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[2024 CODE UPDATE] Ask me anything about home electrical requirements, electrical code, wiring, devices

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Deal Fanatic
Aug 25, 2005
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i want to turn one of my light switches into a 3 way light switch... how bad of an idea is it to just run 2 14/2 wires instead of using a single 14/3 (since I don't have any on hand)
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Jul 23, 2004
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Montreal
BenK wrote: i want to turn one of my light switches into a 3 way light switch... how bad of an idea is it to just run 2 14/2 wires instead of using a single 14/3 (since I don't have any on hand)
I'd make a quick run to the store and buy the proper wire...
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Jun 21, 2003
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Stoney Creek, ON
AMD wrote: I'd make a quick run to the store and buy the proper wire...
As would I.
Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
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Winnipeg
BenK wrote: i want to turn one of my light switches into a 3 way light switch... how bad of an idea is it to just run 2 14/2 wires instead of using a single 14/3 (since I don't have any on hand)
use the correct wire
Deal Addict
Dec 25, 2012
1457 posts
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Toronto
New at anything electrical

Picked up a tp link wifi switch....the picture attached...the bunch of white wires with the blue barrette is the bunch of neutrals correct (3 gang box)

Ground is the one with the screw in the side and

Bottom would correspond to the black in the tp link switch and top wire would correspond to white on the tp link switch?

Thanks!
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JS
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Jun 21, 2003
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James Stonehenge wrote: Bottom would correspond to the black in the tp link switch and top wire would correspond to white on the tp link switch?
Black to white connection = dead short and probably a friend switch.

The white wire of the TP link switch goes to the bundle of white wires in the box.

The ground wire of the TP link switch goes to the ground screws at the back of the box, where you should see bare copper ground wires connected. Your original switch does not have a ground wire connected.

On your old switch the "top" relative to your photo has 1 black wire connected. We will call that "load". The "bottom" of your switch has 2 black wires (1 on side screw, 1 in the back) and this we will call "live".

Take 1 black wire from your TP link switch and connect it to the "load" from your old switch. (This marrett will have 2 wires under it)

Take the remaining black wire of your TP link switch and connect it to the "live" wires. (This marrett will have 3 wires under it)

I hope you got this turned off before you started playing with it! Your message definitely makes it clear you aren't lying in your first statement!
Newbie
Apr 4, 2010
4 posts
1 upvote
divx wrote: What is this stacker? Some kind of a flexible conduit wrapping? There is limitations to conductors in a conduit, I never seen any limitations for nmd90 cable in a conduit though.
The Gardner Bender multi cable staple:
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Your text to link here...
Sr. Member
Mar 1, 2017
611 posts
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I have a fridgedaire coil stove with broken infinite switches - and got some replacement switches (also for the big burner) from a different model (flat range) but same brand. They are the same shape and size but have a different part number.

Is it okay to use them in place?
Is there any danger?

Thanks!
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Oct 29, 2006
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I have a free 30A breaker in my panel wired to the outside using 10/2 wire. What would I need in terms of load centre / breakers to turn this single phase 30A circuit in to a 20A circuit to power 20A GFCI receptacles?
Deal Fanatic
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Jan 6, 2002
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Toronto
divx wrote: use the correct wire
Since all switches need a neutral now, are we going to start seeing 14/4 more generally available to consumers (big box store shoppers?) Because if not, for many 3-way setups, two 14/2 is what's going to get used regardless.. (Neutral, line/load, and two travellers.)?
Si Tacuisses, Philosophus Mansisses
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Jun 21, 2003
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Stoney Creek, ON
hoob wrote: Since all switches need a neutral now, are we going to start seeing 14/4 more generally available to consumers (big box store shoppers?) Because if not, for many 3-way setups, two 14/2 is what's going to get used regardless.. (Neutral, line/load, and two travellers.)?
I would doubt that. There’s no reason to need that. It’s very easy to avoid that by having 14/2 feed to the first switch. 14/3 between switches. And a 14/2 from the last switch to the load.

I’ve personally been providing neutral to every switch for 7+ years and never used a single run of 14/4 to accomplish that.
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Jan 6, 2002
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ChicoQuente wrote: I would doubt that. There’s no reason to need that. It’s very easy to avoid that by having 14/2 feed to the first switch. 14/3 between switches. And a 14/2 from the last switch to the load.

I’ve personally been providing neutral to every switch for 7+ years and never used a single run of 14/4 to accomplish that.
For new work yeah, but for many retrofits needing to extend a 2-way to a 3-way, or a 3-way to a 4-way, you'll need a run of 4 wires.
Si Tacuisses, Philosophus Mansisses
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Jun 21, 2003
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hoob wrote: For new work yeah, but for many retrofits needing to extend a 2-way to a 3-way, or a 3-way to a 4-way, you'll need a run of 4 wires.
Those are not overly common scenarios in my opinion and experience. Sure it happens but not nearly often enough that stores need to adjust their stock for increased demand.

In the event you’re running 2x 14/2 I’m not certain that will pass code anyways in which case why bother even trying to include a neutral if you’re not meeting code to begin with?
Deal Addict
Apr 26, 2003
2761 posts
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GTA
I'm taking over an older house (probably 60 years old) and noticed that the lights dim when the air conditioner kicks in. Went to look at the electrical panel and saw this. Ugh.

