MMPA program at UTM

[LostCanadian]

Hi,

I graduated in Computer Engineering from U of W last year and now want to move towards finance/accounting fields. I want to hear your opinion about Master of Management and Accounting (MMPA) program at UTM.

What are the career prospects after graduating from this program? How are the classes like ? How hard is it to get into ?

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?

I am also considering MBA. What do you guys think is better option? MMPA or MBA?

Any one has any thoughts on McMaster MBA program ?

thanks,

[codemonkey]

edited.

[charliebrown]

Hi,

I graduated in Computer Engineering from U of W last year and now want to move towards finance/accounting fields. I want to hear your opinion about Master of Management and Accounting (MMPA) program at UTM.

What are the career prospects after graduating from this program? How are the classes like ? How hard is it to get into ?

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?

I am also considering MBA. What do you guys think is better option? MMPA or MBA?

Any one has any thoughts on McMaster MBA program ?

thanks,

Quite a drastic jump from comp eng to accounting; what are your career objectives?

From what i understand about MMPA program (based on what some of the students whom i've worked with), there's a co-op component and the program helps you meet the ICAO/CICA education requirements to write CA exam.

It could be a pretty long road (2-3 yrs?) to get to the CA entrance exam; then you have to meet the 30 month work experience requirement before you can add CA after your name.

Most big4 will hire coops from MMPA program; and because it is a masters program, you'll find that your peer group will be a bit older (i.e. around 30?) before you write the CA.

MBA could land you a job faster, but employers may de-value your MBA esp if the program lets you enter with minimal work experience.

Good luck!

[codemonkey]

yo seriously is that you man?

[watewate]

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't waste my time on the MMPA.

First off, you're probably too late to start the program this September. So you'll have to wait one year - 1 year wasted.

After you waste one year, you'd have to complete the MMPA program - another 2 years gone.

So in 3 years, you'll start work at a big-4 (after doing 2 co-op terms). I've yet to meet anyone from the MMPA program start off at a senior-level - i.e. you'll likely start at the junior-level like the fresh-undergrads - although a promotion is likely in one year given the 2 co-op terms (IF you were lucky enough to get hired onto a big-4 during your first co-op term). AFAIK, the placement rate, at least at the big-4s, didn't come off as too encouraging (strict hearsay - confirm on your own).

Regardless, you'll still have the UFE process, which should take up another year or so. Work experience at big-4 is no longer mandatory, so you won't be tied up at a big-4 for 30 months (assuming that you find a CICA-designated/approved industry company - which will be hard to find in the first few years), but you'll probably want to stay long enough to take advantage of the UFE training. That's another 2 years gone.

So in five years - possibly 6 if you decide to stay a little longer at the firm - you'd be free to practice in the industry. That, combined with the opportunity and tuition costs involved with going to school full-time for 2 years, and working at a big-4... let's just say that you're going to be cash-strapped for a long time.



If I were in your shoes, I'd try to beg your way into the acclerated CMA program and spend the next year meeting the eligibility requirements to write the entrance exam for next June. If all goes according to plan, you'd have your CMA in 3 years. I know, CMA is not as prestigious as CA, but CA is getting rid of their audit hour requirements for those starting work in 2008. Their curriculum is moving closer to CMA as of late, and will be even closer as they de-emphasize audit component during the next round of curriculum overhaul which will coincide with the abolishment of audit hour requirements.

CICA has always given some advanced-standing for CGAs and CMAs - i.e. they had to do SOA/UFE, but not the CKE. With audit hour requirement soon to be gone, getting CA through CMA/CGA should become less arduous - although it may take many years. I know that CICA will probably be pretty tight with the industry-trained CA requirements for the first few years, but I don't expect that to last. I wouldn't go to the CMA route banking on them relaxing the reciprocity standards, but I still think it's a possibility that will likely materialize in the medium-term.

So what does this all mean? You can either work now, and have 3 years of work experience under your belt with CMA - with the faint hope that you'd write CA later on as the entrance exam requirement is lowered over the next few years. You'd have a total of 5 years of industry-experience by the time you would possibly be out of a CA-firm. This puts you in the prime range to pursue MBA, should you choose to go that route. Alternatively, you can go complete the MMPA program and not break into the industry for another five years, but be guaranteed that you'd come away with a CA.

