Real Estate

Museum House Toronto -- Help me understand the math.

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 3rd, 2018 9:22 pm
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes

Museum House Toronto -- Help me understand the math.

I've been looking at some high end condos namely, Yorkville Private Estates, One Bloor West, Museum House and One Bedford.

There are currently 2 units for sale at Museum House:
C4043016 facing North is 1942 sqrt feet at 1.8k psf
C4032534 facing South is 2542 sqrt feet at 1.7k psf

South views are substantially better because you get to see the city, North views you see the Annex.

Maintenance is roughly 1.55 psf.

Historical Price sold (according to http://dylandonovan.ca/luxury-condos/museum-house/):
Nov 17 @1.56k psf for South View
May 17 @1.17k psf for North View
June 16 @0.95k psf for South View

If we assume May last year was the peak, doesn't this suggest both listings are grossly overpriced?

Doesn't this suggest a fair price of 1.1k psf for the North facing unit, and maybe 1.3k psf for the South facing unit? Or am I missing something? Or the owners of those units had seriously invested in additional renovations like golden bidets to justify the premium? There isn't a lot of liquidity in these high end units and its hard to compare.

I guess I should look at Four Seasons as well, but there are no large 2bedroom units on the market right now, same with One Bedford.
17 replies
Deal Fanatic
Feb 22, 2011
5932 posts
5648 upvotes
Toronto
The market is segmented where houses are hurting because of a decrease in affordability and availability of credit. Conversely condos are benefiting greatly as people are pushed down the property ladder. Condos in Toronto have only 1.7 months of inventory and are at an all time high in prices.

In recent history they have been at ~57% the value of houses so reverting back to this price difference is not unprecedented.

The question now becomes once they hit that median price ratio and still have very limited inventory how many people will opt to go up the property ladder;

Image
Deal Addict
Mar 22, 2010
2310 posts
493 upvotes
Wow.. some people are just so rich. I thought $900 per sq.ft. was expensive.
Member
Mar 6, 2017
268 posts
135 upvotes
deepzerg wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 12:19 am
I've been looking at some high end condos namely, Yorkville Private Estates, One Bloor West, Museum House and One Bedford.

There are currently 2 units for sale at Museum House:
C4043016 facing North is 1942 sqrt feet at 1.8k psf
C4032534 facing South is 2542 sqrt feet at 1.7k psf

South views are substantially better because you get to see the city, North views you see the Annex.

Maintenance is roughly 1.55 psf.

Historical Price sold (according to http://dylandonovan.ca/luxury-condos/museum-house/):
Nov 17 @1.56k psf for South View
May 17 @1.17k psf for North View
June 16 @0.95k psf for South View

If we assume May last year was the peak, doesn't this suggest both listings are grossly overpriced?

Doesn't this suggest a fair price of 1.1k psf for the North facing unit, and maybe 1.3k psf for the South facing unit? Or am I missing something? Or the owners of those units had seriously invested in additional renovations like golden bidets to justify the premium? There isn't a lot of liquidity in these high end units and its hard to compare.

I guess I should look at Four Seasons as well, but there are no large 2bedroom units on the market right now, same with One Bedford.
Luxury homes in suburbs like Markham, Vaughan, etc... you can apply those drops your mentioning. Luxury condos in Yorkville are different. You can't even compare them to regular condos in downtown. Even pre construction builders are going 2000+ per square foot for the large luxury units.

I honestly believe you'd get a bidding war if any building less than 10 years old went for 1000 per square foot in yorkville.

Rich people love Yorkville and there's really not that many large luxury penthouse type suites available just like you mentioned
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes
dpacto wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 8:57 am
Luxury homes in suburbs like Markham, Vaughan, etc... you can apply those drops your mentioning. Luxury condos in Yorkville are different. You can't even compare them to regular condos in downtown. Even pre construction builders are going 2000+ per square foot for the large luxury units.

I honestly believe you'd get a bidding war if any building less than 10 years old went for 1000 per square foot in yorkville.

Rich people love Yorkville and there's really not that many large luxury penthouse type suites available just like you mentioned
So what you're saying is that Yorkville Condos have not only not dropped from last May, but also increased from last May?

Also, rmb that the maintenance is 1.55 psf, so you're paying close to 30k+ condo fees every yr, which should affect its value somewhat, no?
Member
Mar 6, 2017
268 posts
135 upvotes
deepzerg wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 10:26 am
So what you're saying is that Yorkville Condos have not only not dropped from last May, but also increased from last May?