MVIMG_20200718_123418.jpg

What kind of wiring is this? Aluminum? Will this need to be changed or will it suffice? We're planning on renovating the place and if this is part of the job, what kind of rough costs would it be to rewire the entire house?
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Jan 6, 2002
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ChicoQuente wrote: Those are not overly common scenarios in my opinion and experience. Sure it happens but not nearly often enough that stores need to adjust their stock for increased demand.

In the event you’re running 2x 14/2 I’m not certain that will pass code anyways in which case why bother even trying to include a neutral if you’re not meeting code to begin with?
Running a neutral would be for more practical considerations, like to allow for smart switches (and maybe further extension of the circuit), as opposed to merely for code compliance of the switch boxes.
Si Tacuisses, Philosophus Mansisses
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Jun 21, 2003
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hoob wrote: Running a neutral would be for more practical considerations, like to allow for smart switches (and maybe further extension of the circuit), as opposed to merely for code compliance of the switch boxes.
I don’t disagree there are situations where maybe it is needed but again these are quite rare. Far too rare for the big box stores to be concerned about stocking it. For the very few that need it I think Home Depot/Lowe’s/etc are comfortable losing those customers to an electrical distributor. The reality is that it just doesn’t get used or done frequently at all. I’ve done a lot of new construction and reno in the commercial/residential sector and never used 14/4 NMD90 before.

The code rule has been in effect for over 2 years now so if they haven’t started stocking it as a result I don’t think they will be.
Newbie
Jul 20, 2020
2 posts
I have some questions about LED lighting.

1) There are lots of unapproved luminaires for sale on Amazon etc that connect to <= 100 W class 2 power supplies. Am I allowed to connect them to a suitable cULus/ETL/CSA/cRUus class 2 power supply <= 100 W that is connected to a junction box and installed by a licensed electrician?
2) If I connect a class 2 power supply to a CSA approved Nema 5-15R connector and plug it into a receptacle, then plug the DC load side into an unapproved luminaire, is this allowed?
3) Same as question 2, but with a CSA approved luminaire.
4) Same as question 2, but with DC load from class 2 power supply going to non-luminaire homemade device like an arduino controlling a servo, etc.
5) Are home owner/occupant installed luminaires e.g. TV or monitor backlights connected to an approved class 2 power supply that connects to the wall via a Nema 5-15R connector allowed by the code?
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Jun 21, 2003
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SandyPorcupine wrote: I have some questions about LED lighting.

1) There are lots of unapproved luminaires for sale on Amazon etc that connect to <= 100 W class 2 power supplies. Am I allowed to connect them to a suitable cULus/ETL/CSA/cRUus class 2 power supply <= 100 W that is connected to a junction box and installed by a licensed electrician?
2) If I connect a class 2 power supply to a CSA approved Nema 5-15R connector and plug it into a receptacle, then plug the DC load side into an unapproved luminaire, is this allowed?
3) Same as question 2, but with a CSA approved luminaire.
4) Same as question 2, but with DC load from class 2 power supply going to non-luminaire homemade device like an arduino controlling a servo, etc.
5) Are home owner/occupant installed luminaires e.g. TV or monitor backlights connected to an approved class 2 power supply that connects to the wall via a Nema 5-15R connector allowed by the code?
1. Do you mean a hard wired power supply to a junction box or are you talking about a plug-in power supply on a receptacle?

2-5. The CEC doesn’t really speak to what you plug in to a receptacle as it is essentially just “temporary” equipment/lights/appliances etc. It is at your discretion if you want to use things that may or not be safe due to lack of certification. Personally I’d spend a little more and get something of quality build.
Newbie
Jul 20, 2020
2 posts
Thanks for your reply. In regards to 1, I meant something like plugging an outdoor driver into a junction box with the AC current connectors going into the junction box. An example of such a driver would be this one:

https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/MEA ... qW0A%3D%3D

You would run the driver cable to the mounted junction box and wire nut the hot/neutral/ground leads to the AC circuit inside there, mount the LED driver to a stud and then run the DC current wire through a hole in the wall like you would a hanging lamp. I wanted to do under-cabinet lighting with some strips I got off Amazon that are IP66 and it seemed like a reasonable and safe way to connect a driver, but I have no idea if it's up to code and if I installed in and pulled a permit with inspection, whether or not the inspector would laugh at me.

edit: An example of such an installation is shown in a photo here https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/fi ... in_led.pdf
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Jun 21, 2003
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SandyPorcupine wrote: Thanks for your reply. In regards to 1, I meant something like plugging an outdoor driver into a junction box with the AC current connectors going into the junction box. An example of such a driver would be this one:

https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/MEA ... qW0A%3D%3D

You would run the driver cable to the mounted junction box and wire nut the hot/neutral/ground leads to the AC circuit inside there, mount the LED driver to a stud and then run the DC current wire through a hole in the wall like you would a hanging lamp. I wanted to do under-cabinet lighting with some strips I got off Amazon that are IP66 and it seemed like a reasonable and safe way to connect a driver, but I have no idea if it's up to code and if I installed in and pulled a permit with inspection, whether or not the inspector would laugh at me.

edit: An example of such an installation is shown in a photo here https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/fi ... in_led.pdf
You can’t hide a junction box or driver inside the wall. You’d need to put an access hatch. For under cabinet lighting the better option is to bring your 120V to the underside of the cabinet and just install your driver/box on the underside of the cabinet just like your lights. This meets code as your box and driver as still accessible and they will still be hidden out of sight.

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