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Swerny wrote:
Feb 6th, 2018 1:23 pm
1100+ yards of offense and 1 combined punt.

No defense whatsoever.
On that note, Brady was the first quarterback to ever throw for 500 yards in a game and lose!! (playoffs or regular season)
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was a really fun and great super bowl... very glad that the Patriots lost...

I am still in the one that doesnt think Brady is the GOAT..even with the 5 Super Bowl Rings... as the Pats fan earlier said, they got VERY fortunate.. almost to the point things seemed rigged...to have won their last 2 Super Bowls... still have no idea HOW Seattle doesnt run with Lynch on 2nd and goal from the 2 yard line.. with a time out.. you telling me Lynch cant punch it in in 3 tries? if you lose the superbowl because he cant get in that way.. so be it... he was one of the top RB in league and the strongest.... as for the win vs. Atlanta.. the comeback was great, dont get me wrong... but after Julio Jones makes that great catch at the Pats 21 yard line with 4 minutes left, how do you not just run the ball 3 times and hit the FG to go up by 11 points.. you then are up a converted TD and FG with like 2 min left... or 4 min left and 0 timeouts for Pats... ridiculous... yes a 40 yard FG is not a guarantee but its probably at least 80%+...

even the superbowls earlier.. viniteri with game winners as time runs out in both of them... only the philly win did they really do well and got ahead in the 4th and take a 10 point lead...
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grappos13 wrote:
Feb 6th, 2018 6:14 pm
was a really fun and great super bowl... very glad that the Patriots lost...

I am still in the one that doesnt think Brady is the GOAT..even with the 5 Super Bowl Rings... as the Pats fan earlier said, they got VERY fortunate.. almost to the point things seemed rigged...to have won their last 2 Super Bowls... still have no idea HOW Seattle doesnt run with Lynch on 2nd and goal from the 2 yard line.. with a time out.. you telling me Lynch cant punch it in in 3 tries? if you lose the superbowl because he cant get in that way.. so be it... he was one of the top RB in league and the strongest.... as for the win vs. Atlanta.. the comeback was great, dont get me wrong... but after Julio Jones makes that great catch at the Pats 21 yard line with 4 minutes left, how do you not just run the ball 3 times and hit the FG to go up by 11 points.. you then are up a converted TD and FG with like 2 min left... or 4 min left and 0 timeouts for Pats... ridiculous... yes a 40 yard FG is not a guarantee but its probably at least 80%+...

even the superbowls earlier.. viniteri with game winners as time runs out in both of them... only the philly win did they really do well and got ahead in the 4th and take a 10 point lead...
I hear ya and always said yes the Pats are machines but those 2 SBs were gifted due to boneheaded decisions from the other team...It's as if they suddenly forgot how to play football in addition to basic math.

Don't even get me started on the early whistle vs Jax. Pats shouldn't even been to the Show this year.

As for GOAT, I'd like there to be some debate as well but this guy's argument is Pretty compelling, how do you argue against that?
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/02/05/ ... arterback/
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^ read that article.. i still think Brady is a great QB, dont get me wrong.. but i think it also has a LOT to do with the system and coaching that he has played in... so as i mentioned above.. last 2 Super Bowls he won were basically by insanely, never seen before, bonehead coaching plays.. and his first 2 were on last second FG's.... Brady was the favourite in 4 of his 5 wins... only the first one, against Rams, where the defense was the real star, were they not favourites...how about his 3 loses? he was also the favourite in all 3...

as for the debate for Montana... yes he is 4-0 in the finals... and yes, he didnt get there anywhere near as many times as Brady as im sure he lost a lot of playoff games as well.. but look at the wins by SF/Montana

1st - 5 point win after CIN got a TD with 10 sec left...so so up 12 with 15 sec left...SF favoured 1.5pts
2nd - 22 point win... SF favoured by 3.5
3rd - 4 pt win at end of game...SF favoured by 7
4th - 45 point win...SF favoured by 12

2 dominating wins... another that was basically a for sure win unless a crazy thing happened.. and one clutch win....Brady with 2 last second FG wins... another with a late game FG to take 10 pt lead (similar to one of SF wins) and 2 late wins by bonehead opposing coaches..

i dunno... just seems to me that Montana was more dominant when it came to playing in the superbowl than Brady more having to try and comeback every time instead of just dominating the game...

