Off Topic Archive

Locked: The Muslim world must confront the underlying problems in Islamic theology

Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
16467 posts
1764 upvotes
Montreal
karakoram wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 7:13 pm
history isn't your forte.

taliban blueprints were created by cia with house of saud backing and other nations. pak being a broke country provided mercenary services. goal accomplished by defeating soviets in afg.

you're deluded if you think war in afg is "war on terror". along with opium, they're fighting over mining rights. americans will stay indefinitely due to strategic significance of that region. conveniently keeps iran, pakistan and china in check
I'm fully aware of the US and Saudi contributions to the creation of the Taliban.
Moderator
User avatar
May 8, 2009
1855 posts
502 upvotes
45.420833°N, 75.69°W
Mylocosta wrote:
Nov 8th, 2017 8:30 pm
Wow another thread on Islam by someone who isn't Muslim... Don't you have anything better to do then post about Muslims. I look down the off topic all I see is locked threads usually about Islam or Muslims. If you guys want to have a serious talk on Islam why don't we organize a day and have a conversation in person with actual scholars drinking a nice cup of tea.
Moderators watch these threads closely. I'd be game to discuss and challenge scholars. These threads are more interested in discussing incidents in the news for the most part.
iflyplanes wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 12:05 am
Like the scholars calling for the death of Jews, the rape of western women, or the subjagation of Europe? Sort of ironic that you mention the opinions of scholars in this thread.

Sources:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ ... -1.4209384

https://clarionproject.org/imam-warns-w ... -be-raped/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/breed-and ... s-muslims/
+1

These scholars would be wrong in saying anything that contradicts their scriptures.

I'm sure there are other forums for Q&A's with scholars, looks like RFD isn't one of them.
mr_raider wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 7:58 am
Behold: the no true scotsman fallacy

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
+1
lubmar wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 10:07 am
conversation in person with actual scholars ? - no thanks

I believe that this article was written by a Pakistani muslim ... probably not a islamic scholar, not sure guessing (and maybe that is one of the reasons this article make sense ... ) ...

btw the title should be more like "The Muslim and 'western' world must confront the underlying problems in Islamic theology" ...
Agreed. Much of Western media is somehow taken my Stockholm syndrome.
Mylocosta wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 7:45 pm
Muslims want the death to Jews? I am Muslim and think of the Jews as our cousin religion. The only issue that I can think of is the whole Palestine situation as a source of anger. If anyone wants to kill Jews it's the Europeans from what i heard they killed a whole bunch of them not long ago. As for the rapes that have happened yes there have been situations when Muslims have commuted such acts but you can't say all Muslims are like that. There are people from different religions and countries guilty of this unfortunately.
We are grateful for your contributions to these threads.

On the topic of anti-Semitism...
  • In Europe, if you're referring to the Inquisition, that was a backlash to a long period of Islamic occupation of Iberia and persecution of Christians. I admit that giving the Jews the boot was most likely unwarranted, but there's much of history we don't know (I don't know the fine print of who collaborated with who). We could also argue that Muslims invading Iberia were in the wrong in the first place, but sure, strike against Spain for kicking out the Jews a real long time back.
  • Third Reich. Adolf was good friends with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He recruited Bosnian Muslim soldiers and expressed that he wished Germany were Muslim. Mein Kampf is now a best seller in many Islamic countries. Strike against Germany (at least Hitler) for anti-Semitism. To be fair, strike against Hitler for countless things. Still doesn't justify anti-Semitism, nor should the Western world turn a blind eye to trends in the Islamic world.
  • You mention recently in Europe...since WWII and cold war? Pray tell about these events.
  • Your personal opinion: that's nice, and certainly not a reflection of Islamic society as a whole
  • Your mention of rape is irrelevant to anti-Semitism, but I'll comment. There are good and bad people in all demographics. It becomes a concern when you have disproportionately high numbers of "bad people" in certain groups.
You're welcome to be a Muslim yet love Jews. I do not judge you based on what you choose to believe, and am glad to hear that you do not feel negativily towards Jews. However, we know that Islam's feelings towards Judaism extends far past the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Yes, I've fallen to Godwin's law, but heck, quite relevant to the discussion.

