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Locked: The Muslim world must confront the underlying problems in Islamic theology

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A private forum is outside the scope of the limits of freedom of speech in Canada. But keep trying to sound righteous, maybe someday you'll stumble into being correct.
Last edited by titaniumtux on Nov 7th, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mr_raider wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 8:57 am
That is incorrect. Faith based organizations and communities exist in developed countries and have not gone away. If anything it's stronger than ever in the US. If religion was on the decline there would have been a hell of a lot less people in that Texas church on Sunday, and no kids. The only difference is that people have chosen to ignore or reinterpret scripture as they see fit for their daily lives. In other words they hold on to the touchy feely love thy neighbour stuff, but have given up the stone the adulteress parts.
I can't believe, after a completely reasonable post, you've chosen to ignore mountains of data in favour of a single anecdote. The fact that religion is in rapid decline doesn't mean that any given church is going have "fewer" people than were actually there. For all we know, there might have been twice the people in that same church 20 years ago.

Here's a good snapshot, mostly of developed nations:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-zuc ... 89398.html

And here's more detail on the US, including breakdowns by age, specifically showing very low religiosity among the young:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ous-nones/
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dec12 wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 7:04 am
Maybe the billions and billions followers of the Abrahamic religions can explain this.

I have a mental illness if I can hear God's voice.
I have a mental illness if I believe in another person's ability to hear God's voice.
But, I am normal if I believe in ancient books that recorded instances of people hearing God's voice?
No, they think they can hear God's voice, without necessarily being mentally ill.
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i6s1 wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 9:55 am
I can't believe, after a completely reasonable post, you've chosen to ignore mountains of data in favour of a single anecdote. The fact that religion is in rapid decline doesn't mean that any given church is going have "fewer" people than were actually there. For all we know, there might have been twice the people in that same church 20 years ago.

Here's a good snapshot, mostly of developed nations:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-zuc ... 89398.html

And here's more detail on the US, including breakdowns by age, specifically showing very low religiosity among the young:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ous-nones/
Your data can be interpreted two ways, either young people are giving up religion, or people get more religious as they age:

Image

Plus that data ignores the rise of religion in particular regions and segments of society. There is a reason identity politics and gay/transgender issues play so well in the SOuth and SOuthwest US. There is a reason politicians invoke the Lord, or people thank God at every turn in public discourse. Piety plays well with the electorate.

Here is the statement by the guy who took down the texas shooter:

“I’m no hero. I am not. I think, my God — my Lord — protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done,” he said. “I just wish I could’ve gotten there faster.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 21f4681b10
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mr_raider wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 10:52 am
Your data can be interpreted two ways, either young people are giving up religion, or people get more religious as they age:
If people got more religious as they age (today's millennials will be as religious later in life as today's boomers) then there wouldn't be a clear decline in religiosity overall. If anything, there would be a small uptick, since (I think) boomers outnumber millennials. So it doesn't look like the age effect is the best explanation for the decline in religion, since it wouldn't predict a decline in religion overall unless the less-religious younger demographic starts representing a larger overall share of the population.

It could very well be that people get more religious as they age, but that could be a minor effect compared to how much less religious young people are today.
mr_raider wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 10:52 am
Plus that data ignores the rise of religion in particular regions and segments of society. There is a reason identity politics and gay/transgender issues play so well in the SOuth and SOuthwest US. There is a reason politicians invoke the Lord, or people thank God at every turn in public discourse. Piety plays well with the electorate.

Here is the statement by the guy who took down the texas shooter:

“I’m no hero. I am not. I think, my God — my Lord — protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done,” he said. “I just wish I could’ve gotten there faster.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 21f4681b10
I'm sorry... you know that the existence of religious people does absolutely nothing to disprove the fact that religion is declining? Yes, religion is still important to a lot of people. Yes, there are still a lot of Christians in Texas. But it looks like religion is declining there as well. This is all I could find, but it shows an increase in "Unclaimed by any faith."

http://texasalmanac.com/topics/religion ... tion-texas
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sandikosh wrote:
Nov 6th, 2017 3:39 pm
What about Christian Ideology? Why are Christian countries in the Arab world? What are they doing?
There is nothing unusual about Christianity being in the so-called "Arab world". There's obviously lots of overlap between the 3 Abrahamic religions, as they were all born in the same part of the world.