I am a massive Peyton Manning fan since the day he was draft... basically your top 5 right now IMO in no particular order is Brady, Manning, Montana, Farve and Marino... with Brees about to overtake Marino and maybe Farve..
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Jan 3, 2003
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I am a massive Peyton Manning fan since the day he was draft... basically your top 5 right now IMO in no particular order is Brady, Manning, Montana, Farve and Marino... with Brees about to overtake Marino and maybe Farve..
in a lot of cases systems make quarterbacks. Brady has played his whole career in one system, a system that made Matt Cassel look good the year Brady went down. Manning, Favre, Montana, Brees all had success with more than one team. If Brady leaves the Patriots and plays at a similar level with another team then I'll call him the GOAT.
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Birdman wrote:
Feb 6th, 2018 11:07 pm
in a lot of cases systems make quarterbacks. Brady has played his whole career in one system, a system that made Matt Cassel look good the year Brady went down. Manning, Favre, Montana, Brees all had success with more than one team. If Brady leaves the Patriots and plays at a similar level with another team then I'll call him the GOAT.
Here's the thing about the Patriots "system"... 2007 that system went 16-0 with Brady. In 2008, went Brady tore his ACL, Matt Cassel took a nearly identical team to 11-5 with the same offensive weapons that Brady had. Brady threw 50 TDs and the Patriots scored a total of 589 points. Cassel only threw 21 TDs and the Patriots scored a total of 410 points. That's the difference. Cassel only looked good because during that time their offense was full of talent. Patriots were 8th in offense with Cassel. With Brady they were not only 1st, but set NFL records. As for others who started for the Patriots, Garoppolo... well turns out he's legit. Brissett... well he didn't have good games.

Also that system has evolved greatly over the years. Run heavy to pass heavy. From down field passing to short passing screens to slots and back again. They made double TE sexy again. They even had that ultra fast no huddle which actually forced changes to the rules. It's been 17 years with 3 different offensive coordinators where Brady got to the SB with each one. How can you say Brady is a system QB when you can't even define what that system is in totality of the 17 years?
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TheRealVinsanity wrote:
Feb 6th, 2018 9:13 pm
McDaniels to replace Belichick eventually?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2234 ... d-patriots
Sort of makes you wonder if there's more going on with Luck's shoulder than the Colts are letting on. Feel for the assistant coaches that apparently signed because they were under the impression that they'd be working with McDaniels.

Side note: I've been wondering about this for a couple of days and was hoping someone would be able to answer it for me.

In the case of a defensive pass interference with no time remaining on the clock, what happens?
So if there had been PI by one of the Eagles players on Gronk and he was in the end zone for the Hail Mary, what happens then?

Thanks guys!
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The game cannot end on a defensive penalty.

So if there was a PI called on the Eagles, they would run another play from the spot of the foul.
IcedUpSquirrel wrote:
Feb 7th, 2018 1:00 pm
Sort of makes you wonder if there's more going on with Luck's shoulder than the Colts are letting on. Feel for the assistant coaches that apparently signed because they were under the impression that they'd be working with McDaniels.

Side note: I've been wondering about this for a couple of days and was hoping someone would be able to answer it for me.

In the case of a defensive pass interference with no time remaining on the clock, what happens?
So if there had been PI by one of the Eagles players on Gronk and he was in the end zone for the Hail Mary, what happens then?

Thanks guys!
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TheRealVinsanity wrote:
Feb 7th, 2018 1:09 pm
The game cannot end on a defensive penalty.

So if there was a PI called on the Eagles, they would run another play from the spot of the foul.
And if the Pats had scored on the ensuing play with no time on the clock, they'd still be given the chance for the 2 point conversion, right?

Thanks!
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IcedUpSquirrel wrote:
Feb 7th, 2018 1:15 pm
And if the Pats had scored on the ensuing play with no time on the clock, they'd still be given the chance for the 2 point conversion, right?

Thanks!
I would think so, wasn't there a PO game won in OT w/o time left and they made the teams come out to do the 1 pt conversion? Ofc the winning team just knelt.
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^ yes the Pats would be given a chance for the 2pt convert... as mentioned in the commentary, the Pats shoulda took two shots at the endzone instead of that incomplete pass to the sidelines to try to gain 5-7 yards...two shots to get a catch...2 shots to get a pass interference penalty.. etc...

as for the person talking about going from 16-0 to 11-5 with Cassel. To me that more cements that it is the system that the team is really good. That you can bring a crappy backup like Cassel in and still finish 11-5..

and really, are you trying to compare year over year? i dont see you comparing the year BEFORE the 16-0.. that year they went 12-4 with Brady only having 24 TDs...or what about the year AFTER Cassel ... Brady only went 10-6 with 28 TD...
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grappos13 wrote:
Feb 6th, 2018 6:55 pm
^ read that article.. i still think Brady is a great QB, dont get me wrong.. but i think it also has a LOT to do with the system and coaching that he has played in... so as i mentioned above.. last 2 Super Bowls he won were basically by insanely, never seen before, bonehead coaching plays.. and his first 2 were on last second FG's.... Brady was the favourite in 4 of his 5 wins... only the first one, against Rams, where the defense was the real star, were they not favourites...how about his 3 loses? he was also the favourite in all 3...

as for the debate for Montana... yes he is 4-0 in the finals... and yes, he didnt get there anywhere near as many times as Brady as im sure he lost a lot of playoff games as well.. but look at the wins by SF/Montana

1st - 5 point win after CIN got a TD with 10 sec left...so so up 12 with 15 sec left...SF favoured 1.5pts
2nd - 22 point win... SF favoured by 3.5
3rd - 4 pt win at end of game...SF favoured by 7
4th - 45 point win...SF favoured by 12

2 dominating wins... another that was basically a for sure win unless a crazy thing happened.. and one clutch win....Brady with 2 last second FG wins... another with a late game FG to take 10 pt lead (similar to one of SF wins) and 2 late wins by bonehead opposing coaches..

i dunno... just seems to me that Montana was more dominant when it came to playing in the superbowl than Brady more having to try and comeback every time instead of just dominating the game...

