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[Merged] Windows/Doors

Jr. Member
Nov 2, 2018
191 posts
79 upvotes
Jerico wrote: Can you show a side by side comparison of how fibreglass lasts longer than vinyl? I assume it’s just “wait and see” for the current generation of fibreglass just like it is for vinyl.
Ughh here we go again....

I'm surprised to get this question from you, given your vast knowledge of the window industry as a whole.

I'm on mobile so this reply will be limited, but look up the study by The Georgia Institute of technology " Life Cycle Assesment case study of north american residential windows"

A more recent study from the Freedonia Group (2019) which states that Fiberglass windows have the longest expected lifespan

Or, get your hands on the Government released "The Consumer's guide to buying Energy Efficient Windows and Doors" by Natural Resources of Canada (Im sure ya'll have these in your showrooms)


It's really not rocket science. Fiberglass expands and contracts (coeficient of expansion) 8 TIMES less than vinyl. It is also 8 TIMES stronger than vinyl. These all lead to a window that lasts approx 40% longer over its liefspan. Less sagging. Less warping. Less movement in the frames period.

(This is just scratching the surface. And we're not even talking about the Aesthetic benefits)

I do this every day, just like you Jerico, and I cannot tell you how many vinyl windows I replace that are under 12 years old. Wether the casement has sagged under its own weight, or whether a slider no longer slides, or a double hung leaking air like a sieve because the frame has warped. I don't need to read a study. I see it everyday. And honestly, I feel bad for these homeowners

Should the price be double, I would be the FIRST person to buy vinyl windows for my house. But given a reasonable quote, there's no doubt Fiberglass offers a vastly superior window/door framing material. Especially as window sizes get larger and larger

Can't wait to see what happens to the Vinyl window industry when everything goes Triple Glazed in a year or two.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
WindowGuyLarry wrote: I do this every day, just like you Jerico, and I cannot tell you how many vinyl windows I replace that are under 12 years old.
Every window I see is shot. People usually don’t call me to replace windows that aren’t shot, so it doesn’t make any sense to compare a new renovation quality window to a POS builder window based on all the shot windows you see. It’s your job to see windows that are toast.

Builders don’t use Fibreglass (except for pour in place) so you don’t see bad fiberglass windows. You are comparing a Chevette to a Tesla instead of a brand new Mercedes. You don’t know they will last longer until they sit in a house and stand the test of time. They could be aluminum wiring, or they could be pex, we don’t know yet.

Does it make sense? Mostly... But I’ve seen wood canoes outlast fiberglass too....
Jr. Member
Nov 2, 2018
191 posts
79 upvotes
Jerico wrote: Every window I see is shot. People usually don’t call me to replace windows that aren’t shot, so it doesn’t make any sense to compare a new renovation quality window to a POS builder window based on all the shot windows you see. It’s your job to see windows that are toast.

Builders don’t use Fibreglass (except for pour in place) so you don’t see bad fiberglass windows. You are comparing a Chevette to a Tesla instead of a brand new Mercedes. You don’t know they will last longer until they sit in a house and stand the test of time. They could be aluminum wiring, or they could be pex, we don’t know yet.

Does it make sense? Mostly... But I’ve seen wood canoes outlast fiberglass too....
Of course I only see windows that are shot, but shot at 10 years old???

And why do you think pour-in-place are often Fiberglass as you said?......because they're significantly more Structural.

I just find vinyl windows nowadays to be such a crap shoot. As evidenced by the 568 pages in this thread. Are some good? Yes. Are some criminally bad? Yes. How an average homeowner can make that distinction when every fast talking salesman claims their windows are the best, I do not know. And it's a VERY costly mistake to make.