This is to reaffirm the thread's title. It's a good idea for Muslims to deep-dive into their theology to discover why is it that a disproportionately high number of their adherents engage in activities that the vast majority of non-Muslims would perceive as criminal.

We could argue that it's good for people of every faith to deep-dive their beliefs (or lack thereof), but that's a red herring since the thread's focus is on Islam.
Motorola phone. Linux on 2xcomputers. Brew beer & wine @home.
Home service reseller internet + FPL + antenna with streaming on smart TV
Wireless 1 line w/ Virgin on QC plan, few lines w/ Koodo to get phones, couple FreedomPop SIM's for roaming
Newbie
Jan 30, 2017
78 posts
4 upvotes
titaniumtux wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 9:25 pm
Moderators watch these threads closely. I'd be game to discuss and challenge scholars. These threads are more interested in discussing incidents in the news for the most part.


+1

These scholars would be wrong in saying anything that contradicts their scriptures.

I'm sure there are other forums for Q&A's with scholars, looks like RFD isn't one of them.


+1


Agreed. Much of Western media is somehow taken my Stockholm syndrome.


We are grateful for your contributions to these threads.

On the topic of anti-Semitism...
  • In Europe, if you're referring to the Inquisition, that was a backlash to a long period of Islamic occupation of Iberia and persecution of Christians. I admit that giving the Jews the boot was most likely unwarranted, but there's much of history we don't know (I don't know the fine print of who collaborated with who). We could also argue that Muslims invading Iberia were in the wrong in the first place, but sure, strike against Spain for kicking out the Jews a real long time back.
  • Third Reich. Adolf was good friends with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He recruited Bosnian Muslim soldiers and expressed that he wished Germany were Muslim. Mein Kampf is now a best seller in many Islamic countries. Strike against Germany (at least Hitler) for anti-Semitism. To be fair, strike against Hitler for countless things. Still doesn't justify anti-Semitism, nor should the Western world turn a blind eye to trends in the Islamic world.
  • You mention recently in Europe...since WWII and cold war? Pray tell about these events.
  • Your personal opinion: that's nice, and certainly not a reflection of Islamic society as a whole
  • Your mention of rape is irrelevant to anti-Semitism, but I'll comment. There are good and bad people in all demographics. It becomes a concern when you have disproportionately high numbers of "bad people" in certain groups.
You're welcome to be a Muslim yet love Jews. I do not judge you based on what you choose to believe, and am glad to hear that you do not feel negativily towards Jews. However, we know that Islam's feelings towards Judaism extends far past the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Yes, I've fallen to Godwin's law, but heck, quite relevant to the discussion.

This is to reaffirm the thread's title. It's a good idea for Muslims to deep-dive into their theology to discover why is it that a disproportionately high number of their adherents engage in activities that the vast majority of non-Muslims would perceive as criminal.

We could argue that it's good for people of every faith to deep-dive their beliefs (or lack thereof), but that's a red herring since the thread's focus is on Islam.
My opinion isn't a reflection on Islam as a whole but i guess yours is.
There is a disproportionately high number of bad people in my faith? Really we are about 1.6 billion on earth what's the number of them being bad? And as far as Adolf and the mufti of Jerusalem being close friends what does that have to do with him killing all those Jews? Was it the mufti's idea? Ironically Palestine pre world war 1 and world war 2 seemed to be relatively peaceful compared to now. And yes there are many people antisemitic in the Islamic faith but so too are there many in other faiths. As a moderator with the ability to lock and shut down threads I would sure hope for that person to be less biased.
Moderator
User avatar
May 8, 2009
1855 posts
502 upvotes
45.420833°N, 75.69°W
Mylocosta wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 9:49 pm
My opinion isn't a reflection on Islam as a whole but i guess yours is.
There is a disproportionately high number of bad people in my faith? Really we are about 1.6 billion on earth what's the number of them being bad? And as far as Adolf and the mufti of Jerusalem being close friends what does that have to do with him killing all those Jews? Was it the mufti's idea? Ironically Palestine pre world war 1 and world war 2 seemed to be relatively peaceful compared to now. And yes there are many people antisemitic in the Islamic faith but so too are there many in other faiths. As a moderator with the ability to lock and shut down threads I would sure hope for that person to be less biased.
My opinions don't reflect RFD and moderation must be done without bias.

