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[Merged] Windows/Doors

Member
May 11, 2011
413 posts
107 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
I'm Phil Lewin - GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

I won't repeat what MM has said. Good stuff. What is also interesting is that the Feds are ratcheting up standards in 2020, 2025 and 2030. This will also have a profound effect on manufacturers. Some will need to make radical changes to meet these requirements and may not have the financial strength to do it. As far as 2019, I think the industry is already seeing the post grant slump from GreenON, which will drive some players (as MM noted) out of business..... until the next grant.
missymouse wrote:
Nov 5th, 2018 2:49 pm
My opinion only based on years and years of business experience.

The GreenON fallout will result in a significant number of the smaller dealers exiting the business because of the hidden costs of dealing with late deliveries, order errors, rejected GreenOn apps and the general costs of 1st ramping the staff up and now reducing the staff. I still can’t understand how an industry on the whole thought they could increase volume in manufacturing, supply and installation without any kind of planning. Already manufacturers are shedding factory workers, reducing shifts and cancelling material orders.

It’s going to take into the summer of 2019 for the completion of all the debris left over from poor and incomplete installs and these are now being done at the expense of either the installer or the dealer. For example, I’ve got customers who I signed with a previous employer and they are now on their 6th service call to resolve install issues. They aren’t making money............................................

Culturally, inside the organizations, there is going to be an inward focus on who is going to lose their job, who is going to have their contracts terminated and where will they find work come January. Having seen this in numerous industries, the one thing I can promise you, it will be ugly and there will be zero focus on customers. Simply put, the majority of these companies have neither the management knowledge nor skills to maneuver this minefield. Shortly, they will reduce their sale force by 60-70% because of a lack of potential leads or simply a lack of sales, reduce their GreenON staff 100% come November 30th and shortly thereafter reduce their installation crews by 60-70%. Internally the atmosphere will be toxic, externally it will destroy reputations.

Prices will rise come the end of March, probably in the 4% neighbourhood with some dealers tacking on a few points for themselves. Tariffs themselves on the base product were and remain 6.5% so that won’t have a dramatic impact, the same for polymers and paints used in manufacture.

You will continue to see behind the scenes amalgamation of manufacturers with the larger dealers. Already Northstar has bought into Brock, Nordik has bought Consumers Choice, Northern Comfort, Verdun and Beverly Hills. I would look for fewer options, lesser quality and less product selection overall as the result of this trend. The downside for consumers is that you now have to be very aware of where you are getting your “competitive” quote from.

A spin-off from this might be the formation of dealer alliances similar to the franchise support groups in fast food. For example, Vinylbilt dealers might work towards jointly combining orders for larger volumes.

There will be a plethora of lawsuits from customers who either didn’t qualify for GreenON, were not installed in time for GreenON or who have subsequently found the install to be shoddy and improperly done. These have a tendency to be drawn out affairs and are corrosive over time. You will in all likelihood have a few nuisance class actions against the larger dealers or possibly the PC Government. Certification for a CA would not be difficult and if you’re a larger dealer with hundreds of unhappy customers it wouldn’t be hard to have a disgruntled customer lead the way.

There should be the incentive for both the smaller and midsized dealers to start to automate or computerize their quoting and ordering systems to eliminate errors and omissions. There are huge disconnects between the manufacturers and the dealers in almost every point of contact. From how the information is sent, how it is confirmed to who it is scheduled and delivered all need serious work. From a customer perspective, there is great value in knowing exactly what you are actually buying and having it presented in a clear and concise manner.

My take only BTW
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5101 posts
1957 upvotes
Paris
anotherwindowpro wrote:
Nov 13th, 2018 11:27 am
I'm Phil Lewin - GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

