Automotive

Myth or truth about ATF fluid changes?

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Myth or truth about ATF fluid changes?

Watching Scotty on this topic is he full of bull or does he have sense when it comes to ATF fluid change? My car is going to be needing that in 7,000 kilometer


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I would lean towards trusting the word of an experienced, (and honest) mechanic over than of an engineer.

Engineers do their due diligence to design how something is supposed to work, whereas a mechanic will see how things actually work.

Often the two paths diverge radically. This is why we have car reviews and mechanics that break down what cars were designed well and what cars were designed poorly.

PS. I also trust Scotty.
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LeisureSuitL wrote: I would lean towards trusting the word of an experienced, (and honest) mechanic over than of an engineer.

Engineers do their due diligence to design how something is supposed to work, whereas a mechanic will see how things actually work.

Often the two paths diverge radically. This is why we have car reviews and mechanics that break down what cars were designed well and what cars were designed poorly.

PS. I also trust Scotty.
You're also forgetting a group, lawyers.

Firstly, it is very rare that automakers make their own transmissions. For example, the Germans (and the Koreans, and sometimes the "Brits") source their transmissions from ZF.

ZF is the one that started making these lifetime fill transmissions. I'm sure they have engineers who do the testing and design these things to last a "lifetime". That said, what does lifetime mean?

Sure, mechanics like Scotty are good and honest, and their recommendation can in fact be helpful. But let's stop here and take a minute.

Let's say that ZF states their transmission fluid is lifetime, and that the cause of a failure after 8 years ended up as being identified due to a lack of changing out the fluid - then, well, ZF is going to be on the hook after the carmaker gets sued by the customer.

So that's where I am torn. From a legal perspective it would be so incredibly easy to take a carmaker, and thus ZF to court, indirectly, and get a payout. There are legal ramifications for saying something is a lifetime fill, when, we all know, nothing is truly lifetime (other than, say, taxes).
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Scotty is a lunatic and I had to unsubscribe to him a while ago because some of what he says is total BS (and the ranting). He's very opinionated but needs to know when he's out of his league or doesn't fully understand something.

But in this case, he is 100% spot on on everything he said, so I won't repeat it.

As for mechanics vs engineers, they overlap quite a bit, but some engineers lack experience, and some mechanics lack theory or technical knowledge. The main problem with engineers is that they are limited by budgets set by accountants and timelines set by often clueless managers. However, if left unchecked, engineers would take forever to release anything if it wasn't perfect, and be way over budget.
Koenigsegg is a good example of what engineers can do with nearly unlimited budgets.

Lifetime fills really only mean for the lifetime of the warranty, because that's all the car makers care about. If you want your car to last, change all fluids regularly.
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I definitely don't trust "lifetime" fluids
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+1 I agree with what hes saying here.

If you maintain it properly at the recommended intervals or slightly sooner it will last a long time. If you wait until you have 150k to change the fluid/filter then you will likely run into an issue.

My parents bought a used car a few years ago, it had over 100k on it. Well the transmission was never serviced so we took it to change the filter/oil and it actually started slipping a bit going from 1st to 2nd. We drove it for half a year or so but it was the same, we ended up doing the service again to see if that would help but actually made it slightly worse. Shortly after we traded it in but perfect example of what hes saying.
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sickcars wrote: +1 I agree with what hes saying here.

If you maintain it properly at the recommended intervals or slightly sooner it will last a long time. If you wait until you have 150k to change the fluid/filter then you will likely run into an issue.

My parents bought a used car a few years ago, it had over 100k on it. Well the transmission was never serviced so we took it to change the filter/oil and it actually started slipping a bit going from 1st to 2nd. We drove it for half a year or so but it was the same, we ended up doing the service again to see if that would help but actually made it slightly worse. Shortly after we traded it in but perfect example of what hes saying.
I'm living through this right now... Bought a used minivan with 120,000 km and found out afterwards that the previous owner did a transmission fluid flush (all fluids actually) right before selling it because he wanted the new owners to have a worry free vehicle. Guess what has started slipping that never slipped before?!? Had the van for 8 months and the hotter the transmission gets, the worse it slips but only from a dead stop. Fluid doesn't have enough 'grit' for the torque converter... Gonna try Lucas transmission fix and hope it solves the issue....

