Art and Photography

Looking for first camera, too many options

  • Last Updated:
  • Nov 9th, 2017 12:44 pm
Deal Guru
User avatar
Mar 6, 2003
10602 posts
1685 upvotes
Ottawa
craftsman wrote:
Oct 31st, 2017 1:28 pm
Mirrorless has it's pros and cons. One of the big cons is that for most mirrorless platforms, lens and accessory selection is limited to the OEM supplied product. Some will have adapters for other lenses (either by the same manufacturer or another). Another con is the lack of an actual shutter (yes, that allows the camera to be smaller and eliminates some of the shutter lag) as the sensor is completely exposed when you switch out the lens so extra care is required to keep that sensor clean and dust free.
Mirrorless cameras do have a shutter, "shutter shock" is actually a common problem for earlier mirrorless cameras where the shutter opening and shutting would cause the whole picture to be blurred at common everyday shutter speeds (say 1/250)

http://www.discoverdigitalphotography.c ... ter-shock/
Honey, I can't go to bed yet. Somebody is wrong on the Internet!
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Jun 15, 2012
9858 posts
4229 upvotes
Southern Ontario
Budget 1/3 or less for the body. It's good lenses that'll hit the wallet. You could of course gradually acquire them.

imho, the best consumer 4K video camera is an iPhone 8/8P/X mounted on a gimbal, edit right on the phone. If action cam, look for the same, 4K @ 60fps.
If I was purely an enthusiast (and didn't need my 2 workhorse DSLRs) I'd be looking at Olympus MFT, an EM1 Mark II if I had a more open budget.
Deal Fanatic
Aug 29, 2006
6754 posts
975 upvotes
Lens selection and accessory selection is no longer true if you are talking about Sony at least. Sony keeps cracking new e mounts lens at astonishing rate every year, and pretty much all major oem brands has joined the game and started making e mounts options. Also, the ability to use an adapter and use any major brand lens is amazing, with the crazy speed on the lastest model and constant new hardware and software development, the gap between using a native lens vs on an adapter is narrowing too.

So, it is becoming more of a con for dslr now that you more limited to lens of the same mount.

Someone already touched on shutters, them have digital and mechanical.
craftsman wrote:
Oct 31st, 2017 1:28 pm
Mirrorless has it's pros and cons. One of the big cons is that for most mirrorless platforms, lens and accessory selection is limited to the OEM supplied product. Some will have adapters for other lenses (either by the same manufacturer or another). Another con is the lack of an actual shutter (yes, that allows the camera to be smaller and eliminates some of the shutter lag) as the sensor is completely exposed when you switch out the lens so extra care is required to keep that sensor clean and dust free. Some will say that that the self-cleaning sensors work great but that's really for a bit of 'clean' dust that doesn't stick to well to the sensor (ie. a bit of grease or static will cause the dust to stick to that sensor) so more cleaning may be required. The same thing happens to DSLRs but at least the shutter when closed offer some degree of protection.
The Devil made me buy it - RFD. :twisted:
Deal Fanatic
Jan 27, 2006
6481 posts
1679 upvotes
Vancouver, BC
hdom wrote:
Nov 1st, 2017 1:16 am
Lens selection and accessory selection is no longer true if you are talking about Sony at least. Sony keeps cracking new e mounts lens at astonishing rate every year, and pretty much all major oem brands has joined the game and started making e mounts options. Also, the ability to use an adapter and use any major brand lens is amazing, with the crazy speed on the lastest model and constant new hardware and software development, the gap between using a native lens vs on an adapter is narrowing too.