Go to Jerusalem, where 300 feet away from the Western Wall (one of the holiest places for Jews) is the Al-Aqsa mosque (one of the holiest places for Muslims), and 300 feet in the other direction is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (ditto for Christians).

It's actually an incredibly interesting place to visit. Although make sure there's no intifada in progress before you do.
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You don't think that the boomers, the peace and love revolution stick it the man change society generation should be less religious than 80%? I'm even surprised that my generation (x?) Is so attached to faith.

There is an age effect, IMHO. The millenials currently outnumber boomers so their weight is more pronounced. But I'd be curious to revisit these people in their 50s when they have seen their parents die and are confronted with their own declining health.


Convincing people to give up religion won't work. We've been worshipping higher powers for 5000 years. The religions have changed over time, but not peoples need to believe has not.

A far more constructive route would be try and integrate religious people into society so that they may be productive and useful, while still living within the laws of the land. That is the issue where Islam gets problematic as there are forces that are trying to reverse this adaptation.

Once you understand these forces, and geopolitics behind them, then only can you get a handle on Islamic fundamentalism.
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mr_raider wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 12:45 pm
You don't think that the boomers, the peace and love revolution stick it the man change society generation should be less religious than 80%? I'm even surprised that my generation (x?) Is so attached to faith.

There is an age effect, IMHO. The millenials currently outnumber boomers so their weight is more pronounced. But I'd be curious to revisit these people in their 50s when they have seen their parents die and are confronted with their own declining health.


Convincing people to give up religion won't work. We've been worshipping higher powers for 5000 years. The religions have changed over time, but not peoples need to believe has not.

A far more constructive route would be try and integrate religious people into society so that they may be productive and useful, while still living within the laws of the land. That is the issue where Islam gets problematic as there are forces that are trying to reverse this adaptation.

Once you understand these forces, and geopolitics behind them, then only can you get a handle on Islamic fundamentalism.
Understanding Islamic fundamentalism is not the issue at hand. What we need to get a handle on...to come to terms with...is that the Islam, as practiced by many Muslims, even those in the West, is incompatible with Western, liberal and modern values. One need only reflect on polls to observe this. Polls which showed, for example, that the overwhelming majority of British Muslims think homosexuality is immoral while 50% think it should be illegal. Another found that about 1/3 believed suicide bombings could be justifiable and a similar fraction held sympathy for the Carlie Hebdo killers; more believed printing cartoons of Muhammed should be illegal. That is the problem...the Islam that is practiced by Muslims is the problem. The tragedy is that it has been imported and exported en masse throughout the world. The problems of Islam have, therefore, become everyone's problems, and at a time when Western leaders have become too insecure to state the superiority of Western liberal values.

But i can predict your response already...you won't challenge me to provide links to polls, like some on here, you will just claim there are no western values and you will default back to the lovely sentiment that those are cultural issues not related to Islam. For you, like many others, believe that nothing Muslims do in the name of Islam has anything to do with Islam itself.
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silky28 wrote:
Nov 7th, 2017 10:42 pm
Understanding Islamic fundamentalism is not the issue at hand. What we need to get a handle on...to come to terms with...is that the Islam, as practiced by many Muslims, even those in the West, is incompatible with Western, liberal and modern values.
So is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and a host of other systems of believe. No religion is particularly tolerant of divorce, abortion, homosexuality and all are heavily patriarchal, and not supportive of gender equality. The problem isn't the religion. The fact of the matter is that most Christians and Jews simply disregard the tenets of their faith that they consider problematic. They simply do not care for their religion to the same extent. This was a slow trend in Islam for several hundred years, but it's being reversed IMHO, where people who choose to disregard this or that element in religion are branded as disbelievers.

