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[Merged] Windows/Doors

Member
May 11, 2011
465 posts
120 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

See my comments below. You have clearly done some good homework already.
olabreche wrote: Hello window experts,
I am looking into replacing all of the windows on our detached cottage. We live right under the main flight path to Montreal Trudeau airport. We want to increase both thermal insulation and soundproofing. So far we are considering fiberglass and aluminum frames due to greater structural stability, durability and soundproofing capacity. We want to go triple glazing to get the biggest thermal insulation and comfort but are concerned that the soundproofing offered by triple glazing may not be much better than our current double glazed units. After much reading on this subjet is looks like double glazing with large airspace and different glass thickness or laminated glass works better. However, we would like to stick to triple glazing for the moment. My questions are:

1. Would a triple glazed unit with a decent overall sealed unit thickness (like 1''1/2) provide more soundproofing than typical double glazed unit? Will I notice a difference in practice?

Yes.... and no. It will make a significant difference but as you'll have no way to compare the result to an alternative solution, you may not be able to "notice" the difference to be completely sure.

2. Would it make sense to consider different thickness in one of the triple glazing panes? Installer is suggesting to use glass thickness of 3 mm, 4 mm and 3 mm respectively to block different frequencies. Again, will it make a difference in practice vs the regular triple glazing with equal thickness?

Absolutely correct - Good on your installation company for knowing this.

3. Aluminum or fiberglass? Aluminum windows I am considering have thermal breaks and great performances and would be cheaper than equivalent fiberglass windows. Any soundproofing difference between the two types? What about durability?

The glass is 85% of the window. The fibreglass is probably better, but the key is the glass, not the framing material. Also, a proper installation is critical. keep in mind that other factors of the home will effect the result.

Thank you for your help!
Newbie
Mar 20, 2017
15 posts
3 upvotes
Montreal
Jerico wrote: Triple glass offers better noise reduction. Laminated double glass will outperform triple normal glass for noise reduction

2) I haven't heard this before. 3mm seems thin to me

3) Fibreglass? Did you mean Vinyl?
If 3 mm seems thin to you, what would be the typical thickness of triple glazing then?
Newbie
Mar 20, 2017
15 posts
3 upvotes
Montreal
anotherwindowpro wrote: Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

See my comments below. You have clearly done some good homework already.
Thanks anotherwindowpro. Windows get more confusing the more you know about them, but I have some contacts in the industry to help me around and I think I found a great installer. He's the only one so far who seems to know anything about window performances.

To clarify my post:

1. By noticing the difference, I meant with regards to my current double-glazed units which are low end vinyl windows installed in 1991. I am not expecting the house to be totally soundproof but would like to notice some improvement. I am aware of the limitations of triple glazing in this regard.

2. Is 3mm - 4mm - 3mm the only achievable combination of different thicknesses for triple glazing? I read that one should maximize the thickness difference between the panes to maximize sound reduction, and that more thickness is better. Apparently the optimal ratio is 2:1, but I also read that a difference of more than 1 mm is difficult to achieve. Would it be better to go for, say, 5 mm - 6 mm - 5 mm? That starts to be some real heavy stuff... Or 4 mm - 5 mm - 6 mm? I am not sure what is possible or not.

3. It is true that the glass is most of the window, but sound will take advantage of any weakness. I read somewhere that a 1 sq in hole in the wall lets as much sound go through as 100 sq ft of wall... I am also looking at isolating the ceiling with rockwool since the roof is the surface most directly facing the airplanes. I am aware of the limitations of the rest of the house with regards to soundproofing and am not expecting incredible results. Just some noticeable difference.
Deal Addict
Sep 28, 2004
1201 posts
311 upvotes
Jerico wrote:
Go with a Sunview or Novatech. Most companies buy theirs from one of these two brands and re-brand them. In both cases you should look at their mid-range stuff minimum. Nothing off the shelf from a box store.
Thanks for the reply. That is really good to know about the re-branding because I'm sure that someone like Strassburger would mark a things up a lot. I will look into them both.
Member
May 11, 2011
465 posts
120 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

If you think 3mm is thin, don't buy a window in the USA where the standard is 2mm! In fact, triple with 3mm is so heavy that manufacturers will downsize their size limits because of weight issues. 3 - 4 - 3 is about as much glass as anymanufacture is likely to offer in a residential quality window.
olabreche wrote: If 3 mm seems thin to you, what would be the typical thickness of triple glazing then?
Member
May 11, 2011
465 posts
120 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

1. You should notice a difference.

2. Weight is critical and residential windows are not designed for a 5-6-5 thickness. A manufacturer who made this better have some heavy duty hardware and reinforcement.