I am a massive Peyton Manning fan since the day he was draft... basically your top 5 right now IMO in no particular order is Brady, Manning, Montana, Farve and Marino... with Brees about to overtake Marino and maybe Farve..
I enjoy these conversations, so here goes.

The AFC in the 80s and for most of the 90s was very, very weak, so NFC teams including the Niners, Cowboys, Redskins etc easily rolled over the AFC teams for Super Bowl victories since the AFC was not competitive.

Montana had the greatest wide receiver in history Jerry Rice on his offence and the team was absolutely loaded with top talent on offense and defence.. Dwight Clark, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, Fred Dean, Randy Cross, Dwight Hicks..list goes on...
The Pats of the last 17 years have been basically Brady and a bunch of interchangeable parts on both offence and defense. Gronk is good(when healthy) but Brady's teams never had the talent level of those great Niner teams.
So for the most part, the Pats have been a one man team.

Brady's SB record is not perfect, but, very late in those 3 losses, he had his team in the lead.

One thing common to both teams, they had what were/are considered genius coaches. Bill Walsh with his famed west coast offence, innovative defenses and Bill Belichick who needs no introduction.

In the Brady vs Montana debate, the Montana backers can take solace in the fact that Brady was a big Montana fan growing up and he is great because he tries to emulate his childhood hero :)
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grappos13 wrote:
Feb 7th, 2018 4:49 pm
^ yes the Pats would be given a chance for the 2pt convert... as mentioned in the commentary, the Pats shoulda took two shots at the endzone instead of that incomplete pass to the sidelines to try to gain 5-7 yards...two shots to get a catch...2 shots to get a pass interference penalty.. etc...

as for the person talking about going from 16-0 to 11-5 with Cassel. To me that more cements that it is the system that the team is really good. That you can bring a crappy backup like Cassel in and still finish 11-5..

and really, are you trying to compare year over year? i dont see you comparing the year BEFORE the 16-0.. that year they went 12-4 with Brady only having 24 TDs...or what about the year AFTER Cassel ... Brady only went 10-6 with 28 TD...
The identity for the Patriots from 2000 to 2006 was a defensive team that heavily ran the ball and played field position. There were no 1,000 yard receivers during that time. Not even with Bledsoe.

2007 the offense "system" dramatically changed. They added Moss and Welker. Both got over a 1,000 yards. This wasn't the ball control run it on first down type of offense anymore.

2008 the offense "system" was very similar, hence why it's comparable to 2007. Cassel lacked the ability to read defenses and call audibles. He also lacked Brady's accuracy.

2009 the offense "system" was again similar, but 2 big things hampered the offense:
1. Brady was coming back from not playing for a year. You can't expect him to be at the top of his game. Also he was never 100% healthy. Brady played entire season with 3 broken ribs! And a third of the season with a broken finger on his throwing hand.
2. McDaniels left to become the HC of Denver. Nobody replaced him. Patriots literally went with no OC in 2009 and 2010 seasons. Patriots had unusually high delay of game penalties and wasted timeouts which is what happens when you have multiple people (O'Brien, Belichick, and even Caserio) calling in plays.

Brady still finished that season 5th in yards, 6th in TDs and won the come back player of the year.

As for why that year their records wasn't great. It had to do more with the changes in defense. The defense overall was solid, but they kept falling apart late in games. Broncos got a late TD and won it with a FG in OT where Patriots never has a possession in OT (back when first team scores wins). Manning (then with the Colts) came back and won with a 2 minute TD drive at the end of the game by 1 point. Dolphins come back late in the game. Texans scored 21 points in the 4th to come back and win (though this loss was a meaningless game as it was the last game of the season and Patriots already clinched their division with no chance at a bye week). I'm not saying all of the 4 games should have ended up as wins, but some of them would have if their defense didn't lose key long time players. Bruschi and Harrison retired. Then Vrabel was traded for a 2nd round pick. Then Seymour traded for a 1st round pick. If you look at Expected WL (advanced metric that looks at total points scored and total points allowed and mathematically calculates what the record should have been), then you'll see that how they performed in 2009 is more indicative of a 12-4 record than 10-6.

In 2010, play calling was fixed to O'Brien calling all the plays and Brady 100% healthy. Despite trading away their biggest offensive weapon (Moss), their record was 14-2, Brady led the league in TD and won the MVP. BTW 2010 the offensive "system" changed again. 2010 changed to a spread offense with Brady commonly hitting 6-7 targets each game and the start of the double TE sets.

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