One need only reflect on polls to observe this. Polls which showed, for example, that the overwhelming majority of British Muslims think homosexuality is immoral while 50% think it should be illegal.
Look at the numbers (from your own Pew)

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-lands ... sexuality/

Evangelicals, Mormons, African AMerican protestants are even less tolerant than Muslims of homosexuality. Yet no one denies them their right to practice their faith. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Another found that about 1/3 believed suicide bombings could be justifiable and a similar fraction held sympathy for the Carlie Hebdo killers; more believed printing cartoons of Muhammed should be illegal.


Any socially disadvantaged group will harbor resentment towards authority. The key here is you are quoting UK data where Muslims are poorer sub class of society. This does not hold true in North AMerica, where Muslims have done much better:


US Muslims have a high rate of satisfaction:

Image


83% of Canadian Muslims are proud to be Canadian (page 7 of the pdf)

http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uplo ... report.pdf

Muslims are far more educated in North america than anywhere else:

Image


Muslims in the US have a level of education 2nd only to Jews:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/muslims-united-states


There is little evidence to show Muslims in the US support extremism, with no support for suicide bombings:

Image

Muslims are as likely as Christians to identify with their faith before their nation:

Image


But i can predict your response already...you won't challenge me to provide links to polls, like some on here, you will just claim there are no western values and you will default back to the lovely sentiment that those are cultural issues not related to Islam. For you, like many others, believe that nothing Muslims do in the name of Islam has anything to do with Islam itself.
No dude. I have given you data from teh same PEw research you love to quote. Muslims in North America do not have the same issues as in the UK. The question then must be asked, what is the difference? The way I see it, the Uk imported en masse less educated cheap labor, huddled them up in ghettos, treated them as 2nd class citizens, and now they are developping the same social problems that Black or Hispanic communities in inner American cities have. In North America they have been afforded adequate opportunity, education, social mobility and job prospects and they have done as well or better than the general population, and are probably no more or no less religious than most Protestants.
or you, like many others, believe that nothing Muslims do in the name of Islam has anything to do with Islam itself.
I have no tolerance for double standards. When Muslims do something their faith gets called out, yet when Christians or whatever exhibit the same behaviours, they get a pass? Why is Muslim who goes regularly to mosque a radical, but a Christian who attends church on Sunday considered pious or even good?

The bar I hold Muslims to is the same bar I hold any citizen too: if you work, pay your taxes, respect the laws, and exercise your right to vote, you are good enough in my book. That is my only criticism of Muslims. They are less likely to vote, particularly young people.
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mr_raider wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 11:26 am
So is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and a host of other systems of believe. No religion is particularly tolerant of divorce, abortion, homosexuality and all are heavily patriarchal, and not supportive of gender equality. The problem isn't the religion. The fact of the matter is that most Christians and Jews simply disregard the tenets of their faith that they consider problematic. They simply do not care for their religion to the same extent. This was a slow trend in Islam for several hundred years, but it's being reversed IMHO, where people who choose to disregard this or that element in religion are branded as disbelievers.




Look at the numbers (from your own Pew)

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-lands ... sexuality/

Evangelicals, Mormons, African AMerican protestants are even less tolerant than Muslims of homosexuality. Yet no one denies them their right to practice their faith. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.




Any socially disadvantaged group will harbor resentment towards authority. The key here is you are quoting UK data where Muslims are poorer sub class of society. This does not hold true in North AMerica, where Muslims have done much better:


US Muslims have a high rate of satisfaction:

Image


83% of Canadian Muslims are proud to be Canadian (page 7 of the pdf)

http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uplo ... report.pdf

Muslims are far more educated in North america than anywhere else:

Image


Muslims in the US have a level of education 2nd only to Jews:

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/muslims-united-states


There is little evidence to show Muslims in the US support extremism, with no support for suicide bombings:

Image

Muslims are as likely as Christians to identify with their faith before their nation:

Image





No dude. I have given you data from teh same PEw research you love to quote. Muslims in North America do not have the same issues as in the UK. The question then must be asked, what is the difference? The way I see it, the Uk imported en masse less educated cheap labor, huddled them up in ghettos, treated them as 2nd class citizens, and now they are developping the same social problems that Black or Hispanic communities in inner American cities have. In North America they have been afforded adequate opportunity, education, social mobility and job prospects and they have done as well or better than the general population, and are probably no more or no less religious than most Protestants.



