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Manitoba man jailed after judge says 'justified' self-defence went too far, killing home intruder

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  • Jun 9th, 2019 4:21 pm
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Manitoba man jailed after judge says 'justified' self-defence went too far, killing home intruder

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.5165442


Guy breaks into someone's house. Attempts to stab/cut his head open while guy is sleeping.
Man wakes up. Fights back. Fights for his life. Wins the battle, KILLS the intruder.
Judge says he went to far when he stabbed the guy 13 times.

Yeah no shit. A guy just tried to cut your head open with a knife.. Your adrenaline is through the roof. It's 3am. For all you know it's a zombie freaking apocalypse....

But nope.. self defence went too far. 5 years in jail.

Best part is the CBC actually gave the intruders family the time of day:
"he was a good man"
WTF? A good man? He tried to kill someone and LOST.

What a messed up society. Talk about way to PC.

F-that family... a family that straight up says their kid is a GOOD kid, when he tried to stab someone in the head is messed up. I hope they burn in hell.
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Ya, it looks bad but even the defence lawyer recommended 3 years, so either the accused went too far or his lawyer's incompetent.
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According to the story, there was "bad blood" between the two parties. Self-defense claims tend to be accepted a lot less when this is the case, because it tends to look more like "revenge" instead of "legitimate self defense where someone unfortunately died".
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bezne1 wrote:
Jun 7th, 2019 11:25 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.5165442


Guy breaks into someone's house. Attempts to stab/cut his head open while guy is sleeping.
Man wakes up. Fights back. Fights for his life. Wins the battle, KILLS the intruder.
Judge says he went to far when he stabbed the guy 13 times.

Yeah no shit. A guy just tried to cut your head open with a knife.. Your adrenaline is through the roof. It's 3am. For all you know it's a zombie freaking apocalypse....

But nope.. self defence went too far. 5 years in jail.

Best part is the CBC actually gave the intruders family the time of day:
"he was a good man"
WTF? A good man? He tried to kill someone and LOST.

What a messed up society. Talk about way to PC.

F-that family... a family that straight up says their kid is a GOOD kid, when he tried to stab someone in the head is messed up. I hope they burn in hell.
I wouldn't be surprised if the accussed (Pratt) is indigenous and "victim" (Bunn) is a white male...there's your explanation but if it was the other way around white male kills indigenous - no jail time.
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tranquility922 wrote:
Jun 7th, 2019 11:58 pm
Ya, it looks bad but even the defence lawyer recommended 3 years, so either the accused went too far or his lawyer's incompetent.
That was at sentencing though, which at that point, the defence lawyer had already lost and was just trying to minimize the damage as much as he could.

Judges are a big reason why our just system is failing. They are very smart individuals, but they're completely out of touch. They aren't out on the streets dealing with crime. They're not in the jails seeing how these guys act and how dangerous they are.

All I keep hearing is how segregation is inhumane, but segregation is the only reason some of these guys don't kill each other and/or corrections officers. Not everyone can be rehabilitated. Some just need to be locked up so they can't hurt anyone else. Judges can't grasp that concept though. They think everyone can be fixed and that jail is far too hard on these guys.

The Justice system is completely broken in this country and judges are mostly to blame.
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Feb 24, 2018
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It's not just the judges, the entire criminal justice system works against self defenders.

I was told by a lawyer friend that in a defensive fight for your life (we had a few drinks), expect to serve some time in Canada regardless of the justification. Expect that sentence to increase if you defended yourself against a protected minority.

The last refuge of sane criminal justice seems to be the United States, but they have their problems and inconsistencies.

The concepts of individual autonomy and responsiblity simple aren't given credence in this country.
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hierophant wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 12:44 am
I wouldn't be surprised if the accussed (Pratt) is indigenous and "victim" (Bunn) is a white male...there's your explanation but if it was the other way around white male kills indigenous - no jail time.
Get your racist views out of here
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Note to myself:

If I'm ever woken by a stab to the head by an intruder in my home and manage to get hold of his knife, kill him with the first stab ... or not at all.
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Shaner wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 9:12 am
That was at sentencing though, which at that point, the defence lawyer had already lost and was just trying to minimize the damage as much as he could.