Also, rmb that the maintenance is 1.55 psf, so you're paying close to 30k+ condo fees every yr, which should affect its value somewhat, no?
museum house has only 30 units and they're all 1500 square feet plus, they have valet parking and the elevators open directly to your unit $1.55 psf is extremely reasonable. Even if it doubled to 60k per year that doesn't have the same affect for these type of units. People buying $3-5 million condos aren't concerned about $1.55 psf vs $0.80 psf

The One maintenance fee is about $1 psf plus $500 per month for valet parking so assume when the one gets to the age of museum house it will be the same thing

I'm not saying you won't get a yorkville condo for $1.1k per square foot but the past sales don't show that trend but going forward it's unpredictable right now but if you look at houses in the core they're not really dropping in price either compared to the suburbs.
Deal Fanatic
Feb 9, 2009
7866 posts
4830 upvotes
dpacto wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 11:28 am
museum house has only 30 units and they're all 1500 square feet plus, they have valet parking and the elevators open directly to your unit $1.55 psf is extremely reasonable. Even if it doubled to 60k per year that doesn't have the same affect for these type of units. People buying $3-5 million condos aren't concerned about $1.55 psf vs $0.80 psf

The One maintenance fee is about $1 psf plus $500 per month for valet parking so assume when the one gets to the age of museum house it will be the same thing

I'm not saying you won't get a yorkville condo for $1.1k per square foot but the past sales don't show that trend but going forward it's unpredictable right now but if you look at houses in the core they're not really dropping in price either compared to the suburbs.
Exactly these condos are about privacy... the top dogs of Toronto buy here, not your typical 9 to 5 Joe Schmoe.
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes
dpacto wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 11:28 am
museum house has only 30 units and they're all 1500 square feet plus, they have valet parking and the elevators open directly to your unit $1.55 psf is extremely reasonable. Even if it doubled to 60k per year that doesn't have the same affect for these type of units. People buying $3-5 million condos aren't concerned about $1.55 psf vs $0.80 psf

The One maintenance fee is about $1 psf plus $500 per month for valet parking so assume when the one gets to the age of museum house it will be the same thing

I'm not saying you won't get a yorkville condo for $1.1k per square foot but the past sales don't show that trend but going forward it's unpredictable right now but if you look at houses in the core they're not really dropping in price either compared to the suburbs.
Thanks. So what you're saying is that despite May 2017 being priced at 1.2k psf (North view) and Nov 2017 at 1.6k psf (South view) -- prices have only gone up since then?
Member
Jan 15, 2010
372 posts
269 upvotes
Toronto
deepzerg wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 12:01 pm
Thanks. So what you're saying is that despite May 2017 being priced at 1.2k psf (North view) and Nov 2017 at 1.6k psf (South view) -- prices have only gone up since then?
Condo prices have barely dropped, if at all since May. In many areas they have risen. Can you take a look at other nearby building to compare Jan 18 numbers vs. May 17 numbers. Your building should follow a similar price trend.
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes
DaMan12 wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 1:52 pm
Condo prices have barely dropped, if at all since May. In many areas they have risen. Can you take a look at other nearby building to compare Jan 18 numbers vs. May 17 numbers. Your building should follow a similar price trend.
Ah, then I made a mistake. I was under the faulty assumption the whole high end market was down since last May. My understanding was only the affordable condos (i.e., studios and 1 bedrooms) didnt change in price. I need to do more research, so what you're saying is that even high end condos have increased in price over the last year.

However, I still think the listing is over priced... it went from:
1.2k psf (May 17) to 1.8k psf (Today) for North views.
Banned
Feb 23, 2009
1670 posts
1495 upvotes
Oshawa
Some places are more popular than others and will get a premium.
There is nothing stopping someone from selling something at any price they want.
If somebody is stupid enough to over-pay, party on!
Deal Fanatic
Mar 15, 2005
5316 posts
872 upvotes
This location, condo and pricing is very clearly in the luxury segment. What happens in the traditional market is not necessarily reflected in the luxury market.

ie Yachts probably weren't any cheaper in the 2008 meltdown in the US.
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes
Ziggy007 wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 3:54 pm
This location, condo and pricing is very clearly in the luxury segment. What happens in the traditional market is not necessarily reflected in the luxury market.

ie Yachts probably weren't any cheaper in the 2008 meltdown in the US.
I actually disagree -- I don't know about Yachts per say, but personal jets / aircraft definitely went on huge discounts during the meltdown.

So is the consensus that the luxury market and low end 1bedroom condos have actually increased in price over the last yr, and only detached homes and dropped in price?
Jr. Member
Apr 15, 2009
130 posts
154 upvotes
toronto
Proper use:

per se
ˌpər ˈsā/
adverb
by or in itself or themselves; intrinsically.
"it is not these facts per se that are important"

Carry on now.
deepzerg wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 5:34 pm
I actually disagree -- I don't know about Yachts per say, but ...
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
80 posts
19 upvotes
mstefa wrote:
Feb 23rd, 2018 9:47 pm
Proper use:

per se
ˌpər ˈsā/
adverb
by or in itself or themselves; intrinsically.
"it is not these facts per se that are important"

Carry on now.
TIL!

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