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Liberals plan on a major boost to the minimum wage jumping from the current $11.40 to as high as $15

  • Last Updated:
  • Aug 12th, 2017 6:01 pm
Sr. Member
Nov 13, 2013
601 posts
206 upvotes
alanbrenton wrote:
Jun 5th, 2017 1:06 pm
So...
  • business owners will vote out the incumbent party
  • minimum wage earners can vote whoever they want since the minimum wage is not going to roll back down
  • government workers will vote incumbent because PC could slash and burn

Did the incumbent commit harakiri? Calls for an interesting June 2018 election.
If voting on their own economic interest Minimum wage workers should vote for the government. Highly unlikely they get that last $1 per hour if PCs come in. If I were to bet I would guess they vaguely promise to continue the increase and then when they get into power they announce the the effect of the increase has been job losses etc and leave it at $14. S
Minimum wage workers tend to be politically disengaged though so they may or may not be making the calculation.

Still hard to see after this many years and this much controversy the government surviving. They got lucky the past two elections because of horrible PC platforms. Ironically if the the PCs had won in 2013 they would be cruising to re-election right now given how strong the economy is and they would be taking a lot of the credit. Brown is not strong but he could go to Vegas for the 4 weeks of the campaign and probably still win. I am sure his platform will be very bland and non-controversial. Leave the cutting to the usual t"the books are worse than we thought" discovery.
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May 7, 2017
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fogetmylogin wrote:
Jun 5th, 2017 1:21 pm
If voting on their own economic interest Minimum wage workers should vote for the government. Highly unlikely they get that last $1 per hour if PCs come in. If I were to bet I would guess they vaguely promise to continue the increase and then when they get into power they announce the the effect of the increase has been job losses etc and leave it at $14. S
Minimum wage workers tend to be politically disengaged though so they may or may not be making the calculation.

Still hard to see after this many years and this much controversy the government surviving. They got lucky the past two elections because of horrible PC platforms. Ironically if the the PCs had won in 2013 they would be cruising to re-election right now given how strong the economy is and they would be taking a lot of the credit. Brown is not strong but he could go to Vegas for the 4 weeks of the campaign and probably still win. I am sure his platform will be very bland and non-controversial. Leave the cutting to the usual t"the books are worse than we thought" discovery.
Hardly anyone votes in their own interest. It is mostly an emotional response.
Sr. Member
Feb 19, 2017
648 posts
288 upvotes
onthefence wrote:
Jun 6th, 2017 9:35 am
Hardly anyone votes in their own interest. It is mostly an emotional response.
That's kind of majority of people work sadly. They use feelings and emotions to make judgments instead of facts and logic. Not saying emotional responses are all terrible, pretty sure most of our history is us reacting to emotional scenes to make drastic changes to how society works (look at the horrors of the holocaust and the drastic changes that occurred because of emotional response there, yet the horrors of socialism/communism which has less imagery evoke less emotional response despite 10+ times the body count), but when it comes to financial/political decisions one really should be less emotional and vote in their interests instead of how things "feel". Should be more "lost billions in waste and doubled debt" and less "I feel she'll do better next time cause Conservatives never care about people".
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Sr. Member
Feb 19, 2017
648 posts
288 upvotes
alanbrenton wrote:
Jun 6th, 2017 2:13 pm
Best / Most liked comments are generally positive about the minimum wage increase. I totally understand how many business owners are not going to be happy.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/minimum ... -1.4141311
Ya well that's the CBC, why not just rename ourselves the Soviet Socialist Republic of Canada while we try to believe that is an accurate gage of normal Canadians.

Min Wage increases popular with sites like CBC and Huffpost as the majority of them are read by tech savvy millennials who are complete idiots when it comes to actual economics (fair warning, I am a self hating millennial, as in I hate being associated with this group). They look at themselves with their min wage jobs and think, "Hey I can afford more just by forcing the government to tell everyone how much I'm worth" while they get a government inflated sense of worth. They then choose to ignore the teens and other youth who don't have the opportunity to get these starting jobs as the millennials did as they are now priced out of the market and businesses hire less, thus giving the next generation less opportunity than they had.