3. LOL - You should notice a difference!
olabreche wrote: Thanks anotherwindowpro. Windows get more confusing the more you know about them, but I have some contacts in the industry to help me around and I think I found a great installer. He's the only one so far who seems to know anything about window performances.

To clarify my post:

1. By noticing the difference, I meant with regards to my current double-glazed units which are low end vinyl windows installed in 1991. I am not expecting the house to be totally soundproof but would like to notice some improvement. I am aware of the limitations of triple glazing in this regard.

2. Is 3mm - 4mm - 3mm the only achievable combination of different thicknesses for triple glazing? I read that one should maximize the thickness difference between the panes to maximize sound reduction, and that more thickness is better. Apparently the optimal ratio is 2:1, but I also read that a difference of more than 1 mm is difficult to achieve. Would it be better to go for, say, 5 mm - 6 mm - 5 mm? That starts to be some real heavy stuff... Or 4 mm - 5 mm - 6 mm? I am not sure what is possible or not.

3. It is true that the glass is most of the window, but sound will take advantage of any weakness. I read somewhere that a 1 sq in hole in the wall lets as much sound go through as 100 sq ft of wall... I am also looking at isolating the ceiling with rockwool since the roof is the surface most directly facing the airplanes. I am aware of the limitations of the rest of the house with regards to soundproofing and am not expecting incredible results. Just some noticeable difference.
Newbie
Mar 20, 2017
15 posts
3 upvotes
Montreal
The aluminum window manufacturer I am looking into offers double-pane 5mm - 6mm to clients desiring sound reduction. This would suggest that their windows can support up to 11mm total glass thickness. Not sure if things can quite simply be calculated this way but the same overall thickness in triple could be achived with e.g. 3 mm - 5 mm - 3 mm. I'll inquire with them to see what the limit is in triple glazing... So far this sounds like the most sensible option to maximize both thermal and sound insulation without going broke.
anotherwindowpro wrote: Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

1. You should notice a difference.

2. Weight is critical and residential windows are not designed for a 5-6-5 thickness. A manufacturer who made this better have some heavy duty hardware and reinforcement.

3. LOL - You should notice a difference!
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12695 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
olabreche wrote: The aluminum window manufacturer I am looking into offers double-pane 5mm - 6mm to clients desiring sound reduction. This would suggest that their windows can support up to 11mm total glass thickness. Not sure if things can quite simply be calculated this way but the same overall thickness in triple could be achived with e.g. 3 mm - 5 mm - 3 mm. I'll inquire with them to see what the limit is in triple glazing... So far this sounds like the most sensible option to maximize both thermal and sound insulation without going broke.
Aluminum windows feel so condo/industrial. Could you get them white?
Member
Dec 21, 2011
321 posts
259 upvotes
ETOBICOKE
Hello Window Guy,
I am looking at casement window replacements with also a 12ft sliding door.
I have had a contractors recommending different windows only after to follow-up with reviews online that completley destroy the brand its-self with dissatisfied customers.
The last time I did this I ended up with low cost Vinyl casements that were very cold on my previous house.
I am trying to match a lower profile window that is currently on the house made by Pella (Aluminum clad low profile)
I do not want to go to Pella as the cost is outrageous!

Currently my choices are :
1) Inline Fiberglass ( they seem to have good ratings and reviews on-line)
2) Vinyl Bilt
3) Osteco

I am looking for Casement windows that performs well in the GTA Ontario winter climate that are built well with value.
SO far it looks like I am leaning to Inline for casements and maybe a slider ?
Osteco seems to have a nice patio door.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thank you
Newbie
Mar 20, 2017
15 posts
3 upvotes
Montreal
That's fine with me. I don't mind the plain look, but love the durability. White is possible, of course - aluminum is paintable in any color.
Jerico wrote: Aluminum windows feel so condo/industrial. Could you get them white?
Deal Addict
Sep 28, 2004
1201 posts
311 upvotes
I'm trying to make sure I understand the window/door manufacturing process. So PH-Tech or Rehau (or whomever) extrude the vinyl and have window and door designs but don't actually manufacture any windows or doors. The supply the PVC profiles to other companies who make the windows/doors based on the vinyl extruder's designs. So, what is the difference between manufacturers? The way they assemble things? Their choices in things like spacers, glass, foam/no foam, etc.?
Member
May 11, 2011
465 posts
120 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

There are a range of companies in fabrication/manufacturing. Some assemble their own sealed units. Some don't. Some extrude their own profiles. Some don't and buy systems. Some do their own painting, bend their own shapes etc etc etc.