So, it is becoming more of a con for dslr now that you more limited to lens of the same mount.
Almost all of the lenses or accessories are made by the OEMs as you stated. That still limits the price points as well as the selection of lenses available to the average consumer to the OEMs. Yes, you can 'move' between manufacturers using specialized adapters but those adapters (like any adapter/extenders) have their limitations such as physical stability of the mount especially for heavier lenses (ie you are putting an extra 'joint' between the lens and the camera body that could move a bit) causing motion in the lens, light leaks (which have been documented with cheap 3rd party adapters), electronic compatibility (3rd party lenses have issues with DSLR bodies now so I can only see things getting worse when it comes to adapters trying to translate between brand X and brand Y), and the possibility of those adapters cracking on heavier lenses. The large 3rd party lenses manufacturers have yet to shown up to the party for mirrorless lenses in any large meaningful way... sure, they have a few lenses here and there but their mainstay mounts are still Canon and Nikon (which you will need to use an adapter for if you want to use them on mirrorless). A good example would be Tamron lenses (as they don't make any camera bodies so they live and die by what they can support)... B & H Photo list 6 mirrorless lenses and that's really only 4 as 2 of them are for the Canon EF-M mount that can be used for certain Canon DSLRs - all of them wide range zooms (18-200 and 14-150 in two colours). On the other hand, B & H list 107 DSLR lenses in all shapes, speeds, zoom ranges, focal lengths, and mounts.

As for accessories, the same goes. Most of the accessories on the market are from the OEM. There's a small number of accessories from 3rd parties but unless the mirrorless camera has the same interface as DSLR, the selection is slim.
Deal Addict
Feb 21, 2013
3186 posts
637 upvotes
Toronto
djdestroyer wrote:
Oct 30th, 2017 3:44 pm
Thanks for the links. I've covered mostly all of those techniques but it's always nice to see them neatly grouped together. I'm also always checking out youtube videos and other educational sources but trying not to get bogged down with too many rules and tips. Sometimes I think it's better to let the scene come to you. I also don't mind editing whatsoever. I just find so many pictures I see online are over-edited and it ruins the pic IMO so I try to keep it very raw.
I think maybe you're mistaking "unedited" photos as being "RAW", which is actually a large file format that hasn't had much in the way of digital processing applied to it. Many times, if you shoot RAW + Jpeg, you'll find that the RAW file looks pretty bland, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with it, but it might look dark, gray, and uninteresting compared to the Jpeg which the camera has applied some processing to. RAW files are meant to be edited. By "keeping it very raw", you'll be saddled with a dark photo that takes up like 30 MB... probably not something you'll be putting on Instagram.

I'm a Fuji fan, so I'm going to recommend Fuji XT2, especially with a large budget. I'm a big fan of their Classic Chrome jpg process, and Fuji has some of the best looking (IMO) jpgs straight out of camera, that still gives you the as you call "raw" look (which I'll call a "natural" look): ie not overly sharpened, not as punchy as if someone moved the clarity slider all the way in lightroom, not a super HDR+vibrance+luminance grotesquerie of an image.
Last edited by M1GOmigs on Nov 1st, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
XBox Live: M1GO | PSN: CURRENTLY INACTIVE
Deal Fanatic
Aug 29, 2006
6754 posts
975 upvotes
The price and lens selection is a concern but Tamron may not be the best example since Sigma has 29 mirrorless lens on B&H (21 E-Mount) and growing.

Are the adapter issues just concerns or found ?? Can't imagine Metabones making any money then, if they are cracking left and right.

Anyway, lens and accessories options will for sure improve however since both Canon & Nikon are joining the FF Mirrorless game soon and it will just heat up the the mirrorless market more which had a ~60% growth this year alone as is.
craftsman wrote:
Nov 1st, 2017 1:32 pm
...As for accessories, the same goes. Most of the accessories on the market are from the OEM. There's a small number of accessories from 3rd parties but unless the mirrorless camera has the same interface as DSLR, the selection is slim.
The Devil made me buy it - RFD. :twisted:
Deal Fanatic
Jan 27, 2006
6481 posts
1679 upvotes
Vancouver, BC
Okay, let's go with Sigma then... B&H shows 167 DSLR lenses. At the end of the day, the regardless of what brand of lens you pick, there are fewer options out there and we haven't even looked at used/discontinued lenses yet... Will the number of lenses grow for mirrorless? Of course, they will. They might even catch up in a few years. But in the here and now, the number speak for themselves, there are more lens options for DSLRs (especially in the popular mounts) than there are mirrorless.