I won't repeat what MM has said. Good stuff. What is also interesting is that the Feds are ratcheting up standards in 2020, 2025 and 2030. This will also have a profound effect on manufacturers. Some will need to make radical changes to meet these requirements and may not have the financial strength to do it. As far as 2019, I think the industry is already seeing the post grant slump from GreenON, which will drive some players (as MM noted) out of business..... until the next grant.
I know some manufacturers couldn't make sliding windows (or versions of sliders) for GreenOn so they will need some big changes to be able to do that for 2020. You can't be a window manufacturer without sliding windows.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Newbie
Apr 22, 2018
12 posts
4 upvotes
My contractor had a mixup with my windows that were supposed to be installed back in October. They are finally in and can possibly be installed next week. It's much colder now, with temps around -5, does that have any impact on the spray foam insulation they need to use? Is there anything in particular they should be doing to ensure a good seal that I should be watching out for?
Newbie
Nov 2, 2018
28 posts
11 upvotes
bosssk wrote:
Nov 14th, 2018 4:15 pm
My contractor had a mixup with my windows that were supposed to be installed back in October. They are finally in and can possibly be installed next week. It's much colder now, with temps around -5, does that have any impact on the spray foam insulation they need to use? Is there anything in particular they should be doing to ensure a good seal that I should be watching out for?
One major thing to look out for is if there is any ice built-up on your exterior sills/brick that they are caulking over. Have a look in the days following installation to ensure that the caulk around your windows has sealed well and is not "curling" up or peeling away from your brick/sills. Other than that, my installers work year round to good results, so nothing much to worry about. As for the foam, they have special bags that plug in and keep the stuff warm. It is designed for temps up to -10
Newbie
Apr 22, 2018
12 posts
4 upvotes
WindowGuyLarry wrote:
Nov 14th, 2018 6:25 pm
One major thing to look out for is if there is any ice built-up on your exterior sills/brick that they are caulking over. Have a look in the days following installation to ensure that the caulk around your windows has sealed well and is not "curling" up or peeling away from your brick/sills. Other than that, my installers work year round to good results, so nothing much to worry about. As for the foam, they have special bags that plug in and keep the stuff warm. It is designed for temps up to -10
Thanks for the advice Larry, very appreciated!
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5101 posts
1957 upvotes
Paris
WindowGuyLarry wrote:
Nov 14th, 2018 6:25 pm
Other than that, my installers work year round to good results, so nothing much to worry about. As for the foam, they have special bags that plug in and keep the stuff warm. It is designed for temps up to -10
Agreed 100%.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Newbie
Mar 13, 2018
53 posts
5 upvotes
missymouse wrote:
Nov 1st, 2018 9:30 pm
AAAH, it doesn't matter if its argon or CO2. The same law of physics still applies
So, it's all relative then? Who knew? Maybe I should have sought crystal ball advice from the Physics Network?
Newbie
Mar 13, 2018
53 posts
5 upvotes
missymouse wrote:
Nov 5th, 2018 2:49 pm
There should be the incentive for both the smaller and midsized dealers to start to automate or computerize their quoting and ordering systems to eliminate errors and omissions. There are huge disconnects between the manufacturers and the dealers in almost every point of contact. From how the information is sent, how it is confirmed to who it is scheduled and delivered all need serious work. From a customer perspective, there is great value in knowing exactly what you are actually buying and having it presented in a clear and concise manner.

My take only BTW
Like, duh, of course, truer words as they say....
I repeatedly posited my thoughts to my vendor about why does the "industry" not have a single, initial order sheet barcode or serial # that can track an order through every step of the process. From Windows 'R' Us (fake example) to VinylBilt (as an example) to Cardinal Glass (as an example) and remove the ??? factor.
People, the technology is out there. It's not rocket science.
However, I do find the coating of float glass by "sputtering" pretty out-of-this-world.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5101 posts
1957 upvotes
Paris
DueDilligence wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 5:11 pm
People, the technology is out there. It's not rocket science.
The Ag equipment industry only standardized VIN numbers on $500K+ tractors 10 years ago. Drug companies are still in progress on this. Won’t happen on windows.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Member
Apr 21, 2016
224 posts
50 upvotes
GTA
DueDilligence wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 5:11 pm
Like, duh, of course, truer words as they say....
I repeatedly posited my thoughts to my vendor about why does the "industry" not have a single, initial order sheet barcode or serial # that can track an order through every step of the process. From Windows 'R' Us (fake example) to VinylBilt (as an example) to Cardinal Glass (as an example) and remove the ??? factor.
People, the technology is out there. It's not rocket science.
However, I do find the coating of float glass by "sputtering" pretty out-of-this-world.
The answer would probably really annoy you. I was literally involved in a discussion about this last Friday and it was not pleasant.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5101 posts
1957 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 7:13 pm
The answer would probably really annoy you. I was literally involved in a discussion about this last Friday and it was not pleasant.
Why would it even happen though? What business advantage is there?
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Member
Apr 21, 2016
224 posts
50 upvotes
GTA
Jerico wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 7:00 pm
The Ag equipment industry only standardized VIN numbers on $500K+ tractors 10 years ago. Drug companies are still in progress on this. Won’t happen on windows.
ANd yet 20 some years ago my brother and I wrote a system for CTC that enabled them to on the fly audit tractor trailers, compare it to the original waybill and then to the receiver's report from the franchisee. It saved them over 6 million in the 1st year. Apparently, the window industry has no desire to track stuff.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5101 posts
1957 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 7:15 pm
Apparently, the window industry has no desire to track stuff.
Track stuff to whose satisfaction? Yours or theirs? We used to have a saying in market research... “Thats great info. What are you going to DO with it?”
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Newbie
Mar 13, 2018
53 posts
5 upvotes
missymouse wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 7:13 pm
The answer would probably really annoy you. I was literally involved in a discussion about this last Friday and it was not pleasant.
Oh dear... Disappointed Face and yes, I am annoyed by stupidity. I've been saying for many years that overall humanity is now riding the downward slope on the IQ bell curve, a theory which has been recently backed up by scientific research.
I am sorry for your pain and thanks for taking a bullet for the rest of us.
Newbie
Mar 13, 2018
53 posts
5 upvotes
Jerico wrote:
Nov 18th, 2018 7:22 pm
Track stuff to whose satisfaction? Yours or theirs? We used to have a saying in market research... “That's great info. What are you going to DO with it?”
I guess that's just me. As I once played a major part of shipping broadcast equipment around the world to major events (including the Olympics) and would babysit it every step of the way. So this is probably a force of habit I suppose. But I often was able to put out a fire before it ignited.
Therefore, show me the data! No need to hide the info, it's making windows, not being part of the Illuminati.

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