Judges are a big reason why our just system is failing. They are very smart individuals, but they're completely out of touch. They aren't out on the streets dealing with crime. They're not in the jails seeing how these guys act and how dangerous they are.

All I keep hearing is how segregation is inhumane, but segregation is the only reason some of these guys don't kill each other and/or corrections officers. Not everyone can be rehabilitated. Some just need to be locked up so they can't hurt anyone else. Judges can't grasp that concept though. They think everyone can be fixed and that jail is far too hard on these guys.

The Justice system is completely broken in this country and judges are mostly to blame.
TX, I read that wrong then.

Didn't the jury make the verdict? If one was in a similar situation, I would personally take my chances w a judge vs 12 possibly unreliable ppl. In any event, I assume you're talking about the person killed, he had a prior or something?
The richest 1% of this country owns half our country’s wealth, 5 trillion dollars, one-third of that comes from hard work, two-thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons, and what I do.. <find the rest>
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to be fair, I don't know the history of these two guys. apparently they had "bad blood" whatever that means. So, maybe the guy breaking into the other guys house was justified and wanted to lay down a beating? I don't know. Even if they had bad blood, do it in day light, or on the street... not when the guy is sleeping, in his house. Any bad blood that they had, doesn't even matter at this point. That got washed away when the guy shows up in the middle of the night in your house, with a knife!!!

The other thing that boggles my mind is that they say they had bad blood - BUT - why does that even matter? How can you tell in the middle of the night? You're half awake, fighting for your life. And is 13 stabbings really a lot? People don't die on the first stab unless you hit them right in the heart, or a major artery.... So if you're trying to subdue someone that just tried to kill you, how many stabs is really enough?

Lets say you are now in grappling match with the guy, over the knife... You manage to get a hold of it.. You stab the guy once.. he doesn't stop coming at you, or fighting you, or letting go... you stab again... he doesn't stop... you stab again.. he doesn't stop. now you know this guy WONT STOP until you're dead!!! so you keep stabbing, and he WONT GO DOWN OR LEAVE YOU ALONE!!!

Also, it's a criminal... Lets be real here, if you stab a criminal with his knife, is he going to SURRENDER to you and run away, or maybe allow you to citizen arrest him???? OR are you supposed to give him the knife back after the first stab??? pretty sure a real criminal will be pretty pissed at you fighting back and will try to kill you..

So how many stabs is justified? That's how ridiculous this whole thing is. You literally can't even protect yourself! I almost just want to become a criminal in my next life just to mess with the legal system... so dumb.
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Shaner wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 9:12 am
That was at sentencing though, which at that point, the defence lawyer had already lost and was just trying to minimize the damage as much as he could.

Judges are a big reason why our just system is failing. They are very smart individuals, but they're completely out of touch. They aren't out on the streets dealing with crime. They're not in the jails seeing how these guys act and how dangerous they are.

All I keep hearing is how segregation is inhumane, but segregation is the only reason some of these guys don't kill each other and/or corrections officers. Not everyone can be rehabilitated. Some just need to be locked up so they can't hurt anyone else. Judges can't grasp that concept though. They think everyone can be fixed and that jail is far too hard on these guys.

The Justice system is completely broken in this country and judges are mostly to blame.
Completely agree, this guy should had not received ANY jail time. In Florida guys have walked away from jail killing an intruder that was just rummaging through their kitchen, never mind attacking them in bed.All these politicians and judges are out of touch with these criminal animals, they think they are cartoon characters because they haven't been touched by their crimes. This case shows you what you must do when you kill an intruder, put him in the back of your car and dump him in a river.
Messerschmitt wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 9:27 am
Get your racist views out of here
What's so racist about bringing up a possible hypothesis? You can't muzzle the truth.
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From what I gathered from the CBC article, both men were living on the reserve, which can be construed to suggest that they're both Aboriginal. Both were drinking before the attack. It appears the trial was by jury. I don't know how good the chances are for an appeal. Juries don't have to explain their decisions & appellate courts loathe to overturn jury decisions, unless there's something clearly wrong (i.e. jury didn't hear all evidence).