Millennials bitch all the time that the Baby Boomers screwed over their generation by saddling us with high debt, unaffordable housing, and contemptuous attitude toward our struggles, but already millennials are following in their footsteps. Good signs for the future.
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Apr 21, 2004
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With all the talk that prices of goods and services will go up as a result of this, I am still empathetic to the plight of hard working people who can only land minimum wage jobs. Sure, many businesses will cut down the hours or staff numbers but the more diligent, honest, and hard workings ones are likely going to be able to keep their jobs, and now receive higher pay.

Businesses can choose to raise their prices but people can choose where they want to spend the leftover money on anyway so if their goods are highly priced inelastic, they should go for it (why they didn't do it before confounds me though). I doubt labor consists more than 50% of business input unless it was a service type of business (cleaning, mowing, etc.) so if businesses were to pass on the increase, it couldn't be more than 15% across the board (it could be more if every supplier raised their prices) and it would be foolish for them to do that if the industry is highly competitive.

I may think differently if I owned a business but as a middle class income household, I don't mind taking a small hit, if at all, if others can be able to afford to buy a few more things with every pay cheque.

If I was barely making minimum at my current job and detest this increase, then this would have lit a fire under my a$$ and I would start looking for a better paying job or sharpening my skill set.
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alanbrenton wrote:
Jun 6th, 2017 2:13 pm
I totally understand how many business owners are not going to be happy.
For what it's worth, continuing to raise the minimum wage in Ontario has been a long term plan since 2008. It started as one of the Liberal promises during the 2007 Election, but like every campaign promise it's up to the public servants to actually do the work. Politicians come up with some ideas, but the far majority of public announcements are developed and implemented by public servants.

Raising minimum wage goes through years of development. This includes research, business cases and stakeholder (communities and businesses) consultations. Consultations were all advertised in various media (newspapers, radio, ontario.ca and politicians' newsletters) and everyone was invited. Business owners and business associations definitely participated. This really wasn't some random early election campaign announcement. It's been in development going through consultations and approvals for a while. I'd even bet that at least 98% of it was the work of regular public servants and not the elected politicians.

And the thing is, this is how pretty much every government policy works.

On a side note, back in 2014 when minimum wage went up to $11, people were crying about the same thing -- oh boo hoo Nobody will want to work anymore! Businesses will hate it! Prices on everything will go up! But none of that happened.

There's also data from Seattle when they had raised the minimum wage in 2015 to $12.50/hr USD where it didn't change anything except for some restaurants raising prices. Businesses that weren't labour intensive didn't have any increase on their prices. Other businesses looked for cost savings in other parts of their business. And competition meant that some other businesses just couldn't raise prices.
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Jul 13, 2012
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Ottawa
One of my concerns about this plan is that it seems to be an effort to replace jobs that were traditionally higher paying (manufacturing, skilled/semi skilled labour, resource extraction, etc.) by simply raising tbe wages of all jobs.
Deal Addict
Jul 13, 2012
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Mulder and Scully wrote:
Jun 6th, 2017 7:57 pm
For what it's worth, continuing to raise the minimum wage in Ontario has been a long term plan since 2008. It started as one of the Liberal promises during the 2007 Election, but like every campaign promise it's up to the public servants to actually do the work. Politicians come up with some ideas, but the far majority of public announcements are developed and implemented by public servants.

Raising minimum wage goes through years of development. This includes research, business cases and stakeholder (communities and businesses) consultations. Consultations were all advertised in various media (newspapers, radio, ontario.ca and politicians' newsletters) and everyone was invited. Business owners and business associations definitely participated. This really wasn't some random early election campaign announcement. It's been in development going through consultations and approvals for a while. I'd even bet that at least 98% of it was the work of regular public servants and not the elected politicians.

And the thing is, this is how pretty much every government policy works.

On a side note, back in 2014 when minimum wage went up to $11, people were crying about the same thing -- oh boo hoo Nobody will want to work anymore! Businesses will hate it! Prices on everything will go up! But none of that happened.