For undergrads, I think it makes to sense to do CA in most cases. Given your limited/non-existent accounting education, you'd have to weigh the costs and benefits of going through the MMPA before you decide.


If you were interested in the MBA, you'd be happy to know that CMA is basically an MBA... and it's all case-based. Heck, you'll find joint MBA-CMA programs at Queen's, Laurier and other schools...

[trusoulja2g]

You may be interested in this post from the accounting.com msg board:

If you are considering the Rotman MMPA program in order to get an inside track on good accounting jobs, be aware of the following:

- Typically, the good jobs (i.e. Big 4 and midsize firms like BDO Dunwoody and RSM Richter) go to students who fit a particular profile. This would be a native English speaker or equivalent (like an educated Indian) who is socially confortable in Canadian society. In terms of age, a recent graduate or someone with a few years experience (i.e. age between 22 and 30). If you fit this profile, the MMPA program would be a good choice for you. If you do not, getting a good job is quite a bit more challenging. Note that grades are basically not a factor.

- The program states they have 100% coop placement. This is correct, but again only half the jobs are good jobs that go to students who fit the profile. The rest get jobs at small accounting firms, sometimes for 2 to 2.5 months only during the busy tax season (mid Feb to April) - expect to work long hours doing personal tax returns for low wages. Some firms expect you to "volunteer" for half the workterm.

- A few students are unable to get jobs at CA firms and thus cannot become CAs - they instead do CPA, CMA, CGA or CFA.

The downside with making a switch to accounting, either through MMPA or MBA program, is that it's like starting over...you get no credit for your prior degree and start off at the same level as 22 yr old fresh grads. It's one thing to work the long hours at relatively low pay in your early 20's after only 4 years university...starting in your late 20's with another $20K in education is less palatable.

Assuming you have no prior accounting courses and no related work experience, I don't think there's much of a difference between pursuing the CA and CMA. i.e. it isn't much easier to get a CMA. Anyway, the education requirements are almost identical...only difference is where you get your work experience, which is a couple years down the road anyway.

In terms of where to get the education, you could either do MMPA or an MBA. Some MBA programs (like McMaster) allow you to get all of the required courses within the 2 yr program. But MMPA has co-op and probably better Big 4 recruiting chances. You can get the education anywhere...it's getting a position within a firm that's the harder part.

Re MBA vs accounting...obviously the type of work is a little different...MBA is usually either finance/marketing based. But in terms of career prospects, both require relevant work experience. Most successful MBA grads already have work experience before entering the program. MBA with no work experience is very hard to find a job...lots of those people around. With accounting, prior accounting experience isn't required but you do need to fit the profile of what the recruiters are looking for. And every accounting designation requires a period of approved work experience to get the designation.

[poorwingman]

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't waste my time on the MMPA.

First off, you're probably too late to start the program this September. So you'll have to wait one year - 1 year wasted.

After you waste one year, you'd have to complete the MMPA program - another 2 years gone.

So in 3 years, you'll start work at a big-4 (after doing 2 co-op terms). I've yet to meet anyone from the MMPA program start off at a senior-level - i.e. you'll likely start at the junior-level like the fresh-undergrads - although a promotion is likely in one year given the 2 co-op terms (IF you were lucky enough to get hired onto a big-4 during your first co-op term). AFAIK, the placement rate, at least at the big-4s, didn't come off as too encouraging (strict hearsay - confirm on your own).

Regardless, you'll still have the UFE process, which should take up another year or so. Work experience at big-4 is no longer mandatory, so you won't be tied up at a big-4 for 30 months (assuming that you find a CICA-designated/approved industry company - which will be hard to find in the first few years), but you'll probably want to stay long enough to take advantage of the UFE training. That's another 2 years gone.

Get your facts straight.

MMPA has rolling admissions meaning they accept people all year round to start at the beginning of any point in the program (27/24/16 month program). However, the school year for people with no acc't background starts in May.

The UFE process is concurrent with MMPA students in their last year. Big firms will pay for training/exams even though you're a coop student and haven't started full time yet. So it doesn't take up an extra year.

If you sit out till May 2007, it will not be one year wasted in your career as long as you do something productve (i.e. find travel or other work). Who knows, your other work may be more lucrative and you won't go back to school.

The placement rate for MMPA students who do fit the profile (speak english properly and not totally weird) is very high (over 90%) at big firms.