Sadly, juries tend to decide based on how the accused comes across, in court. The article didn't say if the accused testified in his own defence. If he didn't, that will be a factor. If he did, and came across as not a nice person, that's another factor.

For those of you concerned about the self-defence - going to jail argument, here's a possible rule of thumb. If you are defending yourself and have successfully taken down the person assaulting you, stop. Call 911 and ask for police. If you decide to continue inflicting blows, after the attacker has been subdued, then you will likely be in trouble.

Consider for ex., if the person defending himself is a martial arts instructor and the assailant has no fighting experience. If you knock him out and call police right away, you will likely not get into any trouble. If you break his neck, killing him, you will likely be charged for murder. Courts want to balance a person's right to defend themselves, against giving people a free pass to murder someone else, if they enter their property, unlawfully. Just my two cents.
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Micelli_Illuminatti wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 1:11 pm
From what I gathered from the CBC article, both men were living on the reserve, which can be construed to suggest that they're both Aboriginal. Both were drinking before the attack. It appears the trial was by jury. I don't know how good the chances are for an appeal. Juries don't have to explain their decisions & appellate courts loathe to overturn jury decisions, unless there's something clearly wrong (i.e. jury didn't hear all evidence).

Sadly, juries tend to decide based on how the accused comes across, in court. The article didn't say if the accused testified in his own defence. If he didn't, that will be a factor. If he did, and came across as not a nice person, that's another factor.

For those of you concerned about the self-defence - going to jail argument, here's a possible rule of thumb. If you are defending yourself and have successfully taken down the person assaulting you, stop. Call 911 and ask for police. If you decide to continue inflicting blows, after the attacker has been subdued, then you will likely be in trouble.

Consider for ex., if the person defending himself is a martial arts instructor and the assailant has no fighting experience. If you knock him out and call police right away, you will likely not get into any trouble. If you break his neck, killing him, you will likely be charged for murder. Courts want to balance a person's right to defend themselves, against giving people a free pass to murder someone else, if they enter their property, unlawfully. Just my two cents.
Play stupid games, get stupid prizes.
You have no rights once you come into my home trying to killing me. I can't even "run away" as the whole stupid police force suggests you should do.

As for "subdue" have you ever tried to subdue a person before, specially a wild animal person that wants blood? You might not have a choice BUT to kill the person - intentionally or unintentionally.

I really don't think some of you understand how strong another human being is, or how resilient they might be to your first few blows.

The other that people seem to forget, is once you have to get tough and REALLY fight for your life, you unleash your rage. You might physically NOT BE ABLE TO STOP. It's easy to sit here on keyboards and say "the guys had enough, now you stop"... except if youre not trained, you go crazy, you lose your shit defending yourself, you don't even know what youre doing anymore.
Last edited by bezne1 on Jun 8th, 2019 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DiceMan wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 10:29 am
Note to myself:

If I'm ever woken by a stab to the head by an intruder in my home and manage to get hold of his knife, kill him with the first stab ... or not at all.
Yeah, have to wonder where the sweet spot is. Thirteen is obviously too high. Maybe five or six? Three? The judiciary should really provide some guidelines...:rolleyes:
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Conquistador wrote:
Jun 8th, 2019 2:58 pm
Yeah, have to wonder where the sweet spot is. Thirteen is obviously too high. Maybe five or six? Three? The judiciary should really provide some guidelines...:rolleyes:
The issue is this:
They say 13 stabs.. Ok, yeah that seems excessive... But were 13 done during the fight? Or were 2 done during the fight and 10 done when the guy was already on the ground? That's a big difference.

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