There's also data from Seattle when they had raised the minimum wage in 2015 to $12.50/hr USD where it didn't change anything except for some restaurants raising prices. Businesses that weren't labour intensive didn't have any increase on their prices. Other businesses looked for cost savings in other parts of their business. And competition meant that some other businesses just couldn't raise prices.
Generally though "living wage" laws have only passed in urban areas that already have a high cost of living. Ontario's will not only apply to Toronto and Ottawa, but also Nowheresville, ON and Tiny-Village-Near-The-Overpass, ON. Toronto and Ottawa may be able to afford it, bjt many businesses in small towns will not.
Sr. Member
Feb 19, 2017
648 posts
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Mulder and Scully wrote:
Jun 6th, 2017 7:57 pm
On a side note, back in 2014 when minimum wage went up to $11, people were crying about the same thing -- oh boo hoo Nobody will want to work anymore! Businesses will hate it! Prices on everything will go up! But none of that happened.
Ya well $11.00 prices went up, $15.00 I guarantee I will no longer tip in any restaurant anywhere to make up for the cost difference. I used to tip from 10-25% depending on service and I will feel quite crappy about the fact that servers and the like are about to make less money from me (let's face it, they hardly declare any tips on taxes) and I can no longer reward their good work.

People seem to believe minimum wage is supposed to be a "living wage" or that someone working full-time on min wage can live on their own in 2000 sq ft home with a stay at home wife and 2 kids and a dog, this is not what min wage is. Min wage is supposed to be an entry point, to gain experience and some money to propel yourself forward. Youth depend on min wage jobs to get the experience every single employer requires later in life, and all this will do is cripple them in the job market both present and in the future.

Truly what this does is reward those who are not willing to sacrifice to make a better life for themselves, those who work minimum wage jobs for 10+ years thinking stuff will improve on its own one day and never needing to struggle or try to get ahead in life. And I don't say this from some elitist perch, I come from a single mother household who worked min wage and put herself through school while raising two small children. Lot of food bank begging and stuff but she did it (and had no education or family support) and god a decent job and kept the family going. But the fact is there's so much support in our society for people to get ahead that pretty much everyone can do it, work hard, study hard, get ahead. It can be done.

People need to get past the concept that min wage can support a family, it's not meant to, it's meant to start you on the ground floor of a career that will improve your wage and living conditions. To improve your life is hard work, it's not supposed to be a given. And populist measures that don't improve anyone's living conditions are not helping anyone. You know what would help? Actually launching our economy forward and creating a worker shortage as businesses would need to compete for workers instead.
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Jul 30, 2010
755 posts
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dealseaker101 wrote:
Jun 7th, 2017 4:52 pm
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Seattle/Washington state increased their minimum wage to $15 a while ago and their unemployment rate is as low as ever.

Here is a link to some news articles as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/commen ... ty/dic3izq
This may also correlate with the fact that the cost of living there is insanely high. Apparently 100K salary doesn't get you very far. Pick your poison.
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LeisureSuitL wrote:
Jun 7th, 2017 5:54 pm
This may also correlate with the fact that the cost of living there is insanely high. Apparently 100K salary doesn't get you very far. Pick your poison.
Probably Seattle but Issaquah where my BIL lives is reasonably affordable. Lots of jobs likely within an hour's driving.
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LoANeal wrote:
Jun 7th, 2017 11:31 am
Ya well $11.00 prices went up, $15.00 I guarantee I will no longer tip in any restaurant anywhere to make up for the cost difference.
Prices didn't go up when minimum wage was raised to $8 in 2007.
Prices didn't go up when minimum wage was raised to $10.25 in 2010.
Prices didn't go up when minimum wage was raised to $11 in 2014.

Data from other places, e.g, Seattle, which have increased minimum wage in the past indicates that prices don't go up.

When prices do go up, historically it's been due to the cost of goods increasing, not the cost of labour.
LoANeal wrote:
Jun 7th, 2017 11:31 am
People seem to believe minimum wage is supposed to be a "living wage" or that someone working full-time on min wage can live on their own in 2000 sq ft home with a stay at home wife and 2 kids and a dog
Nobody thinks this.
LoANeal wrote:
Jun 7th, 2017 11:31 am
People need to get past the concept that min wage can support a family
Nobody thinks this.

Minimum wage is the minimum standard for basic labour. It's the base point which can be used for labour remuneration identification or negotiations.

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