You say Palestine was peaceful prior to the world wars, but that was prior to the "Jewish state", so who did they have to fight?

Never said it was the Mufti's idea. Point is, Adolf had a grand Islamic scholar to fist-bump over mutual opinions.

You're using the same argument as before, that there are good and bad apples in all baskets. The concern is that there is a much larger proportion of Muslim anti-Semites and that act on their anti-Semitism than in any other group. If a fifth of the world's population is Muslim, yet nine out of ten of those who express anti-Semitic actions are Muslim, we have an issue.

I do admit it's quite possible that a majority of Muslims may be moderate, and may not be anti-Semetic. I do believe there are many "good Muslims", but this does not negate the disproportionately high number of Muslims who don't share your views. Hence the thread suggesting we turn to the sources :D
Motorola phone. Linux on 2xcomputers. Brew beer & wine @home.
Home service reseller internet + FPL + antenna with streaming on smart TV
Wireless 1 line w/ Virgin on QC plan, few lines w/ Koodo to get phones, couple FreedomPop SIM's for roaming
Banned
Aug 2, 2017
1219 posts
120 upvotes
Logtown
I mean, anecdotally I know very well how much Muslims hate us Jews. Not to mention how prevalent in western countries they adopt the concept of taqiyya. I've seen this concept in action so many times from Muslims who realized that honesty about their antisemitism isn't going to help them eradicate us.

That post of "its not us its the Europeans! Smiling Face With Sunglasses" was pretty funny, but should also be concerning.

Here's a good example of views of us worldwide:

http://global100.adl.org/
https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases ... -countries

You can see throughout MENA the anti-semitism is rife in 70-100% of Muslims.

In Europe the trend among Muslims there continues as well, with at minimum majorities who both hate Jews and involve themselves in anti-Jew conspiracies.
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
16467 posts
1764 upvotes
Montreal
titaniumtux wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 9:25 pm
On the topic of anti-Semitism...
  • In Europe, if you're referring to the Inquisition, that was a backlash to a long period of Islamic occupation of Iberia and persecution of Christians. I admit that giving the Jews the boot was most likely unwarranted, but there's much of history we don't know (I don't know the fine print of who collaborated with who). We could also argue that Muslims invading Iberia were in the wrong in the first place, but sure, strike against Spain for kicking out the Jews a real long time back.
One of my favorite questions is always what happened in 1492? The not obvious answer is that the Reconquista was completed and the first thing the Spanish did was enact teh Alhambra decree which expelled Jews from the kingdom.

[*]Third Reich. Adolf was good friends with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He recruited Bosnian Muslim soldiers and expressed that he wished Germany were Muslim. Mein Kampf is now a best seller in many Islamic countries. Strike against Germany (at least Hitler) for anti-Semitism. To be fair, strike against Hitler for countless things. Still doesn't justify anti-Semitism, nor should the Western world turn a blind eye to trends in the Islamic world.
Hitler was also allied with the Japanese, and I mean really allied, unlike the Mufti of Jerusalem. Is anyone accusing the Japanese of anti-semitism? I would also remind you Hitler was allied with the Italians, who showed their appreciation for Muslims by invading North Africa. BTW, most arabs from the Mediterranean are semites.