The issues were found -

here's an article from SLR Lounge talking about the best Sony mirrorless adapters - http://www.subaruxvforum.com/forum/ligh ... mited.html. About half way through the article, the author states -
What this test taught me is that the biggest culprit to light leaks is the locking mechanism when you twist your lens into the adapter (notice how all the light leak comes from the same side on three different adapters). If light leak is a problem for you, the cheapest fix is honestly just putting a piece of tape over it. That’ll save you some buyer’s remorse.
A thread from dpreview - https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3878619
I'm in the process of switching from a Canon 5DMIII to a Sony A7R.

I've got the following lenses: Canon 17mm TSE, 24-70 II, 70-200 f4 non IS. All leak/flare.

I've also bought the Metabones IV T and a Viltrox adapters, both are a P.O.S. in controlling leak/flare (not good old fashioned lens flare), when there's a light source in the same time zone.

The Viltrox doesn't have flocking applied and the amount of flare is worse than the Metabones, which does have flocking applied from the manufacturer.

I will try flocking the Viltrox.

Are there any adapters (that give EXIF data) that don't leak/flare or am I wasting my time with adapters and mirrorless cameras?
Some suggested fixes are duct tape and black paint. So, you decide if the issues are valid.

As for Nikon and Canon joining the mirrorless game, they have been in the game from the beginning! Neither of them have made much in roads into the market place.
Deal Fanatic
Aug 29, 2006
6754 posts
975 upvotes
Well, I come from the side that the Mirrorless could use all those 167 DSLR lens with adapters and there may be some issues with the adapter / long heavy lens but a good portion of them and with a newer adapter (unlike the old version in your links) may not even have any issues.

Yes, Nikon and Canon were sort of in the mirrorless but they were never serious and only Canon offered a serious body with a APS size sensor recently and they never had FF offers. Trust me, I still love to use my DSLR too but when it comes time to upgrade, I seriously would think twice about sticking to SLR. There is no denying that mirrorless is growing and for many good reasons.


craftsman wrote:
Nov 1st, 2017 7:15 pm
...As for Nikon and Canon joining the mirrorless game, they have been in the game from the beginning! Neither of them have made much in roads into the market place.
Last edited by hdom on Nov 1st, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Devil made me buy it - RFD. :twisted:
Deal Guru
User avatar
Mar 6, 2003
10602 posts
1685 upvotes
Ottawa
craftsman wrote:
Nov 1st, 2017 7:15 pm
As for Nikon and Canon joining the mirrorless game, they have been in the game from the beginning! Neither of them have made much in roads into the market place.
did you look at their mirrorless cameras? They OWN the DSLR market and there was never any incentive for them to offer compelling mirrorless cameras that undermine their own market share. In order to make a new system successful they actually had to have made an effort with some native lenses for them besides a few slow zooms

It's pretty much a given that Canon and Nikon will reboot their mirrorless efforts with some serious mirrorless cameras......they can't afford not to.....it's just a matter of when.

Image
source: http://sansmirror.com/newsviews/2017-ne ... onder.html
Honey, I can't go to bed yet. Somebody is wrong on the Internet!
Deal Fanatic
Jan 27, 2006
6481 posts
1679 upvotes
Vancouver, BC
warpdrive wrote:
Nov 1st, 2017 9:12 pm
did you look at their mirrorless cameras? They OWN the DSLR market and there was never any incentive for them to offer compelling mirrorless cameras that undermine their own market share. In order to make a new system successful they actually had to have made an effort with some native lenses for them besides a few slow zooms

It's pretty much a given that Canon and Nikon will reboot their mirrorless efforts with some serious mirrorless cameras......they can't afford not to.....it's just a matter of when.