As for Scotty, he's dead on this one.
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kr0zet wrote: I'm living through this right now... Bought a used minivan with 120,000 km and found out afterwards that the previous owner did a transmission fluid flush (all fluids actually) right before selling it because he wanted the new owners to have a worry free vehicle. Guess what has started slipping that never slipped before?!? Had the van for 8 months and the hotter the transmission gets, the worse it slips but only from a dead stop. Fluid doesn't have enough 'grit' for the torque converter... Gonna try Lucas transmission fix and hope it solves the issue....

As for Scotty, he's dead on this one.
very common problem..to boot..unless you bought the vehicle new..you don't know the true mileage (very easy to roll back odo these days)...there is a line for tranny service and when crossed..you have to be very carefull...no flushes...careful and gradual drain and fill...maybe 2 litres at a time over months of use...you dont want to disturb built up varnish and clog all those little channels...doing it gradually will save headaches later.
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engineered wrote: Lifetime fills really only mean for the lifetime of the warranty, because that's all the car makers care about. If you want your car to last, change all fluids regularly.
This is not the first time I have heard this argument, but I'm not 100% convinced.

Why?

Well, automakers are now selling more factory endorsed, or factory recommended extended warranties. They have to live with the costs of their own decisions. Audi, as an example, allows one to buy an extended warranty to 10 years, 200k total. Mercedes, 7 years, 160K.

So I'm not 100% convinced that automakers only care about the 3 or 4 year new vehicle warranty here.
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cardguy wrote: very common problem..to boot..unless you bought the vehicle new..you don't know the true mileage (very easy to roll back odo these days)...
That is not only illegal, and fraudulent (if not reported). It's also very difficult to do for any modern car.

This isn't Ferris Bueller's day off
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angryaudifanatic wrote: That is not only illegal, and fraudulent (if not reported). It's also very difficult to do for any modern car.

This isn't Ferris Bueller's day off
difficult my arse!...takes about 10 minutes and a laptop (and from $150-300)...especially on newer cars...
also...where is it in the criminal code...and why wouldn't the police charge a curbsider when both the former owner (whos name was still on the ownership) and myself (the buyer) had the curbsider dead to rights on a roll back

..cop said it was a civil matter..not criminal
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cardguy wrote: very common problem..to boot..unless you bought the vehicle new..you don't know the true mileage (very easy to roll back odo these days)...there is a line for tranny service and when crossed..you have to be very carefull...no flushes...careful and gradual drain and fill...maybe 2 litres at a time over months of use...you dont want to disturb built up varnish and clog all those little channels...doing it gradually will save headaches later.
ODO was not rolled back, it was a private sale from the original owner with all service records, and a co-worker. He took it into the dealership for an oil change and was talked into a transmission flush, engine flush, coolant flush all because he was selling the vehicle and it would 'add value' for the new owners peace of mind. He spent 1/4 of what I paid for it on his last service visit, which was suppose to be an oil change. It just sucks that the transmission flush may have been what is causing the problems now...
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You would think its hard to do, for the average person we would have no idea. For somebody who knows this type of stuff its easy. It gets done very often on higher end/performance cars.
angryaudifanatic wrote: That is not only illegal, and fraudulent (if not reported). It's also very difficult to do for any modern car.