MMPA program has 8 months of co-op experience so you have to work at a big firm for 22 more months to fill the experience requirement. When you graduate MMPA, you write the UFE ( you also have to write the CKE and SOA) and you return to work as an intermediate if you work at a big firm. The following year, you will be a senior and by the end of the summer you will have filled the experience requirement.

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.

with all that said, MMPA program is another 50k + in debt and it is approx a 50 month commitment to accounting (including school and professional time). your starting salary at a big firm will probably be just over 50k. after taxes and loan repayment, you're not left with much. and it takes a long long time to pay back that much in debt. unless living at home with your parents is an option and is your cup of tea.

other RFDers are right in that your first degree will be worthless other than to be used as a conversation piece. your salary or work will not reflect that you have an eng degree as well. promotion/remuneration is based on experience and performance within the acc't industry.

some other things to consider regarding MMPA vs. MBA is that MBA jobs are typically much more exciting. If you do the MMPA (and if you work at a big 4 firm), you're forced into their pay structure and doing that type of work. imo, MBA jobs have more potential to do different types of work.

my overall suggestion is that you should see how far your eng degree can take you before you decided to go back to school. you'll also get more out of a MBA if you have some real work experience first.

Most big4 will hire coops from MMPA program; and because it is a masters program, you'll find that your peer group will be a bit older (i.e. around 30?) before you write the CA.

the average student in MMPA just finished undergrad or is a year removed from undergrad. so they are not close to 30 at all.

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?

it varies from year to year. there isn't any way for RFDers to predict what the culture will be in a future crop of MMPA students. if you're really interested, call the program. i'm sure they'd let you sit in on a class so you can see what it's like.

[charliebrown]

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.

Well, by coming back as a senior, it means one is closer to promotion to manager when one finishes the 30 month requirement. I know most MAcc ppl will get their designation in spring of one yr, and because the firms count all the co-op experience, then make manager in Sept/Oct the same yr (assuming you have decent performance evals).

There are some ppl that thrive in the big4 setting -- they are able to manage the stress/time requirements during busy season, and they just cruise through summer with golf days, training, campus recruiting, etc.

the average student in MMPA just finished undergrad or is a year removed from undergrad. so they are not close to 30 at all.

sorry, i meant the ppl i've worked with -- i guess by the time co-op rolls around and with the workload...made me think some of the ppl were closer to 30 than 24.


Back to the OP's question,

I think MMPA is more for ppl that have a background in finance/accounting during undergrad...not completely sure of their admission requirements; if you're sure about getting a CA, may be worthwhile to investigate which credits you need to enter the MMPA program.

[poorwingman]

Well, by coming back as a senior, it means one is closer to promotion to manager when one finishes the 30 month requirement. I know most MAcc ppl will get their designation in spring of one yr, and because the firms count all the co-op experience, then make manager in Sept/Oct the same yr (assuming you have decent performance evals).

There are some ppl that thrive in the big4 setting -- they are able to manage the stress/time requirements during busy season, and they just cruise through summer with golf days, training, campus recruiting, etc.

not everyone wants to be an audit manager.

with respect to stress/time requirements, it also really depends what industries you specialize in. there is no downtime for financial services. it seems like they are busy all year round.

[jazzyc4t]

Here is a real, unbiased answer...

The MMPA is a graduate accounting degree which aims to provide all the necessary 51-credit hours required by the ICAO to qualify for the CA designation. Its meant for anyone who did not complete the 51-credit hours in their undergrad. This means you'll find Arts/Science/Commerce and Engineering students in the program.

Some advantages of the program is that it allows you complete the 51-credit requirement and gain some Co-op experience in 2 years of fulltime study. Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.

As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms, and whether you get a job or not really depends on you and not the program.

Most MMPAs will start as Sr. Associates, if they end up at the same shop as their co-op placement. If not, more commonly they end up as Associates.

As for MMPA v. MBA, it depends on your career goals, if you want to be a CA, go the MMPA route, if you are interested in general managment then MBA is a better fit.

[poorwingman]

Here is a real, unbiased answer...

....

Some advantages of the program is that it allows you complete the 51-credit requirement and gain some Co-op experience in 2 years of fulltime study. Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.

As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms, and whether you get a job or not really depends on you and not the program.