Having said that....we all know a quality installation is the real equalizer here ;)
Newbie
Feb 3, 2020
6 posts
I'm looking to replace my front door system. Are there any reputable businesses in Newmarket I can trust?
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Mar 10, 2018
6318 posts
2511 upvotes
does it matter?
* The best one was Pella Windows guys. right from appointments, keeping up, measurements, Sales and Installations and others.
"Laws for thee but not for me!" I will keep on jet-setting around the world. Spend as much as I can and enjoy vacations Free at Friends estate. Do as I do not as I say. I used to pay for my vacation until I met my hero.
Member
User avatar
Jul 9, 2003
365 posts
156 upvotes
Hello Guys,

Looking for what I should be expecting to pay for new windows. About 19 windows to replace and a front door.

Background:
in Stratford area
All windows are exterior vinyl wrapped, original builder grade (1992)
Condensation from winters has done some serious damage to them. Mold on mold on mold forms on them all. Cleaning them constantly. (HRV installed in 2018 hasn't really helped)
Hardware is mostly toast.
Seals are failing.
Rotten wood.
Drafty AF!

I had a local company stop by last year and quoted me $30,000 for new windows and a front door. That seems incredibly steep.
For reference I did new last new front door INSTALLED for $1130 all in (12" side light + 36") door - Current door is 36x80 with standard two 12" side lights.

I'm looking for simple windows, nothing crazy. They are mostly standard sizes (mostly all the same size too).
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
djm0 wrote: Hello Guys,

Looking for what I should be expecting to pay for new windows. About 19 windows to replace and a front door.

Background:
in Stratford area
All windows are exterior vinyl wrapped, original builder grade (1992)
Condensation from winters has done some serious damage to them. Mold on mold on mold forms on them all. Cleaning them constantly. (HRV installed in 2018 hasn't really helped)
Hardware is mostly toast.
Seals are failing.
Rotten wood.
Drafty AF!

I had a local company stop by last year and quoted me $30,000 for new windows and a front door. That seems incredibly steep.
For reference I did new last new front door INSTALLED for $1130 all in (12" side light + 36") door - Current door is 36x80 with standard two 12" side lights.

I'm looking for simple windows, nothing crazy. They are mostly standard sizes (mostly all the same size too).
Budget between $900-1100 per window (thats the average across a typical house)

$1130 for a front door with a sidelight is well below our cost for a door, no margin, no install. Budget closer to $7k for an SDS. So $19000+7k is at least $26. If you add colour to the outside of the windows It would easily climb to $28k.

I’d love the detail on what and who installed a sidelite and door for $1130.
Member
User avatar
Jul 9, 2003
365 posts
156 upvotes
Jerico wrote: Budget between $900-1100 per window (thats the average across a typical house)

$1130 for a front door with a sidelight is well below our cost for a door, no margin, no install. Budget closer to $7k for an SDS. So $19000+7k is at least $26. If you add colour to the outside of the windows It would easily climb to $28k.

I’d love the detail on what and who installed a sidelite and door for $1130.
Canada Doors and Windows in Whitby
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Mar 10, 2018
6318 posts
2511 upvotes
does it matter?
djm0 wrote: Hello Guys,

Looking for what I should be expecting to pay for new windows. About 19 windows to replace and a front door.

Background:
in Stratford area
All windows are exterior vinyl wrapped, original builder grade (1992)
Condensation from winters has done some serious damage to them. Mold on mold on mold forms on them all. Cleaning them constantly. (HRV installed in 2018 hasn't really helped)
Hardware is mostly toast.
Seals are failing.
Rotten wood.
Drafty AF!

I had a local company stop by last year and quoted me $30,000 for new windows and a front door. That seems incredibly steep.
For reference I did new last new front door INSTALLED for $1130 all in (12" side light + 36") door - Current door is 36x80 with standard two 12" side lights.

I'm looking for simple windows, nothing crazy. They are mostly standard sizes (mostly all the same size too).
contact Pella Windows. They are expensive but not as you posted above. I seen such quotes on his laptop less than the posted above. Book appointment online.

