figure faster than most players in the NHL, or because he has the hockey sense, ability and skill of a sniper. It's all because he sits at the opposing blue line all game and shoots 15 shots on net a game. Clearly. You figured him out. I wonder why the 29 other coaches, 29 other teams, 180+ defenseman and 60+ goalies in the league can't figure him out like you just did. You need to get into the NHL in some sort of management position ASAP, you're wasting your time doing anything else with your life. :facepalm:
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kramerz80 wrote: Man you are bang on aren't you?

It's definitely not because he has one of the best shots in the game, or because he can move his pudgy doughboy figure faster than most players in the NHL, or because he has the hockey sense, ability and skill of a sniper. It's all because he sits at the opposing blue line all game and shoots 15 shots on net a game. Clearly. You figured him out. I wonder why the 29 other coaches, 29 other teams, 180+ defenseman and 60+ goalies in the league can't figure him out like you just did. You need to get into the NHL in some sort of management position ASAP, you're wasting your time doing anything else with your life. :facepalm:
lol - again is it not ridiculous to call Kessel pudgy? He is one of the FASTEST skaters in the league and oh yeah, he beat Seguin (who's in much "better" shape).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qjlOJORuAE
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I'm not even a big fan of Kessel or Phaneuf, but come on use some common sense people. Pull the blinders off your eyes, ditch the mob mentality and look at it with a clear perspective. The players we have are good at what they do and are good pieces to a team. We just have the wrong combination of pieces here, and they are put into roles they shouldn't be put in.

Kessel is not a franchise player, nor is he a two way player. He is a goal scorer. PERIOD. It ends there. People want him to be more than that, people want him to be Toews, or Crosby. He is Kessel. He is an elite goal scorer in the NHL and there are very few players in the NHL today who can put the puck into the net more times than he can. Get over it.

Phaneuf is not a shut down defenseman, nor should he be playing the amount of time he has been with us. Nor should he be captain. He is a really good offensive defenseman, great on the PP. He shouldn't be on the ice in the final minutes when we are up by a goal, or killing penalties. PERIOD. He is not Shea Weber, or Duncan Keith. He is Phaneuf. He is a good defenceman who is put into a role he should never have been put in. Get over it.
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nfnx wrote: lol - again is it not ridiculous to call Kessel pudgy? He is one of the FASTEST skaters in the league and oh yeah, he beat Seguin (who's in much "better" shape).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qjlOJORuAE
Please don't use anything that happens in the All-Stars weekend as reference to real game performance. If that is the case then boy does Carey Price stink or what.
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kramerz80 wrote: I'm not even a big fan of Kessel or Phaneuf, but come on use some common sense people. Pull the blinders off your eyes, ditch the mob mentality and look at it with a clear perspective. The players we have are good at what they do and are good pieces to a team. We just have the wrong combination of pieces here, and they are put into roles they shouldn't be put in.

Kessel is not a franchise player, nor is he a two way player. He is a goal scorer. PERIOD. It ends there. People want him to be more than that, people want him to be Toews, or Crosby. He is Kessel. He is an elite goal scorer in the NHL and there are very few players in the NHL today who can put the puck into the net more times than he can. Get over it.

Phaneuf is not a shut down defenseman, nor should he be playing the amount of time he has been with us. Nor should he be captain. He is a really good offensive defenseman, great on the PP. He shouldn't be on the ice in the final minutes when we are up by a goal, or killing penalties. PERIOD. He is not Shea Weber, or Duncan Keith. He is Phaneuf. He is a good defenceman who is put into a role he should never have been put in. Get over it.
Kessel reminds me of Alexander Mogilny...I did early on think that Kessel could become...a great 2 way player.
Maybe a few more years for Kessel to get there...or not.

Perhaps Kessel can be traded to the Devils to learn to play defence?



"Phaneuf is not a shut down defenseman, nor should he be playing the amount of time he has been with us. Nor should he be captain. He is a really good offensive defenseman, great on the PP. He shouldn't be on the ice in the final minutes when we are up by a goal, or killing penalties. PERIOD. He is not Shea Weber, or Duncan Keith. He is Phaneuf. He is a good defenceman who is put into a role he should never have been put in. Get over it?"
You can't expect Leaf fans to lower expectations when in fact...he is the Captain and the highest paid dman on the leafs then...can the coach get away with that ?

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