I have no tolerance for double standards. When Muslims do something their faith gets called out, yet when Christians or whatever exhibit the same behaviours, they get a pass? Why is Muslim who goes regularly to mosque a radical, but a Christian who attends church on Sunday considered pious or even good?

The bar I hold Muslims to is the same bar I hold any citizen too: if you work, pay your taxes, respect the laws, and exercise your right to vote, you are good enough in my book. That is my only criticism of Muslims. They are less likely to vote, particularly young people.
The graph you showed actually suggests Christians equally identify as Christian and American.

It also shows Muslims overwhelmingly identify as Muslim and by half as much "American".

Monumental difference, despite the spin attempt, if this sample is in any way indicative of the population.

tl;dr, more pressure needs to be put on them to assimilate, and the coddling needs to cease.
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AndySixx wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 1:04 pm
tl;dr, more pressure needs to be put on them to assimilate, and the coddling needs to cease.
I don't believe that pressure to assimilate really ever works.

Perhaps these "Muslim first" individuals could instead select a country that better aligns with the "Muslim first" mentality. It would make the most sense.
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peanutz wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 1:09 pm
I don't believe that pressure to assimilate really ever works.

Perhaps these "Muslim first" individuals could instead select a country that better aligns with the "Muslim first" mentality. It would make the most sense.
It does, we know this because of how Christians adapted. It wasn't to placating them the way Muslims are by leftists.

Don't get me wrong, they shouldn't be bashed for *being* Muslim either. They should be simply more forcefully compelled socially -- assimilate or go the hell back.

It's been clear with all the refugees and wanton disregard in the EU for vetting migrants from MENA that doing things this way causes fewer migrants to assimilate, have a far harder time handling issues like culture shock, have less of a system to push them culturally in the direction they're supposed to move when immigrating elsewhere. They feel entitled to get their way, and lash out. It's just one way extremism gets propagated. They look around for others they can socialize with, those people are bad apples.. the seed is planted.

A strong national culture will help bring this sort of issue to the forefront in an individual. A politically correct cucked globalist culture like what's permeating the west causes people to look the other way.. an enabler of the problem these people are fleeing from. Effectively importing it.
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AndySixx wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 1:04 pm
The graph you showed actually suggests Christians equally identify as Christian and American.

It also shows Muslims overwhelmingly identify as Muslim and by half as much "American".

Monumental difference, despite the spin attempt, if this sample is in any way indicative of the population.

tl;dr, more pressure needs to be put on them to assimilate, and the coddling needs to cease.
Now you're picking nits. If you add up America first and both equally, you get 52% for Christians, and 44% for Muslims. That's an 8% spread, well within the margin of error for this type of survey. Last I checked identifying with your religion is not treason. Plenty of immigrants are strongly attached to their cultural heritage, and having different identities or heritages is no issue AFAIK. And this data is the subset of people which "identify with a religion". You have excluded those who do not identify with a faith, and those people are automatically less religious.


Christians had no adaptation to undergo, the wrote the damn constitution and all the laws. Being a Christian is the essence of being American, since the US is a Gof fearing nation.


How valid is this data? I have no idea, but it was intended for the previous poster who hurls the Pew foundation data for UK Muslims at me everytime I bend down to tie my shoelaces. I just mined the same web site he does.
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lack of education is to blame, not religion.

when you are uneducated and blindly listen/follow someone/something/some religion, it leads to exploitation

stop blaming religion, start blaming on education
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sexyj wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 4:31 pm
lack of education is to blame, not religion.

when you are uneducated and blindly listen/follow someone/something/some religion, it leads to exploitation

stop blaming religion, start blaming on education
It's not an either/or question. You can oppose religion while simultaneously supporting education.

For example, and taxpayer funding of religious schools. Education is improved because no class time is spent being indoctrinated with ancient myths, leaving more time for learning things that are both true and useful.

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