Home & Garden

[Merged] Windows/Doors

Newbie
Nov 2, 2018
45 posts
19 upvotes
missymouse wrote:
Nov 28th, 2018 9:56 pm
And as Jerico will remind you, the best window is shit if poorly installed and a pretty shitty window can be made pretty good if properly installed.
Well this I certainly agree to. Nothing is more important than a good, honest, installation.

And while this is RedFlagDeals, I will remind you that we are in the open discussion forum, not the "hot deals" forum. Big difference.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote:
Nov 28th, 2018 9:56 pm
And as Jerico will remind you, the best window is shit if poorly installed and a pretty shitty window can be made pretty good if properly installed.
You can’t put a $500 tree in a $50 hole. And putting a $50 tree into a $500 doesn’t make it any better.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
missymouse wrote:
Nov 28th, 2018 9:56 pm
If I was building a new custom house, I'd go with German wood/aluminum hybrids which are far superior to both vinyl and fibreglass and add another dimension to the price. See my point?
I have to comment on this too in relation to fibreglass. Once you are committed to a higher price point, fibreglass isn’t where I would go. Much like if I move into the $100k car market. Corvettes are all fine and good and some people like them, but there are far better options once you increase that price point.

As with anything, you need to find the sweet spot for increasing value before decreasing returns as you get more and more expensive. It’s a logarithmic scale, not a flat line. Going from builder grade to better windows? Worth it... increasing 20% in cost for 2% in energy efficiency? Probably not worth it.

The law of diminishing returns applies to any purchase, and right now fibreglass returns do not justify the increased costs over “very good” vinyl. I really hope they come down in price.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
WindowGuyLarry wrote:
Nov 28th, 2018 9:05 pm
Other than cost and lead times, there is literally not a single performance benefit that a Vinyl Window has over Fiberglass.
Other than cost... other than cost and lead times there are far superior windows than fibreglass. This is a strange argument to make and never ending one upmanship.

Other than cost and lead times a Tesla is far superior to my car.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Newbie
Nov 2, 2018
45 posts
19 upvotes
Jerico wrote:
Nov 29th, 2018 3:11 am

....but there are far better options once you increase that price point.

As with anything, you need to find the sweet spot for increasing value before decreasing returns as you get more and more expensive. It’s a logarithmic scale, not a flat line. Going from builder grade to better windows? Worth it... increasing 20% in cost for 2% in energy efficiency? Probably not worth it.

The law of diminishing returns applies to any purchase, and right now fibreglass returns do not justify the increased costs over “very good” vinyl. I really hope they come down in price.
Jerico, I very much respect your opinions and I'm not here to argue (too much ;) ) and I do agree with the law of diminishing returns. Value engineering is a big part of what I do every day.

"20% in cost for 2% in energy efficiency...probably not worth it"- - - You're missing the big picture. I contend that there are a multitude of benefits over just Energy efficiency. Aesthetics/Looks, Large size allowances, Longevity, etc.....Does the longevity of a window not add to the overall value?

"Other than cost and lead times there are far superior windows than fiberglass" - - - I don't doubt that. My friend just built a house with 75k worth of black Lowen windows and they are stunning. You guys are not understanding that I am OFTEN the same or cheaper than some vinyl quotes. And in THESE cases, I suggest homeowners look into a fiberglass option. That's all I'm saying. I agree that 5k on a 20k simple residential job is a large increase, and a good vinyl window would probably suit the needs of most people.

The problem I'm seeing is that many people have trouble distinguishing "good vinyl" from "cheap vinyl" and so end up with a builder grade product that fails them sooner rather than later. I've seen it too many times, and my heart aches for these people. In the truest vein of RedFlagDeals, I think while Fiberglass is a more expensive option, it is no where near as expensive as the wood (or wood/aluminum) options, and offers great value for their money. And isn't that what this is all about
Member
May 11, 2011
415 posts
107 upvotes
Highway 427 and The …
I'm Phil Lewin - GEM Windows and a member of numerous industry and NGO committees.

Whew. I'm sure our homeowners are enjoying this tussle, if nothing else. Folks, nothing here is black and white. here is what I know.
Price: Vinyl Windows are lower in price.
Material Structural strength allowing for narrower profiles: Fiberglass wins, except where the vinyl is reinforced.
Thermal Performance: More to do with the choice of glass than the framing material. Note that because of price, a pvc customer can get a lot better performing glass and still be within the range of the basic fiberglass price.
Dirability, including water resistance: This is a fun one. I will digress! In the 1980s there was an interesting series of tests performed by a lab at the request of NRCan. They secretly bought windows off the shelf that they had acquired structural testing for with the goal of doing an aging test. Note that even now, there are only test results of new windows without regard to how long they survive in use. Here are the results as presented.

Fiberglass maintained its performance, except in regard to water leakage which happened after the aging simulation. I can accept Larry's claim that a lot of care is put into corners to prevent this today.
Vinyl did great, except seals (which can be replaced) did show some wear.
Wood had an overall deterioration that lowered its performance.
Aluminum.... ah, in those days, residential aluminum product was crap. Not the stuff we see going into high end homes today, but the result and way they announced it had entertainment value. I can still quote what they said. "The good news is that the aluminum windows as tested showed no signs of performance degradation. The bad news is these windows failed to meet code or the performance values claimed in their reports to start!" As I said, not today's windows.