Most MMPAs will start as Sr. Associates, if they end up at the same shop as their co-op placement. If not, more commonly they end up as Associates.

above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

In fact, most MMPA grads do not start as seniors. that is ridiculous. MMPA grads have 2 co-op terms which is not sufficient experience to senior. As I mentioned in an earlier post, MMPA grads start FT as an intermediate (AKA experienced associate). After 1 year as an intermediate, you will be a senior. All this despite staying at the same "shop". Like UW students, most MMPA students stay at the same "shop" through co-op and gain full time employment there.

[jazzyc4t]

above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

In fact, most MMPA grads do not start as seniors. that is ridiculous. MMPA grads have 2 co-op terms which is not sufficient experience to senior. As I mentioned in an earlier post, MMPA grads start FT as an intermediate (AKA experienced associate). After 1 year as an intermediate, you will be a senior. All this despite staying at the same "shop". Like UW students, most MMPA students stay at the same "shop" through co-op and gain full time employment there.

http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/mmpa/M...signations.htm

How many people do you know that have went through the program? I know 5... All five of them went on to senior associate positions after graduating.

[jazzyc4t]

above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Please read my posts before flamming.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

I never stated anything about interviews... I only referred to the fact that these firms recruit (accept applications) MMPA students.

[poorwingman]

http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/mmpa/M...signations.htm

How many people do you know that have went through the program? I know 5... All five of them went on to senior associate positions after graduating.

i know 100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm a mmpa grad. there actually are several of us on rfd.

the only ppl that started as seniors when they started FT had prior audit experience.

2 co-op terms is not sufficient experience start as a senior. anyone at a big 4 firm can attest to that. UTSc undergrad co-ops have 3 co-op terms and return as intermediates. only UW co-ops return full time as seniors and they have 4 co-op terms of experience.

Please read my posts before flamming.



I never stated anything about interviews... I only referred to the fact that these firms recruit (accept applications) MMPA students.

Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.
.......As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms

i did read your post. call it flaming or whatever you want but your post is wrong. my classmates and i pursuing the CA designation had to write the CKE and SOA.

further, everyone isn't given the opportunity to interview as you stated. in actual fact, everyone has the opportunity to apply and any given year big4 firms interview 15-20 people.

[LostCanadian]

If you sit out till May 2007, it will not be one year wasted in your career as long as you do something productve (i.e. find travel or other work). Who knows, your other work may be more lucrative and you won't go back to school.

The placement rate for MMPA students who do fit the profile (speak english properly and not totally weird) is very high (over 90%) at big firms.

MMPA program has 8 months of co-op experience so you have to work at a big firm for 22 more months to fill the experience requirement. When you graduate MMPA, you write the UFE ( you also have to write the CKE and SOA) and you return to work as an intermediate if you work at a big firm. The following year, you will be a senior and by the end of the summer you will have filled the experience requirement.

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.

with all that said, MMPA program is another 50k + in debt and it is approx a 50 month commitment to accounting (including school and professional time). your starting salary at a big firm will probably be just over 50k. after taxes and loan repayment, you're not left with much. and it takes a long long time to pay back that much in debt. unless living at home with your parents is an option and is your cup of tea.

other RFDers are right in that your first degree will be worthless other than to be used as a conversation piece. your salary or work will not reflect that you have an eng degree as well. promotion/remuneration is based on experience and performance within the acc't industry.

Thanks a lot for the info. I currently have a job doing ******** work for a bank's IT department. The problem is that i hate programming and want either to become a Business Analyst or move towards accounting / finance/ consulting... basically anything that can get me an exit door out of IT.

The reason i was thinking accounting over MBA was that unlike MBA, MMPA prepares you specifically for a job... so kinda hope that you will easilly find a job after accounting. MBA on the other hand doesnt specifically lead you towards a certain profession. Its same as the difference between doing bacherlor in Math vs. Engineering. Engineering gets you specific job whereas Math gives you general quantitiave knowledge.... do you think this evaluation is correct.

Given that you graduated from MMPA, would you do it again if given the chance? Did you enjoy the class atmosphere ? The 50K salary you mentioned, is it after 50 months or is it right after graduation ? One guy at UTM was telling me that some grads out of MMPA get salaries like 35k after graduation. I didnt believe him, but whats your opinion about that?

Another reason why MMPA seems a bit more attractive to me is that it has management courses, including i think one or two finance courses. So hopefully it can open way for getting a job in consulting / finance field... or am i mistaken ?