There are a variety of options available at each stage and fabricator/manufacturers choose what they prefer to use for a variety of reasons. Sometimes for the best performance. Sometimes for sales advantage. Sometimes for ease of maneuverability.

No matter what, the sales person you talk to will tell you his is the absolute best, so there is no need to talk to anyone else!

Lots of fun for you, the consumer.

samj1 wrote: I'm trying to make sure I understand the window/door manufacturing process. So PH-Tech or Rehau (or whomever) extrude the vinyl and have window and door designs but don't actually manufacture any windows or doors. The supply the PVC profiles to other companies who make the windows/doors based on the vinyl extruder's designs. So, what is the difference between manufacturers? The way they assemble things? Their choices in things like spacers, glass, foam/no foam, etc.?
Deal Addict
Sep 28, 2004
1201 posts
311 upvotes
anotherwindowpro wrote: Usual Disclaimer - I'm Phil Lewin, VP of technical marketing of Vinyl Window Designs Ltd. and a member of numerous NGO and other industry advisory bodies

There are a range of companies in fabrication/manufacturing. Some assemble their own sealed units. Some don't. Some extrude their own profiles. Some don't and buy systems. Some do their own painting, bend their own shapes etc etc etc.

There are a variety of options available at each stage and fabricator/manufacturers choose what they prefer to use for a variety of reasons. Sometimes for the best performance. Sometimes for sales advantage. Sometimes for ease of maneuverability.

No matter what, the sales person you talk to will tell you his is the absolute best, so there is no need to talk to anyone else!

Lots of fun for you, the consumer.
Thanks for the reply, Phil. Ok, so there are a lot of steps where companies can vary their decisions and process. It does indeed seem like everyone and their grandmother sells windows and doors, and like you said they are all the best. I'm sure like most consumer products we can get to a point of analysis where the differences are likely not going to be noticeable for the average person (an RFDer is not an average person) but the choices are overwhelming.

Anyway, I'm back to research patio doors now after doing windows two years ago so you can imagine my excitement.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12695 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
samj1 wrote: Thanks for the reply, Phil. Ok, so there are a lot of steps where companies can vary their decisions and process. It does indeed seem like everyone and their grandmother sells windows and doors, and like you said they are all the best. I'm sure like most consumer products we can get to a point of analysis where the differences are likely not going to be noticeable for the average person (an RFDer is not an average person) but the choices are overwhelming.

Anyway, I'm back to research patio doors now after doing windows two years ago so you can imagine my excitement.
It's the same as anything really... cars, power tools etc. I remember working for Ryobi near 20 years ago. We had Jacobs chucks, a planetary gear system from someone else, and Panasonic batteries. Dewalt had the exact same stuff with a cheaper gearbox from the same place and a lower capacity Panasonic battery for 20% more than our pro stuff. Spec wise ours was better but Dewalt was yellow.

Vinyl thickness, profiles, mulling strips, spacers, glass thickness, coatings, hardware, gas mixtures inside... its friggin endless.
Deal Addict
Mar 10, 2011
2583 posts
798 upvotes
Toronto
I'm shopping around for replacement windows and have a question for the experts. What do you think of Vinyl-Pro windows? How is the quality? Any feedback would be helpful.
Deal Addict
Sep 28, 2004
1201 posts
311 upvotes
Stassburger makes very good ones and would certainly have a dealer locally. They have a good warranty but I haven't had to use it so I don't know how responsove they are. I would hope my dealer could help with the process should I need. They will probably exceed be the most expensive.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12695 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
samj1 wrote: Stassburger makes very good ones and would certainly have a dealer locally. They have a good warranty but I haven't had to use it so I don't know how responsove they are. I would hope my dealer could help with the process should I need. They will probably exceed be the most expensive.
No one beats Centennial for exceptionally high cost. Not even Pella.
Deal Addict
Mar 10, 2011
2583 posts
798 upvotes
Toronto
What about the quality of Clera's windows? Has anyone worked with them or purchased from them? I'm not looking for opinions on the Energy Star ratings, but basically the quality of the product that they manufacture and install.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12695 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
Biff88 wrote: What about the quality of Clera's windows? Has anyone worked with them or purchased from them? I'm not looking for opinions on the Energy Star ratings, but basically the quality of the product that they manufacture and install.
Not good. Read this forum.

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