Image
source: http://sansmirror.com/newsviews/2017-ne ... onder.html
The problem with tracking DSLR numbers to mirrorless numbers is that DSLRs are basically mature - you won't find much of an overall increase in quality over the past few years. A great example of that is Nikon's Full Frame line up since the D600 was introduced back in 2012. According to testing from DXOMARK, the sensor performance has stayed pretty much the same with only marginal increases in performance from 94 (the D600 rating) to 100 (the latest - Nikon's D850) so there is very little reason to upgrade unlike the early years of full frame were each new generation of product got better... much better. Now, with quality in the mid and upper 90's, the difference in quality of the sensor is so small that most people can't tell the difference. BTW. A medium format sensor from Hasselblad scored the highest at 102. So, it's really an replacement market rather than an upgrade market at this time.

Mirrorless is on the opposite side of the spectrum. Image quality is still improving hence vendors are putting in bigger sensors into smaller bodies. As such, a 5 year old mirrorless can't compete in any meaningful way to current mirrorless units in terms of sensor quality. The visible increase in quality is what is driving the mirrorless purchases as owners are upgrading from the previous generation to take advantage of the better quality over the older product.

If you look at the graph, you'll see a heavy decline in DSLRs purchases with a much smaller increase in mirrorless but that increase in no-way compares to the level of decline for DSLRs. That tells me that while some potential DSLR purchasers have jumped to mirrorless, most DSLR owners are just not buying anything new because if they were, you should see a much larger increase in mirrorless sales as the DSLRs sales dropped through 2012 to 2016....

Will mirrorless get better in terms of sales? Of course. But IMHO, once the quality output of the mirrorless product starts to level off just like what happened to DSLRs, sales will also start to level off as the need to upgrade the existing product is replaced with replacing product that breaks.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Mar 6, 2003
10602 posts
1685 upvotes
Ottawa
craftsman wrote:
Nov 2nd, 2017 12:31 am
Will mirrorless get better in terms of sales? Of course. But IMHO, once the quality output of the mirrorless product starts to level off just like what happened to DSLRs, sales will also start to level off as the need to upgrade the existing product is replaced with replacing product that breaks.
The only point I was making is that Canon and Nikon will take mirrorless seriously and soon. The trend is clear, the whole market is shrinking. Sony and others was actually very actively innovating in this area whereas Canon and Nikon were just fighting each other.
Honey, I can't go to bed yet. Somebody is wrong on the Internet!
Newbie
Sep 21, 2017
3 posts
2 upvotes
According to your specifications, Nikon is a perfect brand for you. Nikon D7500 is very compact and lightweight camera. It is a DSLR camera which is very useful to shoot any type of photography. Use at least one time and enjoy it’s latest features.
Deal Fanatic
Aug 29, 2006
6754 posts
975 upvotes
You may be confused with another thread of a similar question... help-me-buy-dslr-2138144/
RvMitra wrote:
Nov 2nd, 2017 8:20 am
According to your specifications, Nikon is a perfect brand for you. Nikon D7500 is very compact and lightweight camera. It is a DSLR camera which is very useful to shoot any type of photography. Use at least one time and enjoy it’s latest features.
The Devil made me buy it - RFD. :twisted:
Deal Addict
User avatar
Oct 22, 2003
2141 posts
59 upvotes
Toronto
With whatever camera body you end up getting, you should get a prime lens like a 50mm.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Jul 10, 2014
1970 posts
435 upvotes
Ottawa, ON
hdom wrote:
Nov 2nd, 2017 11:52 am
You may be confused with another thread of a similar question... help-me-buy-dslr-2138144/
I feel like his suggestion is simple, straight forward, and along the lines of what I was planning to get before this thread. And as much as I appreciate all the advice and feedback, this thread has not helped whatsoever lol I'm more confused as to what to buy now than before. Seems like a debate between DSLR and mirrorless has popped up ITT with no clear winner...?

Top