I don't think this discussion has been inappropriate. It is important that in this age of 'false news' and ridiculous claims, a homeowner always takes into account the source and the source's potential motivation.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
WindowGuyLarry wrote:
Nov 29th, 2018 10:00 am
Aesthetics/Looks, Large size allowances, Longevity, etc.....Does the longevity of a window not add to the overall value?
I would say that insulation value and longevity are the 2 most important factors in any window. Nothing drives me more crazy than people buying cheap, or spending money on colour or inserts on a sliding window over casement/awning performance.

I personally will only sell windows I believe will last. Lifetime product and labour warranty, thicker vinyl, etc etc etc. We install 3 different brands of windows and I really will only sell 1. I’d rather lose the sale than put in crap. I have walked away from sales when someone insisted on a brand we are technically dealers of (based on other exterior finishing products we install) instead of a better window at 1% difference in cost (if even that much).

I agree there is a LOT of vinyl manufacturers with a premium price for hot garbage. And I would say as fibreglass comes down in price or more players, you will end up in the same place. Like Apple said they ever got viruses... It was only because they were 10% of the operating systems out there so no one targeted them. As their operating system share went up, so did them being a target of viruses.

My favorite thing about fibreglass is the seasonal movement rate (expansion contraction) is so much closer to glass. But a good seal warranty on vinyl windows negates some of that.

Personally, I dont think we have the right solution for windows in any form right now. R2-R4-R8 vs a R30 wall? I’m not sure I want to see outside that badly :)
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Jr. Member
May 1, 2007
197 posts
62 upvotes
Toronto
I am enjoying the vinyl/fiberglass discussion very much and don't feel that anybody is shilling for either product. This is very educational and helping me to make better decisions with my window project when comes back on my agenda (due to it being cancelled due to GreenOn).
Newbie
Jul 22, 2009
22 posts
Scarborough
Agreed with rjp123, this was a very informative conversation. I wish some of these posts were stickied...
TorontoGirl6 wrote:
Nov 28th, 2018 6:03 pm
Hello, I just some windows replaced (not with WINMAX or Canadian Choice Windows and Doors). I went with Globaltek and I would not suggest them. I see they are not on your list. Good luck!
Can I ask what made you feel this way? We just got a quote from them so am curious.
Jerico wrote:
Nov 29th, 2018 1:08 pm
I would say that insulation value and longevity are the 2 most important factors in any window. Nothing drives me more crazy than people buying cheap, or spending money on colour or inserts on a sliding window over casement/awning performance.

I personally will only sell windows I believe will last. Lifetime product and labour warranty, thicker vinyl, etc etc etc. We install 3 different brands of windows and I really will only sell 1. I’d rather lose the sale than put in crap.
Jerico, can I ask what is the brand of window you endorse? I am interested in insulation and longevity as well, but as I mentioned there's a lot of information to digest here and leads would be great.

Many thanks!
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
Reine wrote:
Nov 29th, 2018 7:29 pm
Jerico, can I ask what is the brand of window you endorse? I am interested in insulation and longevity as well, but as I mentioned there's a lot of information to digest here and leads would be great.
There are a few out there buying their vinyl and glass from the same folks. Personally I put VinylGuard in my own house as they are the only ones with a labour warranty to fix the windows.

Full disclosure: yes we are a dealer of theirs. We are also a dealer of 5 other companies.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Member
Apr 21, 2016
235 posts
52 upvotes
GTA
Jerico wrote:
Nov 30th, 2018 2:22 am
There are a few out there buying their vinyl and glass from the same folks. Personally I put VinylGuard in my own house as they are the only ones with a labour warranty to fix the windows.

Full disclosure: yes we are a dealer of theirs. We are also a dealer of 5 other companies.
I'm not a dealer of VinylGuard but I would agree.
Newbie
May 10, 2007
9 posts
I have question about windows installation, I am planning to change 14 windows in my current house, I don't know if the window installation is good to be installed in winter or wait till spring time frame?
Deal Fanatic
Jan 25, 2007
5230 posts
2120 upvotes
Paris
richardwoo wrote:
Dec 2nd, 2018 10:32 am
I have question about windows installation, I am planning to change 14 windows in my current house, I don't know if the window installation is good to be installed in winter or wait till spring time frame?
Any time all year round.
Gbill2004: Thanks but I'll just smell the couch before/if I buy it.

jonnyb: I go in there like PICASSO and toss the glue everywhere, I don't care what house I'm on.
Member
Apr 21, 2016
235 posts
52 upvotes
GTA
richardwoo wrote:
Dec 2nd, 2018 10:32 am
I have question about windows installation, I am planning to change 14 windows in my current house, I don't know if the window installation is good to be installed in winter or wait till spring time frame?
Get a quote between now and mid-Fedbruary and sign the deal. Usually, the price increases come through in early March. You can get this years price and then I'd do an early April install.
Deal Addict
Jul 29, 2006
3721 posts
544 upvotes
in GTA - got a quote for 5 panel shaker door 80" height x 30" width x 3/8" for $150/door. Does that sound reasonable?

Top

Thread Information

There are currently 2 users viewing this thread. (2 members and 0 guests)

BigJonsson, chriscabob