I am no way affiliated with any windows manufacturer. *
Last edited by MrDisco on Feb 10th, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: unnecessary
"Laws for thee but not for me!" I will keep on jet-setting around the world. Spend as much as I can and enjoy vacations Free at Friends estate. Do as I do not as I say. I used to pay for my vacation until I met my hero.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
djm0 wrote: Canada Doors and Windows in Whitby
As I said, I cant buy a door and sidelite for $1100 so no idea what they would have put in. And no way we could hire installers to do that job for even half that amount. Maybe you could get a builder door with no glass for that at Depot or Lowes, but even then I doubt it.
Member
May 11, 2011
465 posts
120 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
I'm Phil Lewin of GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

Some of what I feel is mis-information re Northstar. They are owned by a USA company that went Chapter 11 for reorganization. Because of this, Northstar went into a Canadian version of Chapter 11 temporarily, but when the USA company re-emerged, so did Northstar. Same company as before.

Re warranties, yes, the glass will be "first to go". If you have your home in 40 years and the manufacturer is still around as the same company they would owe you the glass, but not the installation. Some warranties require you to have them install and for you to pay for the install.... and they charge you enough to also cover their glass cost! Most companies are honourable re warranties, but you need to look out for this 'scam'.
missymouse wrote: Jerico, NorthStar actually honours the warranties from before. I think they've sort of got the Canadian country attitude towards stuff like that. I had a customer with a huge bay where the seal had failed on a window installed by the previous owner. When I called for the customer they said, no problem, register as the new owner and we'll fix it. Certainly not the norm as I've made dozens of calls to other vendors and got the other answer.

(edit: typos by a buggy wireless keyboard)
Deal Addict
Aug 29, 2019
1006 posts
457 upvotes
anotherwindowpro wrote: I'm Phil Lewin of GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

Some of what I feel is mis-information re Northstar. They are owned by a USA company that went Chapter 11 for reorganization. Because of this, Northstar went into a Canadian version of Chapter 11 temporarily, but when the USA company re-emerged, so did Northstar. Same company as before.

Re warranties, yes, the glass will be "first to go". If you have your home in 40 years and the manufacturer is still around as the same company they would owe you the glass, but not the installation. Some warranties require you to have them install and for you to pay for the install.... and they charge you enough to also cover their glass cost! Most companies are honourable re warranties, but you need to look out for this 'scam'.
If the glass goes on a 40 year window, they will only replace the glass and not the entire window? The frame and hardware is probably on it's way out too.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
Katedontbreak wrote: If the glass goes on a 40 year window, they will only replace the glass and not the entire window? The frame and hardware is probably on it's way out too.
It really depends on what they warranty. Seals or seals and hardware and frame.
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Apr 21, 2016
1233 posts
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GTA
Katedontbreak wrote: If the glass goes on a 40 year window, they will only replace the glass and not the entire window? The frame and hardware is probably on it's way out too.
If there is verifiable damage caused by a manufacturer's defect then depending on the window company yes The fact of the matter is in 98% of the cases it is the seals or broken hardware i.e. handle, lock. The vinyl is good for 140 years.

Don't get confused though and think that it would cover builder grade windows. That is a completely different matter regardless of the manufacturer. A JeldWen builder grade is nowhere near the quality of a JeldWen consumer-grade whch frankly is nowhere near a quality window.
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Apr 21, 2016
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anotherwindowpro wrote: I'm Phil Lewin of GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

Some of what I feel is mis-information re Northstar. They are owned by a USA company that went Chapter 11 for reorganization. Because of this, Northstar went into a Canadian version of Chapter 11 temporarily, but when the USA company re-emerged, so did Northstar. Same company as before.