[*]Your personal opinion: that's nice, and certainly not a reflection of Islamic society as a whole
Now we are playing the same fallacy: muslims are anti-semites; but I'm a muslim and not an anti-semite, good for you but you are not a real muslim

This fails the logic test. You call on Muslims to reform. You are presented with a Muslim who rejects the less evolved aspects of the faith and tries to be progressive, and then you dismiss his opinion?

BTW there is no "Islamic society as a whole", any more than a Christian society. The Islamic world is as complex as it is diverse, with ethnic, cultural political and religious issues intertwined. To reduce it all to religion is a gross simplification. I urge you again to read the links on the rise of Salafism and how it was related to the Ottoman occupation and Arab nationalism.

This is to reaffirm the thread's title. It's a good idea for Muslims to deep-dive into their theology to discover why is it that a disproportionately high number of their adherents engage in activities that the vast majority of non-Muslims would perceive as criminal.
Muslims engage disproportionately in criminal activity? How about homicide?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate


Notice how central/south america and the Carribean dominate the list?
Moderator
User avatar
May 8, 2009
1855 posts
502 upvotes
45.420833°N, 75.69°W
mr_raider wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 7:52 am
One of my favorite questions is always what happened in 1492? The not obvious answer is that the Reconquista was completed and the first thing the Spanish did was enact teh Alhambra decree which expelled Jews from the kingdom.




Hitler was also allied with the Japanese, and I mean really allied, unlike the Mufti of Jerusalem. Is anyone accusing the Japanese of anti-semitism? I would also remind you Hitler was allied with the Italians, who showed their appreciation for Muslims by invading North Africa. BTW, most arabs from the Mediterranean are semites.




Now we are playing the same fallacy: muslims are anti-semites; but I'm a muslim and not an anti-semite, good for you but you are not a real muslim

This fails the logic test. You call on Muslims to reform. You are presented with a Muslim who rejects the less evolved aspects of the faith and tries to be progressive, and then you dismiss his opinion?

BTW there is no "Islamic society as a whole", any more than a Christian society. The Islamic world is as complex as it is diverse, with ethnic, cultural political and religious issues intertwined. To reduce it all to religion is a gross simplification. I urge you again to read the links on the rise of Salafism and how it was related to the Ottoman occupation and Arab nationalism.




Muslims engage disproportionately in criminal activity? How about homicide?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate


Notice how central/south america and the Carribean dominate the list?
WWII is multi-dimentional and not all friends in war share all common enemies. How many Jews live in Japan? Probably not many aside diplomats. As for Spain, not sure what happened in 1942. Spain was supposedly not allied with anyone in WWII (friends with the Germans, but geographically too close to France). As for North African Arabs, are you suggesting that they themselves are of Jewish ancestry? I think we cannot ignore the post-WWII phenomenon where many North African countries slaughtered Jews left, right and centre and increased persecution since they were enraged of the decision to give Israel to the Jews. There used to be many Jews living in North Africa, and now there are few (most in Morocco I think). I travelled to Morocco and when the locals wanted to insult me, they called me a Jew.

As for the True Scotsman Fallacy, I'm not saying @Mylocosta is not a true Muslim. Rather, I am saying that too many Muslims, whether "true Muslims" or not, sadly don't share @Mylocosta 's brotherly love towards Jews. I will go as far as including all self-declared Muslims as Muslims, even if they don't pray or fast.