This isn't Ferris Bueller's day off
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Hopefully the lucas helps you out
kr0zet wrote: I'm living through this right now... Bought a used minivan with 120,000 km and found out afterwards that the previous owner did a transmission fluid flush (all fluids actually) right before selling it because he wanted the new owners to have a worry free vehicle. Guess what has started slipping that never slipped before?!? Had the van for 8 months and the hotter the transmission gets, the worse it slips but only from a dead stop. Fluid doesn't have enough 'grit' for the torque converter... Gonna try Lucas transmission fix and hope it solves the issue....

As for Scotty, he's dead on this one.
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kr0zet wrote: ODO was not rolled back, it was a private sale from the original owner with all service records, and a co-worker. He took it into the dealership for an oil change and was talked into a transmission flush, engine flush, coolant flush all because he was selling the vehicle and it would 'add value' for the new owners peace of mind. He spent 1/4 of what I paid for it on his last service visit, which was suppose to be an oil change. It just sucks that the transmission flush may have been what is causing the problems now...
I hope they used the right oil, as they could fubar using a generic brand
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cardguy wrote: difficult my arse!...takes about 10 minutes and a laptop (and from $150-300)...especially on newer cars...
also...where is it in the criminal code...and why wouldn't the police charge a curbsider when both the former owner (whos name was still on the ownership) and myself (the buyer) had the curbsider dead to rights on a roll back

..cop said it was a civil matter..not criminal
Fraud (misrepresentation) is a violation of the Criminal Code of Canada. If you sell a car, you are required to check a box that states something along the lines that the mileage was not altered.

Criminal Code of Canada, Section 380(1) to be precise.
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angryaudifanatic wrote: Fraudulent misrepresentation is a violation of the Criminal Code of Canada. If you sell a car, you are required to check a box that states something along the lines that the mileage was not altered.
when was the last case of this and how severe was the punishment...also does this apply to regular people selling "as is"?

its easy to"say" something is illegal...but so is speeding yet 99% of the time its happening....

is this reserved for multiple offenders or would they charge someone on the one off......just saying something is illegal is not a deterent
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angryaudifanatic wrote: This is not the first time I have heard this argument, but I'm not 100% convinced.

Why?

Well, automakers are now selling more factory endorsed, or factory recommended extended warranties. They have to live with the costs of their own decisions. Audi, as an example, allows one to buy an extended warranty to 10 years, 200k total. Mercedes, 7 years, 160K.

So I'm not 100% convinced that automakers only care about the 3 or 4 year new vehicle warranty here.
Extended warranties are also just money makers for the dealers. Statistically you will need less in repairs than the cost of the warranty over that period. A lot of those also require regular servicing, so more profit for dealer.
If there is a failure, the dealer's cost for a new trans (non-M/AMG/RS) is going to be less than than a $4k warranty.
It's all actuarial calculations. Just like they do with the cost of a recall vs wrongful death lawsuits (ahem GM with their crappy ignition cylinders).

Not being true lifetime doesn't mean the trans is going to blow up a day after the 4 year warranty expires. Most will go fine beyond 8 years. If transmissions truly lasted a lifetime they would up their warranty to 10 years which would be a huge selling point over the other makers.

You're an Audi guy, you know the problems with engine oil issues, timing chains/belts, DSG service, etc.

Also, by 10 years, chances are the seals have leaked and it's been topped off with new fluid.
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angryaudifanatic wrote: Let's say that ZF states their transmission fluid is lifetime, and that the cause of a failure after 8 years ended up as being identified due to a lack of changing out the fluid - then, well, ZF is going to be on the hook after the carmaker gets sued by the customer.
There's a reason class action lawsuits exist - the chance of an individual suing a carmaker successfully on his own is pretty much absolutely zero. Do you have the $50K your lawyer will want just to file such a suit? And if you did win all you would get is a free transmission and some jugs of tranny fluid to put into it. The carmaker just has to claim owner negligence was responsible for the transmission failure. They'll win every time - they'll have dozens of experts who will swear that the fluid wasn't responsible for the failure and they'll carefully explain how they determined some form of customer negligence was.

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