Re warranties, yes, the glass will be "first to go". If you have your home in 40 years and the manufacturer is still around as the same company they would owe you the glass, but not the installation. Some warranties require you to have them install and for you to pay for the install.... and they charge you enough to also cover their glass cost! Most companies are honourable re warranties, but you need to look out for this 'scam'.
You know I couldn't quite recall the circumstances but I knew it was a roll-over from the US re-financing deal.
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Apr 21, 2016
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djm0 wrote: Canada Doors and Windows in Whitby
Jerico went to the website and the show a total of 3 partial images. They look like Stanley doors although the price shown is less than 1/2 that door would cost from a big box without the install. True price should be $2,850 + $1,200 install, no hardware 4 5/8 frame w/bm. I did stumble across a similar door last week and it was a cancelled order clear-out.

It's worth a trip to http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/pml-lmp/index.cf ... ce=WINDOWS to look at their certified windows and the configs.

Oh, and do d/l their warranties. The window one has some downright strange rules and everything is subject to arbitration.
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Apr 21, 2016
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callernamet wrote: contact Pella Windows. They are expensive but not as you posted above. I seen such quotes on his laptop less than the posted above. Book appointment online.

I am no way affiliated with any windows manufacturer. *
But you have access to his quotes on his laptop?
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote: Jerico went to the website and the show a total of 3 partial images. They look like Stanley doors although the price shown is less than 1/2 that door would cost from a big box without the install. True price should be $2,850 + $1,200 install, no hardware 4 5/8 frame w/bm. I did stumble across a similar door last week and it was a cancelled order clear-out.

It's worth a trip to http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/pml-lmp/index.cf ... ce=WINDOWS to look at their certified windows and the configs.

Oh, and do d/l their warranties. The window one has some downright strange rules and everything is subject to arbitration.
Maybe a clearout door would be $1,130 but installed? No way they are using quality labour or materials. Trim/foam/sealant is $100 at cost right off the bat. Maybe MDF, low end foam and $2 caulking.
Deal Guru
Jan 25, 2007
12694 posts
7861 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote: But you have access to his quotes on his laptop?
I always start my appointments by showing customers every quote I’ve ever done including names, address and cost per window. It takes around 4 or 5 hours but I think its worth the effort to show them I’m legit.
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Apr 21, 2016
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djm0 wrote: Hello Guys,

Looking for what I should be expecting to pay for new windows. About 19 windows to replace and a front door.

Background:
in Stratford area
All windows are exterior vinyl wrapped, original builder grade (1992)
Condensation from winters has done some serious damage to them. Mold on mold on mold forms on them all. Cleaning them constantly. (HRV installed in 2018 hasn't really helped)
Hardware is mostly toast.
Seals are failing.
Rotten wood.
Drafty AF!

I had a local company stop by last year and quoted me $30,000 for new windows and a front door. That seems incredibly steep.
For reference I did new last new front door INSTALLED for $1130 all in (12" side light + 36") door - Current door is 36x80 with standard two 12" side lights.

I'm looking for simple windows, nothing crazy. They are mostly standard sizes (mostly all the same size too).
I've been avoiding your quote in the hopes that someone, anyone would respond completely. Jerico tried but to no avail.

So, if you want a good and clear idea of what you should pay, you need to provide all the information in an organized fashion. Sort of like this:

Window 1: Kitchen - current slider - change to awning - 56"(w) X 37 1/2 (h) - currently tiled to casings
Window 2: Washroom - casement left (all openings are hinge side from the outside) frosted - 23 X 37 1/2
Window 3: Bay (3) 33degree - walk-in - extends 13" - flankers 19.5 operating casements - 88 X 67 - roof is OK

etc, etc, etc

The other stuff is choose before you start and would be
glass: Glazing dual pane - 2LoE
interior finish: Casing 3 1/4 Provincial
Jamb depth & Material: Jambs - vinyl cladded - 4 5/8

With the exception of the glass, the rest won't greatly impact the price unless you are looking for extruded jambs, custom casings.

And please understand clearly. Neither Jerico, Phil or I are trying to sell you anything whatsoever. We are interested in making sure you aren't misled and nothing more.

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