Not going to disregard the insanely high crime rates in certain parts of Latin America. To be fair, some parts of Latin America (Uruguay, Panama, etc.) are very safe (even by Western standards). We can see a different trend in Latin America. The common denominator is not religion (otherwise Ireland, Poland and Portugal would be the for most dangerous parts of Europe). Latin America has drug trafficking, collapsing governments with no accountability, etc. Heck, that could warrant its own thread.
Motorola phone. Linux on 2xcomputers. Brew beer & wine @home.
Home service reseller internet + FPL + antenna with streaming on smart TV
Wireless 1 line w/ Virgin on QC plan, few lines w/ Koodo to get phones, couple FreedomPop SIM's for roaming
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
16467 posts
1764 upvotes
Montreal
titaniumtux wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 8:31 am
As for the True Scotsman Fallacy, I'm not saying @Mylocosta is not a true Muslim. Rather, I am saying that too many Muslims, whether "true Muslims" or not, sadly don't share @Mylocosta 's brotherly love towards Jews.
Don't confuse Arab with Muslim. Christian Lebanese hate jews as much as Muslim Lebanese for historical reasons. Plenty of Christian Palestinians won't have anything nice to say about Israel. Conversely, Bengali or Indonesian Muslims couldn't care less about Jews and most could not find Israel on a map. Again, all Muslims do not form a homogenous black.

The PAlestinian-Israeli conflict resonates in the mind of some, most notably in the middle east. Unfortunately, the local politicians in many Muslim countries are more than happy to exploit the plight of the Palestinians to score points, and pissing on Israel is a nice way to get votes. But that pattern is present in many countries, including Europe:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hung ... BN20121127
Newbie
Jan 30, 2017
78 posts
4 upvotes
titaniumtux wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 10:33 pm
My opinions don't reflect RFD and moderation must be done without bias.

You say Palestine was peaceful prior to the world wars, but that was prior to the "Jewish state", so who did they have to fight?

Never said it was the Mufti's idea. Point is, Adolf had a grand Islamic scholar to fist-bump over mutual opinions.

You're using the same argument as before, that there are good and bad apples in all baskets. The concern is that there is a much larger proportion of Muslim anti-Semites and that act on their anti-Semitism than in any other group. If a fifth of the world's population is Muslim, yet nine out of ten of those who express anti-Semitic actions are Muslim, we have an issue.

I do admit it's quite possible that a majority of Muslims may be moderate, and may not be anti-Semetic. I do believe there are many "good Muslims", but this does not negate the disproportionately high number of Muslims who don't share your views. Hence the thread suggesting we turn to the sources :D
A big source of this hate toward the Jewish people was the creation of a state on Arab land belonging to Muslims and Christians. Now before the creation of that state there were many Jews who lived there without problem or at least nothing compared to what's going on today.
Muslims are not perfect most Muslims come from countries that have been destroyed or at war, they will have different way of thinking then anyone of us. If we lived or have family living under occupation or under an invasion or at war in general we would all have a very different view on those countries hurting us.
Banned
Aug 2, 2017
1219 posts
120 upvotes
Logtown
Mylocosta wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 9:39 am
A big source of this hate toward the Jewish people was the creation of a state on Arab land belonging to Muslims and Christians. Now before the creation of that state there were many Jews who lived there without problem or at least nothing compared to what's going on today.
Muslims are not perfect most Muslims come from countries that have been destroyed or at war, they will have different way of thinking then anyone of us. If we lived or have family living under occupation or under an invasion or at war in general we would all have a very different view on those countries hurting us.
I think you're kinda on the right track.

The UN and west intervening in the region undoubtedly has increased conflict. Countries like the US and Russia have also helped weaponize both sides of the conflict, investing more in perpetuating than helping solve. Their contribution in recent times is most certainly noted, but it's not creating something that isn't there already.

However, to say in any way "without problem" is a flat out lie, and a misrepresentation of the fact that Muslims can't even live peacefully with other sects of the same religion. The intra-religion conflicts have never stopped throughout history and especially continue to this day, especially in regions where Muslims are the majority and above.
Moderator
User avatar
May 8, 2009
1855 posts
502 upvotes
45.420833°N, 75.69°W
AndySixx wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 10:27 am
I think you're kinda on the right track.

The UN and west intervening in the region undoubtedly has increased conflict. Countries like the US and Russia have also helped weaponize both sides of the conflict, investing more in perpetuating than helping solve. Their contribution in recent times is most certainly noted, but it's not creating something that isn't there already.

However, to say in any way "without problem" is a flat out lie, and a misrepresentation of the fact that Muslims can't even live peacefully with other sects of the same religion. The intra-religion conflicts have never stopped throughout history and especially continue to this day, especially in regions where Muslims are the majority and above.
+1

This.

It's understood that Indonesian and Filipino Muslims who have virtually no contact with Jews will probably not feel strongly about them.

That doesn't prevent them from exposure to radical scholars, travel to the Gulf countries (pligrimage or work), etc. where they may be influenced by those who may take their scriptures more seriously and join a Jihadi group, or even at very least participate in dark web user groups or even fund Jihadi activities.

Thread title isn't even narrowed down to Jews being the only victims of Jihadis. Qu'ran 9:73
Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell.
Disbelievers includes all non-Muslims. I will exclude all self-declared Muslims from this group (even if they don't pray or fast). Hypocrites, however, not only includes those who do not pray or fast, but could be Muslims of a different sect (Sunni vs. Shia or Ahmadiyya, etc.). Also, we know what the Muslims do with Apostates.

Still don't believe me on what how Islam preceives the Jews, Christians and Polytheists? Qu'ran 98:6
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
I'm quoting international translations. "People of the Scriptures" or "People of the Book" are the Jews and Christians. Islam says such people are the worst of creatures.

So, even if you're a Muslim from Thailand and have never met a Jew, your scriptures tell you what you're expected to know about them, theologically.

Fact is, if Muhammad were to be born in the 21st century, he'd be rejected quickly for anti-Semitism. If he were to quote fairy tales and claim them to be devine revelation, his claims would quickly be refuted by people with smartphones who would web search whatever he says. :D
Motorola phone. Linux on 2xcomputers. Brew beer & wine @home.
Home service reseller internet + FPL + antenna with streaming on smart TV
Wireless 1 line w/ Virgin on QC plan, few lines w/ Koodo to get phones, couple FreedomPop SIM's for roaming
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
16467 posts
1764 upvotes
Montreal
titaniumtux wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 11:38 am
Thread title isn't even narrowed down to Jews being the only victims of Jihadis. Qu'ran 9:73


Disbelievers includes all non-Muslims. I will exclude all self-declared Muslims from this group (even if they don't pray or fast). Hypocrites, however, not only includes those who do not pray or fast, but could be Muslims of a different sect (Sunni vs. Shia or Ahmadiyya, etc.). Also, we know what the Muslims do with Apostates.

Still don't believe me on what how Islam preceives the Jews, Christians and Polytheists? Qu'ran 98:6


I'm quoting international translations. "People of the Scriptures" or "People of the Book" are the Jews and Christians. Islam says such people are the worst of creatures.

So, even if you're a Muslim from Thailand and have never met a Jew, your scriptures tell you what you're expected to know about them, theologically.
Really, are we back at quoting scripture?

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)




Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Fact is, if Muhammad were to be born in the 21st century, he'd be rejected quickly for anti-Semitism. If he were to quote fairy tales and claim them to be devine revelation, his claims would quickly be refuted by people with smartphones who would web search whatever he says. :D
And Jesus would have been thrown in the nuthouse. Moses would have been tried and convicted infanticide, fratricide, inciting a rebellion and illegal toxic dumping into a public waterway.
Banned
Aug 2, 2017
1219 posts
120 upvotes
Logtown
Now that we've moved onto the Old Testament I assume the defense of Islam has been vacated.
Sr. Member
Jul 30, 2010
945 posts
106 upvotes
AndySixx wrote:
Nov 11th, 2017 2:20 am
Now that we've moved onto the Old Testament I assume the defense of Islam has been vacated.
Don't they call that a #whataboutism?

Top